| Author | Message | ||
| Richardjr |
I would like to thank Richard and Colleen for their Christian service in providing this forum. It must take alot of their time in which they could spend in other pursuits. I don't ever want to take it for granted. They have showed us grace and we are better off because of them. Keep up the good work Richard and Collen. | ||
| Rayna |
Well first of all, your sinful nature is showing through your comments to me. But I forgive you, you dont know what you are saying. Second of all, your belief is RCC not the Reformation teaching of Righteousness by faith. I could never accept yours. How many sinless works did you do today? or shall I say, did Jesus do through you today? Sorry, that is way beyond me. your comments are definitely not sinless. Well, lets just accept that we are opposites in belief as I believe I am always a sinner in this life. Throught the imputed righteousness of Jesus I am declared perfect and sinless in Gods sight. I am moving on to another topic as I believe we have reached a standoff. I could never believe your teaching of righteousness by faith. Here I stand I can do no other!!! With respect for our differences of opinions. | ||
| Max |
As you wish, Rayna, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
DID PAUL ANSWER THE QUESTION, "HAVE I STOPPED SINNING?" WITH A "RESOUNDING NO"? NO! Paul answers the question in two ways: THE FIRST WAY: Paul's question: "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?" Romans 6:1 NIV. Paul's answer: "By no means!" Romans 6:2 NIV. A better and more literal -- but less socially acceptable -- translation from the Greek is, "Hell, No!" followed by about 144,000 exclamation points. THE SECOND WAY: "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it." Romans 7:15-20 NIV. So is Paul saying, "It is I who keep on sinning?" Or is he saying, "It is sin living in me that does it"? Max of the Cross | ||
| Colleentinker |
Hi, Rayna! Have you by any chance read the book "Classic Christianity" by Bob George? It's absolutely wonderful, and it's the best explanation for who we are in Christ that I've ever read. (The book is available at Christian book stores.) George's main point centers on the indwelling Holy Spirit giving us a new identity. Our sinful flesh is still sinful, and we still have to live with temptation and failure. But the Holy Spirit gives us a new identityósaintóeven when we're still sinful! This identity is the result of Jesus's sacrifice. His death healed the chasm of sin, and his resurrection guaranteed that we would have resurrection power in our lives! The bottom line, according to George, is that instead of identifying ourselves by our weaknesses (alcoholic, bulemic, homosexual, stingy, angry, impatient, etc.) we now can identify ourselves as "saints". Perceiving ourselves by this new identity makes it possible for us to focus on Jesus instead of on our continuing struggles. When we are saved and considered saints because of Jesus' righteousness, we can't call ourselves alcoholic, anorexic, pornographers, etc. anymore. Even though our flesh still propels us to sin in all the old familiar ways, in God's eyes we are saints. When we internalize that amazing reality, we can relax our grip on our sinful desires and let God begin to grip them for us. The reality of living with Jesus and with the indwelling Holy Spirit is that Jesus really does free us, sometimes over time, sometimes quickly, of our destructive habits. None of this means that our freedom from sinful behaviors is a necessary part of our salvation. But it is part of our heritage as sons of God and saints. Jesus is most definitely at the right hand of God. He is also most definitely indwelling us in the form of the Holy Spirit. Both are equally and simultaneously true. (Another paradox!) When Jesus said to come unto him and he would give us rest (Matt. 11:28), this freedom from self-destruction and compulsion is part of the rest he promised. None of this means we cease to be sinners or stop sinning. But it does mean that Jesus does give us the victory over enslaving behaviors. It isn't living in rest to be driven by internal complusions that we can't control. God redeems the years the locusts ate. He also wastes nothing and redeems everything we submit to him. There is freedcom in Christóand in God's eyes, we are already 100% perfect! We are wearing Christ's righteousness, and God sees that instead of our inherent and inevitable sins. The sin inherent in us is at odds with the Holy Spirit who makes us alive in Christ. But Christ has won the battle, and even though our inherent sin battles our heritage as saints, still Christ has already won the victory. We can rest in the surety that we are indeed saintsóeven though we're still in our sinful flesh! Praise God1 Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Rayna, I'm sorry that you want to move to another topic;-(( As to