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Darrell
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2000 - 7:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Before, when I have read Hebrews 4 it seemed to me that there was an abrupt change of subject going from verse 11 to 12. I recognized that the word "for" at the start of verse 12 connected it to the previous verses, but I still could not see the connection. Maybe the meaning is obvious to others, but just in case someone else has also struggled with these verses, I will share what I have found. First, here are the verses in question, with a bit of context:

9 "So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."
(Hebrews 4:9-16)

Recognize that the "Word of God" being talked about in verse 12 is Jesus, and the verses are saying that nothing we do or even imagine is hidden from Him. In the context of the preceding discussion about entering God's rest, I take verses 12 and 13 to be a warning to anyone who would presume to trust in their own works rather than entering God's rest of salvation through the merits of Jesus Christ. Basicly, the writer is saying that if you want to trust in your own works, you might as well give up, because God demands absolute perfection, including your deepest motives and thoughts, and you can't hide anything from Him.

Then, just in case anyone might have become discouraged by this solemn warning, the writer in verses 14-16 reminds us that our Savior knows our weaknesses, and has made every provision for our salvation through our "Great High Priest", so we can come to God with confidence!

Praise to our awesome Savior!
Steve
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2000 - 8:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Darrell,

Hebrews 4 has so much new meaning for me since I've read it in light of Jesus' gift of salvation for us.

In a recent Bible study with a small group and an SDA pastor I pointed briefly presented Hebrews 3:7 - 4:13. I can't apply the word "angry" to this man, because he's so kind, however there did seem to be some uncomfort when I clearly pointed out that anyone who is saved is keeping the sabbath. That's the meaning of the "So there remains . . ." of Ch. 4 vs. 9.

I now believe that when I first came to Christ 25 years ago, I was perfectly keeping the sabbath by having accepted Him as Lord and Savior.
Cindy
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2000 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darrell, yes, I had thought the same way--like the verses between Hebrews 4:11 and 12 were disconnected somewhat... Your comments were helpful!

I also know the Adventists say that the meaning of verse 9--"There remains then a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;" means that the literal Seventh Day holiness REMAINS for us to "keep" today.

But as you mentioned above, the word "for" seems to connect verse 10 with verse 9 and clearly shows (at least to me!) the Rest of Believing in Jesus' Finished Work For Us. "for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his."

This chapter also points back to the beginning act of Creation when God instituted an never-ending Sabbath Rest. The symbol (or shadow) of this broken eternal rest and total communion with God was put in place at Sinai to point to Jesus, our True Sabbath Rest.

Now again, we can have the unbroken, abiding rest in His Finished Work; the Fulfillment of all 'shadows', and the Re-Creation completed by Christ's work for us! And "NOW WE WHO HAVE BELIEVED ENTER THAT REST... (Hebrews 4:3)

Grace always,
Cindy
Ritchie
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2000 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Cindy!

You said, "I also know the Adventists say that the meaning of verse 9--"There remains then a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;" means that the literal Seventh Day holiness REMAINS for us to "keep" today."

I just got off the phone with another friend who commented on Blanco's Clear Word paraphrase. As you are probably aware, Blanco's work has a definite SDA slant. Your comment above illustrates a malady that permeates many ranks in the denomination, including the mind of Dr. Blanco. (For examples of how his work has corrupted the Bible, go to <http://www.ratzlaf.com/currupt.htm>).

My contention is that unless an Adventist understands grace, Hebrews 4 would make no sense. It simply becomes another 'proof text'.
Steve
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2000 - 11:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Ritchie,

Very insightful contention. It's interesting that those verses that are used as proof texts, when understood in the light of grace take on a very different meaning.

As I've heard preachers say before, A text, without a context, becomes a pretext for a prooftext.

Without the context of Grace, that's all scripture becomes, is a bunch of prooftexts.

Steve
Steve
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2000 - 11:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW,

Blanco's "paraphrase" is not a paraphrase at all. It is an SDA commentary in the guise of a paraphrase.

J. B. Phillips and now Eugene H. Peterson have written paraphrases in the true sense of the word. Blanco's work attempts to make a mockery of paraphrases.

Steve
Cindy
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2000 - 6:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ritchie, Amen to your quote:
"My contention is that unless an Adventist understands grace, Hebrews 4 would make no sense. It simply becomes another 'proof text'."

