| Author |
Message |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 8:25 pm: |     |
Cas,
Thank you for that address on the IJ. Now that I have a printer, this will be great as I too can have this material to read over. It's very hard to read something via the internet and remember everything, verse, Scripture, renderings etc.
God Bless you,
Denise
P.S. I have around 200 floppies of copied material that I want to print out. I need parchment...:) |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 10:07 pm: | |
Richard,
I find it strange to be handed greek or hebrew during a Bible study. But then again, it seems as though I've been going in this direction all along. Last year, I had stated to someone in a different denomination that I wanted to learn the greek and hebrew lanquages. They brought me a lexicon (greek) and I had no clue how to use the thing. I never did read it nor open it but once. Since then, I have mentioned to someone outside of any denomination that I wanted to go to school and learn greek and hebrew. Of course, I got a funny look over that. Since then, I have been encountering left and right both languages from either Bible studies or just them telling me what original word was used and in what language.
It seems as though all this is in place. I do know if I'm going to contend for the faith, then I MUST have an accurate knowledge of these languages. To this, I've been applying myself without an instructor. God help me.
Personally I would not tell anyone of the Gospel insisting that they have a knowledge of these other tongues, that would be ludicrous indeed.
However, if these studies are given to laity with innacurate greek or hebrew words used, then someone has to stand up. Most people will just take for granted what is being taught them, I don't. I realized that this could be a very good way of decieving people since they would expect the knowing of these languages means one has the TRUTH. BUT, in my searches, which is in next post, it is very evident that many words are alike in meaning but very different in spelling OR many words are alike in spelling but very different in meaning. Also too, begs the question, in what context is this word used or who is speaking, to whom it is spoken to and surrounding circumstances that can lead to alot of confusion if not educated. As in my case.
This only presses me the more, to go to school and become educated properly in the uses of different languages, most importantly Biblical tongues as I understand that there are 3 different ones for sure and unbeknownst to me perhaps more. Aramic is the one other I know of.
Interestly enough, I just had a sda friend pop in during the writing of this post. We began chatting about the Lord and the doctrine of soul sleep came up. I have to chuckle a bit as this day I had a study with the jws and the same subject of soul sleep was put to test. Now, I need to get into the original languages as to know how the word 'spirit' is used. How many uses and in what context etc. etc.. this is another group that hands me greek and hebrew besides the sdas. See the need or reason I had the desire to learn these languages now? I most certainly do and I believe that desire was given me by God.
I am convinced that alot of doctrine is not a salvific issue. On the other hand, if a particular doctrine keeps certain people from experiencing joy in the Lord Jesus or if a certain doctrine keeps some church goers aloof from those in the world that need to hear this message of the Gospel, then it is destructive in the most literal sense as far as I'm concerned. If by some means, someone can cause questions to arise within a cult member as to the validity of their beliefs, then there is perhaps a chance they will be open to this Good News. This is my line of thought anyhow.
Well, I will stop typing now. Later tonight I plan to post the results of this uneducated woman's search on particular issues studied this week with the cults. Until later, God willing.
God Bless,
Denise |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 10:29 pm: | |
Richard again,
I am now attending 5 Bible studies per week. The 5th one came in unexpectedly, as did the others for that matter, and it was an elderly lady that I did not know who heard that I read the Bible alot. So she came to my door and wanted to know if I would read the Bible with her. Of course to this, I said yes. Then she informed me that she wanted to know about the book of Isaiah. Instantly I thought of the story of the eunich in the desert. So, this last Sunday I went to her home, just her and myself attending. She is in her late 80s and did not know that David the psalmist died before Jesus, nor did she know that Jesus came from his line. There is a whole lot more that she didn't know and I felt privileged to know these things and to be able to teach in some respect.