saying that our sinful natures are showing! That was really funny;-)) He, he, he! How absolutely true and don't we all do it! I have written some less then loving comments that show my sinful nature too, BUT......most of the time the Holy Spirit impresses me to "highlite" and "delete" certain things. That's called "fruits of the Spirit!" Honestly though, I find it a bit offensive to call a brother in Christ a RCC in the context of how it was said. Personally, I believe that there are going to be lots of surprised looks in heaven when we look around at faces we never expected to see again! Included in those faces WILL be RCC along with SDA's I believe. Somehow, the SDA mindset seems to put the RCC at the lowest of the low places! The SDA mindset just keeps us wanting to believe that no matter what "we" believe and no matter how long it has been preached by Godly men and women for centuries, "we" have the "only" truth. Come on guys, Evangelicals have had it for years and years. Take a big gulp and listen to one once in a while. Do it with an open Bible and you will see a new and wonderful world open before you. A world that is not so contaminated with "remnantism!" Upward and onward.......Maryann | ||
| Terry |
Rayna, Scripture tells us that, "...but now (2000 years ago) once at the consumation (end) of the ages He has been manifested to PUT AWAY [do away with] sin by the sacrifice of Himself." Hebrews 9:26 Verse 28: "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation WITHOUT REFERENCE to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." This, I believe is what Max is trying to say here. We live as Christians, in God's eyes, without reference to sin. Sin, disclosed by the giving of the Sinaitic Law/Ten commandments, has been eliminated by Christ. We now bear the effects of Earth-bound sin in our lives, in a physical manner, but spiritually we are sinnless. Hope this helps Terry | ||
| Patti |
The differences between what Rayna is saying and what Max is saying are not miniscule. In fact, that very difference split the entire Christian world 500 years ago. In this life, we are never without sin. We are not even "spiritually sinless," because we don't have the spirituality even to know how to pray. Paul tells us that the Holy Spirit has to intervene and pray for us because we don't know how. We are righteous and holy ONLY BY FAITH. The difference is the focus. Rayna says only Christ is righteous; Max says we are spiritually holy. Rayna is very strong on the Gospel of the Reformation. A Gospel that stands at odds with the RCC gospel, one that is today accepted by most of Protestantism, including SDAs, which believes that righteousness by faith actually MAKES the sinful believer holy and acceptable to God. The reformers (and Paul) are very clear that the righteousness that saves us is an extrinsic righteousness, a righteousness from God, the righteousness of the One, by which the many are saved. This righteousness is credited to all those who believe in sufficiency of the work of God. This is the great breakthrough of Martin Luther, that justification (salvation) comes of faith only, faith in the perfect obedience of Jesus Christ. To state is more simply: Reformational Gospel--We are saved by an alien righteousness; we are saved by the mercy of God alone in DECLARING us righteous for the sake of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ alone. RCC gospel--We are justified by the work of Jesus Christ, and with the help of the Holy Spirit our spirits are brought into harmony with God. We are not MERELY declared righteous; justification is only the beginning of a process that actually MAKES us righteous. We are never sinless in this life, either physically or spiritually. We are always dependent upon the mercy of God for the sake of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ. When we believe in Him, we are at once justified (set right with God), sanctified (set apart for a holy purpose), and glorified (We KNOW that He will save us) BY FAITH alone. That is, we have no tangible evidence, we simply trust the Word of God. It may seem like a matter of semantics only, but it was the crux of the entire Reformation. But don't take my word for it. Study it for yourself. Rayna has recommended Luther's Commentary on Galatians. It is available online in very readable English for anyone who may be interested. Study into the Reformational Gospel was the impetus for my leaving SDAism. Brinsmead's book, Judged by the Gospel, although still fairly sympathetic to SDAism and Ellen White, very clearly outlines that although SDAs claim to be heirs to the Reformation, they have a very Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation. He also clearly outlines the Reformational beliefs: sola Christe -- salvation through Christ alone sola gratia -- salvation only by mercy of God alone sola fide -- salvation through faith alone sola scriptura - The Bible is the final and ultimate authority in spiritual matters. I am not saying that one must study Reformational theology in order to find the Gospel; but the Gospel was what the Reformation was all about. And I believe that all Christians should be concerned about not falling into the "other gospel" Paul speaks of in Galatians. Jesus Christ is our righteousness. And our Righteousness is safe in heaven where rust cannot decay and moth cannot destroy, at the right hand of God the Father. Truly, all Jesus asks is for us to depend upon His merits for our salvation. Why is it so hard for us to believe? | ||