Later in the week, she informed me that she had been talking to the neighbors and they are interested in coming to this study. I thought, wow, then I thought 'yikes!!! I couldn't imagine this to ever come about (me being teacher of sorts). I prayed to the Lord and explained to Him (yes I did) that I'm not a teacher and how can I do this??? What do I know? I was scared out of my mind over the thought of this whole thing. Still, I figured that the Lord knows what He is doing and this is all the more reason for me to study even more.
Well, just two days ago, she came to me with a big smile and informed me that a pastor had come to her door and that she had told him of our Bible studies. She further told me that he was interested and to that she told him that she would invite him except these studies are held on sundays and she presumed that he was doing his pastorial duty. It turns out that he is a pastor in a saturday keeping Church. So, as you can imagine, I was questioning 'how could this be happening?' My mind was trying to figure out if satan was warring against me or if God was testing me. I still don't know the answer but come saturday I will find out, hopefully. IN the meanwhile, I was given a study guide by this elderly lady that this particular pastor gave to her. I searched for a sign of adventism in it but so far have seen nothing of that sort. Still, my apprehension is pervasive and I keep praying.
In my mind, I keep imagining another study with someone that will hand me greek and hebrew with the expectation that I will just believe what they say. Oh dear, all studies with an exception of FAF (thank God!), seem to be clashes on a mild scale. Still, I pray that whatever comes of this 5th study will be to the glory of God. Pray.
God Bless,
Denise |
Maryann
| | Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 11:45 pm: | |
Hi Denise,
You are an inspiration to me!;-)
I have to go to Nevada this weekend so will be away from this addicting machine!
Maryann |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 12:07 am: | |
Maryann,
Drive carefully and if you happen to see a white owl...not to fret. :) You know a BIG God!
Hope to hear from you when you get back.
May God Bless you with safe passage,
Denise |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 12:20 am: | |
An uneducated search for words:
Lexicon for Strong's #2082-esoteros
comparative of 2080, adj
AV-inner 1, within 1;2
1) inner
1a) the inner space which is behind the veil
1b) the shrine, the Holy of Holies, said of heaven by a figure drawn from earthly temple
There are two instances of verses containing Strong's number 2082.
Act 16:24 "Who, having received such a charge, thrust them into the inner [2082] prison, and made their feet fast in the stocks."
Hebrews 6:19 "Which (hope) we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within [2082] the veil"
Blue Letter Bible http://www.blueletterbible.org |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 12:56 am: | |
More word searches from an uneducated woman:
Lexicon for Strong's #39-hagion
neuter of 40; adj.
AV-sanctuary 4, holy place 3, holiest of all 3, holiness 1;11
1)reverend, worthy of veneration
1a) of things which on account of some connection with God possess a certain distinction and claim to reverence, as places sacred to God which are not to be profaned.
1b) of persons whose services God employs, for example, apostles
2)set apart for God, to be as it were, exclusively his
3) services and offerings
3a) prepared for God with solemn rite, pure, clean
4) in a moral sense, pure sinless upright holy.
There are 11 instances of verses containing Strong's number 39.
Hebrews 8:2 "A minister of the sanctuary [39], and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man."
Hebrews 9:1 "Then verily the first (covenant) had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary [39]."
Hebrews 9:2 "For there was a tabernacle made, the first, wherein (was) the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread, which is called the sanctuary [39]."
Hebrews 9:3 "And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all [39] [39]."
Hebrews 9:8 "The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the Holiest of all [39] was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing."
Hebrews 9:12 "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place [39], having obtained eternal redemptioin (for us)."
Hebrews 9:24 "For Christ is not entered into the holy places [39] made with hands, (which are) the figures of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us."
Hebrews 10:19 "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the Holiest [39] by the blood of Jesus."
Hebrews 13:11 "For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary [39] by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp."
1769 King James Authorized Version with Wigram's Englishman's Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance (1843/1890)
Wilgram's Englishman's Greek Concordance (1839/1903)
identified using James Strong's numbers (1890) Corrections to Strong's numbers copyright by others.