| Max |
Dear Patti, You are just simply mistaken about what I am saying. I do not say, "We are spiritually holy." I don't know why God is causing you to judge wrongly and make such errors about what I am saying and not saying. But I pray that he will work on your heart to listen more effectively to what I am saying before rushing to judgment. Praying for you, Patti, Max of the Cross | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, I'm really puzzled??!;-(( Putting Max, Colleen, myself and others in a bag, zipping it up and throwing it into the RCC is really unfair. You have NO grounds to do that!! In looking at your above post, you are saying that we are saying something WE ARE NOT SAYING. I just must ask you something. And I ask this in a kind spirit or as in the immortal words of Allenette, "ment friendly." Are you so angry at the White Lying blinders you wore since birth to when they were ripped off that you have replaced them with dark blinders? I was in a marriage for years that frustrated me to near insanity by my words being turned to something I NEVER said! We are both in the SAME Bible!!!! Let's try to stay on the same page at the same time. Or how about we sing a duet of How Great Thou Art, you sing stanza 1 and I will sing stanza 2 at the same time. Both stanza's are correct!!! But we are NOT very unified when we try to convince each other that the other is wrong when all that needs to be done is us be on the same stanza. Wouldn't it be absurd for me to accuse you of singing RAP? In the same way, it is absurd for Max, Colleen, myself and other's to be accused of Roman Catholic Doctrine in the context that we have been accused. The gospel is beautiful! The changes in our lives is the wonderful work of the Holy Spirit! Can't we rejoice together! Upward and onward........Maryann | ||
| Patti |
Maryann, I never mentioned your name nor referred to you in the least. | ||
| Patti |
Then just WHAT are you saying, Max? You always jump and "correct" Rayna and me whenever we say anything about salvation by believing in Jesus Christ ALONE. This is what I get on SDA (and RCC) boards. If you do not believe that we have full salvation in the doing and dying of Jesus Christ ALONE, then just what is it that you think must be added to Christ's work in order to save us to the uttermost? | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, No you never did mention me by name. Picture an old wooden bridge that is rotting away underneath and will collapse with even one person walking on it. Now picture me with Max, Colleen, Bruce and a few more taking a hike and this bridge is in the path. You holler, "hey Max, the bridge is rotten, don't go on it!" I would certainly assume that you were mentioning Max's name but hollering a warning to all of us. Same difference! Ment friendly and really looking forward when you can join us on our hike;-)) Maryann;-)) | ||
| Max |
Hi Patti, I have never in my life jumped in and "corrected" anybody anywhere who said "anything about salvation by believing in Jesus Christ ALONE." For I believe salvation is all about believing in Jesus Christ alone. And thanks for giving me the platform to say it yet again. I never tire of it. Blessings, Max of the Cross | ||
| Billtwisse |
Protestantism vs. Nonconformity Those who credit Protestantism alone as the origin and steward of gospel truth need to ask the question: has Protestantism added 'foolish philosophy' (Colossians) and law-requirements (Galatians) to the gospel? The answer is an emphatic 'yes'. The glorious destiny of the people of God will never be achieved through Protestantism. It will only be achieved through Nonconformity. God has cursed every denomination started in Reformation times with a strong delusion--because they loved fables and refused to accept the implications of the gospel they professed. All of the historic 'mainline' Protestant denominations are spiritually bankrupt today. The 'daughters' of the mainliners (evangelical denominations) are hanging in the balance at the current time. Their candlestick is about to be removed, unless they repent of their long-established sins. In reality, they have only followed in the footsteps of their mainline predecessors. Oh God--what kind of perversity have our hearts departed into? We have used the apostolic gospel to justify every conceivable heresy! --Twisse | ||