"George Wigram's Englishman's Greek and Hebrew Concordances were produced in 1839 and 43 respectively and contain a complete listing of all occurrences of each unique Greek and Hebrew word in the New and Old Testaments. It was not until fifty years later that james Strong assigned numbers to each unique word in the Old and New Testaments and produced a dictionary listing each word with its number. This electronic text combines Wigram's identification (of each unique word's occurrence) and Strong's numbering system, using Strong's numbers to mark each location where Wigram identified a particular word. The result is a 100% accurate Strong's Concordance imbedded withing the KJV."
Courtesy of the good folks at Online Bible (Used with Permission). |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 1:21 am: | |
VAIL, THE SACRED:
MOSES COMMANDED TO MAKE: Exodus 26:31
MADE BY BEZALEEL FOR THE TABERNACLE: Exodus 36:35
SUSPENDED FROM FOUR PILLARS OF SHITTIM WOOD OVERLAID WITH GOLD: Exodus 26:32
HUNG BETWEEN THE HOLY AND MOST HOLY PLACE: Exodus 26:33 and Hebrews 9:3
DESIGNED TO CONCEAL THE ARK, MERCY SEAT, AND THE SYMBOL OF THE DIVINE PRESENCE: Exodus 40:3
THE HIGH PRIEST: Alone allowed to enter within; Hebrews 9:6,7
Allowed to enter but once a year; Leviticus 16:2 and Hebrews 9:7
Could not enter without blood; Leviticus 16:3 and Hebrews 9:7
MADE BY SOLOMON FOR THE TEMPLE: 2 Chronicles 3:14
WAS RENT AT THE DEATH OF OUR LORD: Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; and Luke 23:45
ILLUSTRATIVE: Of the obscurity of the Mosaic age; Hebrews 9:8
Of the flesh of Christ which concealed His divinity; Hebrews 10:20 and Isaiah 53:2
(Rending of,) of the death of Christ which opened heaven to saints; Hebrews 10:19,20 and 9:24
Torrey's New Topical Textbook. |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 1:46 am: | |
Lexicon for Stong's #2665-katapetasma
from a compound of 2596 and a congener of 4072; TDNT-3:628,429;nn
AV-veil 6; 6
1) a veil spread out, a curtain
1a) the name given to the two curtains in the temple at Jerusalem, one of them at the entrance to the temple separated the Holy Place from the outer court, the other veiled the Holy of Holies from the Holy Place.
There are 6 instances of verses containing Strong's number 2665.
Matthew 27:51 "And, behold, the veil [2665] of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent"
Mark 15:38 "And the veil [2665] of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom."
Luke 23:45 "And the sun was darkened, and the veil [2665] of the temple was rent in the midst."
Hebrews 6:19 Which (hope) we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil [2665]."
Hebrews 9:3 "And after the second veil [2665], the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all."
Hebrews 10:20 "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil [2665], that is to say, his flesh." |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 3:43 am: | |
KJV English Concordance for 'Most Holy Place':
The words 'most holy place' occur in 19 verses.
Exodus 26:33 "And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thous mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the 'Holy [place] and the Most Holy'."
Exodus 26:34 "And thou shalt put the mercy seat upon the ark of the testimony in the 'Most Holy' [place]."
Leviticus 6:25 "Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, saying, This [is] the law of the sin offering: In the 'place' where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD: it [is] 'Most Holy'."
Leviticus 7:6 "Every male among the priests shall eat thereof: it shall be eaten in the 'Holy Place': it [is] 'Most Holy'."
Leviticus 10:17 "Wherefore have ye not eaten the sin offering in the 'Holy Place', seeing it [is] 'Most Holy', and [God} hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD?"
Leviticus 14:13 "And he shall slay the lamb in the 'place' where he shall kill the sin offering and the burnt offering, in the 'Holy Place': for as the sin offering [is] the priest's, [so is] the trespass offering: it [is] 'Most Holy'."
Leviticus 24:9 "And it shall be Aaron's and his sons'; and they shall eat it in the 'Holy Place': for it [is] 'Most Holy' unto him of the offerings of the LORD made by fire by a perpetual statute."
Numbers 18:10 "In the 'Most Holy' [place] shalt thou eat it; every male shall eat it: it shall be 'Holy' unto thee."
1 Kings 6:16 "And he built twenty cubits on the sides of the house, both the floor and the walls with boards of cedar: he even built [them] for it within, [even] for the oracle, [even] for the 'Most Holy' [place]."
1 Kings 7:50 "And the bowls, and the snuffers, and the basons, and the spoons, and the censers [of] pure gold; and the hinges [of] gold, [both] for the doors of the inner house, [to wit], of the temple."
1 Kings 8:6 "And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his 'place', into the oracle of the house, to the 'Most Holy' [place, even] under the wings of the cherubims."
1 Chronicles 6:49 "But Aaron and his sons offered upon the altar of the burnt offering, and on the altar of incense, [and were appointed] for all the work of the [place] 'Most Holy', and to make an atonement for Israel, according to all that Moses the servant of God had commanded."
2 Chronicles 4:22 "And the snuffers. and the basons, and the spoons, and the censers, [of] pure gold: and the entry of the house, the inner doors thereof for the 'Most Holy' [place], and the doors of the house of the temple, [were of] gold."
2 Chronicles 5:7 "And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his 'place', to the oracle of the house, into the 'Most Holy' [place, even] under the wings of the cherubims:"
Psalms 46:4 "[There is] a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the 'Holy' [place] of the tabernacles of the most High."
Ezekiel 41:4 "So he measured the length thereof, twenty cubits; and the breadth, twenty cubits, before the temple: and he said unto me, This [is] the 'Most Holy' [place]."
Ezekiel 42:13 "Then said he unto me, The north chambers [and] the south chambers, which [are] before the separate 'place', they [be] 'Holy' chambers, where the priests that approach unto the LORD shall eat the 'Most Holy' things, and the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; for the 'place' [is] 'Holy'."
Ezekiel 45:3 "And of this measure shalt thou measure the length of five and twenty thousand, and the breadth of ten thousand: and in it shall be the sanctuary [and] the 'Most Holy' [place]." |
Richardjr
| | Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 5:41 pm: | |
Denise, I think it would be good if you learned Greek and Hebrew. And I know you would never use it with a person where it would be over their head. The point I was trying imperfectfully to make, is that either with English, Greek, or Hebrew we will still need the Holy Spirit and a method of interpeting Scripture. Richardjr |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 7:28 pm: | |
Richard,
I couldn't agree with you more. The Holy Spirit, He will guide us to all truth that we need. I do pray always that the Holy Spirit will direct me in all my ways. When it comes to these..oh, how shall I say this...rebuttals to heretical teachings, I really pray in earnest.
It appears that for all intents and purposes at this point in my walk, I am indeed going head to head with some that hold some high positions in the different Churches. When they are exercising their knowledge of greek, hebrew or araimic, I am somewhat at a loss, without knowing the languages myself, as to defending Truth.
I understand that the Holy Spirit guides us and am very grateful for His guidance. However, there are instances, many in my life, where these so called scholars will use their education as an axe. In so doing, whomever they are teaching, they off from the people, Truth. This is where I'm finding the necessity for fighting fire with fire. If, for example, someone does not know the Bible or doesn't even own one, how can they possibly discern Truth from deception? I could tell them that 'In the beginning God made the moon of blue cheese' and then go on to further my point with the use of some word that is not even english! They, having not read the Bible, but very impressed at my deliverance and supposed knowledge of this supposed truth, would probably believe me. I am not undermining the Holy Spirit but I am holding up the Bible as God's letter to us. From reading the Bible comes Truth. But if there are those that will tell us a falsehood, using the supposed original word in the supposed original language, then wouldn't it be expedient for me to know Truth from a lie? It is for us to learn and know the Truth. If it were not for the ones that translate it from the original languages to english, we would be forced to learning the original languages.