| Terry |
Go Bill! Terry | ||
| Lorinc |
Hi, Bill, You obviously have very strong convictions on this subject! I'd be interested in hearing more about what sinful "heresies" the evangelical denominations are teaching (Forgive me, I haven't gone back and re-read this entire thread; if this has been covered, a brief synopsis will do :-). I'm interested and somewhat skeptical for one reason: One of the things that the Lord has really put on *my* heart during my journey out of Adventism is the wrongfulness of drawing a line around my/our set of doctrines and convictions and saying, "inside are the true Christians, outside are the heretics / cults / daughters of Babylon, etc." or "Unless you define the Trinity exactly as I do, you cannot be saved." (Nobody here is saying that; that's just an illustration.) Two texts that have stuck in my mind are Christ's comment about "Other sheep have I, which are not of this fold," and Paul's observation that "Now we see as through a glass darkly, but then we shall see face to face." Not everything that differs from my personal understanding is heresy... as I'm sure you understand and appreciate. So -- can you enlighten me? In a friendly and inquisitive spirit, :-) Lorin | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Lorin, I am going to interrupt, not to usurp Bill's place in answering--I am sure his answer will be very good; I am looking forward to hearing it myself. Now, having made that disclaimer, let me say what I am trying to say. There are things in Christianity that are not negotiable. I think you will agree. For me, they are, in no particular order: 1. Salvation by the infinite mercy of God alone for the sake of the doing and dying of Christ alone 2. The absolute sinlessness and the divinity of Jesus Christ 3. The sovereignty of God--His will will be done. 4. The depravity of man--our utter inability to contribute anything positive to our salvation. 5. The Bible as the final authority for all spiritual matters. There are other things, IMO, are "variables," in that they are not salvific issues: 1. What happens to the soul after death 2. HOW the consummation will actually take place 3. What we should eat, drink, how we worship, etc. 4. The manifestation of our character regeneration And many more. The problem is that many denominations "major in minors." In other words, they make the "variables" tests of salvation, which is a corruption of the Gospel in that it adds the work of sinful humans to the perfect work of Christ as the basis of our acceptance with God. Whereas I agree with Bill that most of Protestantism (as denominations) has followed blindly after Rome, I do not believe (and I am not saying that Bill is saying this) that most of Protestantism is lost, and we alone are God's chosen. I am speaking denominationally and not individually. God's people are in all denominations. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Lorin, You made an excellent point in your post! You said: "One of the things that the Lord has really put on *my* heart during my journey out of Adventism is the wrongfulness of drawing a line around my/our set of doctrines and convictions and saying, "inside are the true Christians, outside are the heretics / cults / daughters of Babylon,....." That has been heavy on me too! In my mind, the majority of the problems like that are like in the story/parable about looking out of opposite sides of the same house and seeing something totally different. Unfortunately, an inbred mindset of remnantism runs though ALL of us. It was the non-critical, open minded, loving, gospel believing evangelical Christians that had a huge impact on my life. Had they fought with me about their window view and insistantly insisted on keeping their feet planted at their vantage point of the issues, I would still be looking out at the storm charging down towards me and been swallowed up by it. Rather, they took me by the hand, looked out my window, giggled at the would be mis-understanding and took me by the hand and showed me the beautiful setting sun from their view from the opposite side of the house. THAT IS CHRISTIANITY!!!!! God changes lives in the spiritual realms as well as the physical realms!!! Maryann | ||
| Pat |
Mr. Twisse, I am new here, so don't have the history with the group to know all about each of you. What is your expertise and experience with the mainline churches which qualifies you to say "God's curse is upon them?" This is a terrible judgment upon very many godly people - many who know well that they are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone. At least that has been my experience working in and belonging to quite a number of them since leaving Adventism some 20+ years ago. This smacks of the SDA "daughters of the great whore" attitude towards thousands and thousands of God's people! Pat |