I know that in most instances, the Bible, is held up as Truth as it speaks. Here again, I would never think of bringing in a different language other than what that person understood. I would not bring in hebrew, greek etc. But since there are many heretical doctrines that use the supposed original word to defend their heresy, I must be able to counteract the counterfeit. If not for anyone else but me. Hopefully though, the Lord will honor my uneducated attempts at exposing the heresies and doctrines of devils. If but one pastor or one high ranking person within a system of false teachings sees this and IF they have the courage to expose it, I feel that the Lord's will was accomplished.
I realize only too well, that many have gone before me and they were educated. This still does not hamper this burning within that compells me to defend with all my might and all my strength and all the knowledge the Lord gives me, the Truth.
On the other hand, this could all be in vain due to my grandiose thinking and nothing would be accomplished. If that turns out to be the case, I can only be humbled by it and learn from it as well.
This life of mine is one that I never could have planned myself. Something in me, with everything happening the way it is, is telling me that this is where I need to be. I cannot do otherwise.
I know that I'm learning the profound language originally used when the scrolls were written, absolutely amazing. Deep. And Deep calls to deep.
God Bless,
Denise |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 7:34 pm: | |
Richard,
When we talk about the Holy Spirit, I do believe that the Holy Spirit will also guide me in the basic understanding of these languages to the point that I can at least stand on both feet and not be knocked down by any principality or power that will shoot fiery darts my way. And believe me, those darts are just zooming at me!
With all my heart, this I believe.
God Bless,
Denise |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 7:49 pm: | |
Richard again,
Thank you for encouraging me to the learning of these different languages. You are the first person to basically say 'Go fer it!' Most all others have tried in vain to halt not only me going to Church, but reading the Bible, my use of concordances, different Bible translations, the internet, the greek and hebrew searches I do online and a host of other things. Now, since I have a printer (two days now), I have had one tell me that she felt that I shouldn't print these things out or that whatever comes off of the internet is 'not true'. I might add another experience or two while I'm typing. There were people in the Church arranging for the sale of my computer when I first got it back. When it had to go back into the shop, they were much more at ease. Now I have it again and not only so but a printer to boot (no pun intended)! Now I'm a printing crazed woman with a spirit of a berean..:)
God Bless,
Denise |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 1:30 am: | |
Hello again,
I have an interesting thing sitting in front of me right now. It is a Daily Devotional sent out every day by the White Estate.org.
Remember on October 25th how I had gone to the length of typing out the actual study handed me regarding the IJ/Sanctuary? Well, in that study it is contended that Hebrews 6:19 is not referring to the 'Most Holy Place' or 'Inner Sanctuary'.
At 1:55am November 14, 2000 I recieved my Daily Devotional from the White Estate.
Here is the first few lines:
Faith in the Atonement
We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain. Hebrews 6:19
That's all I will type of the devotional as I'm sure nobody is much interested in the entire thing. However if anyone is, I will type it here in it's entirety.
Now I find it interesting that the sdas are handing me material disputing the interpretation of Hebrews 6:19 as interpreted by Albion F. Ballenger and then turning around in the same 5 week period and sending out a devotional from the White Estate establishing Albion F. Ballenger's interpretation of the same verse. Hmmmm, they should really get this together, don't ya think?
If you would like to recieve daily devotionals, for an interesting conflict within the sda Church and their current teachings mixed with egw teachings et-cetera. Go to devotional@whiteestate.org
You can count on this devotional coming to your mailbox on your computer each and everyday. See what you were taught and see how it matches with or doesn't match with how they are teaching now.
You can then conduct a Bible study with them, using their own sources against them. That is something, is it not?
God Bless,
Denise |
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