Grace always,
Cindy
Cindy
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2000 - 6:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve, Amen also to your quote!
"Without the context of Grace, that's all scripture becomes, is a bunch of prooftexts."

You guys are just so brilliant! :-)))

Always grace,
Cindy
Cindy
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2000 - 6:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW, I agree with both of your analysis' of Blanco's 'Clear Word.' I think the denomination used to bill it as "The Clear Word Bible", but now have dropped the 'Bible' part after much flak from some scholars in the church. But in practice, many still take Blanco's words as a real translation...I know this has been the case in my own S.S. Class...

Grace as usual,
Cindy
Chyna
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2000 - 8:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's telling to me about the Clear Word Bible, or even just "Clear Word" is the outrage i felt when I realized that they were changing the words of the Bible to suit their own motivation and purposes. God says neither to add nor subtract from the Bible, and while they say it is glib paraphrasing, it's actually a blatant attempt to snow people into thinking it is God's word.

The Clear Word Bible (the affiliation of it with SDA) was one of the warning signs when i started reading up on Adventism

in Christ,
Chyna
Steve
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2000 - 5:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I had always "prided" myself that I was not part of a group that had it's own "translation" of the Bible. I've often met with Jehovah's Witness and Mormons (I invite them in to talk every time they come over). The JW's New World "Translation" of the Holy Scriptures has been denounced by Bible scholars the world over. Joseph Smith's "translation" of the Bible, known as the IV (Inspired Version) is not even published by the Utah Church, (although it is available from the Reorganized LDS church.) I've read both, and when dealing with those that believe in those "translations" one cannot break through that barrier without the Holy Spirit.

Although not the final stroke for me, when the Clear Word Bible came out (yes, "Bible" has been dropped, but the work remains) it was a serious departure from that which is accepted by all Christian communities everywhere.

Beware of any group that has it's own version of scripture. With those groups, you're dealing with a completely different belief in the doctrine of inspiration and revelation. And it's awfully hard to break through the barrier when one person is quoting from a "Bible" while you're quoting from a very different Bible.

Steve
Loneviking
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2000 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's even tougher when those folks have a prophet that has given their particular interpretation of the Bible the imprimataur of the Divine,and thus the promise of damnation for rejecting the Word of God.
Breezy
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2000 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve,
If you go to that link that I gave you in my post on Out of Africa, I think you will see that even Ellen would not have sanctioned what the SDA church has done in the Clear Word. I think she would have been horrified and spoken out adamantly about it. Which is probably a contributing factor to why it was done almost a hundred years after her death. I think the SDA church has taken dramatic license with her works since her death and promoted their agenda which is not God-centered.
Wendy
Patti
Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 5:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Breezy!

I think you are very generous to Ellen. This is my opinion only, but I think she that she did more injustice to the Scriptures than the Clear Word does. She constantly took snippets of texts and bases an entire "devotional" on them. For example, in SC, she quote the first part of John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son," and totally ignores the last part: "That whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Or she gathers parts of obscure texts from several places and pieces them together to "prove" her theology.

One of the most disturbing elements of her "visions," is that she never had a vision introducing any new "truth" from God. The visions always confirmed (vindicated?) what her husband or other leaders were trying to purport. That in itself is suspect as far as I am concerned. Just who was the "prophet"? Those who put forth the ideas initially or the one who had "visions" confirming them?

She accuses the "fallen" Protestant churches" as being "Babylon," or "confusion." I find much more confusion in the writings of Ellen. She is all over the court on the doctrine of salvation. You can find passages that state that we are saved by the imputed righteousness of Jesus, and those that say we are saved by our own righteousness. You can find statements that say that no one who has not attained perfection of character will make it to heaven, and you will find statements that the blood of Christ alone saves. You will find statements that Jesus Christ was the perfectly sinless Son of God, and you will find statements that He had a fallen nature just as we do. How can we expect SDAs to be anything but confused with such a leader?

Please do not be offended by my words. They are not directed at you personally. Just at a system that creates and promotes great confusion and insecurity in its followers.

Grace and peace always,
Patti
Breezy
Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti,
I understand what you are saying and agree with you. I sometimes forget that not everyone has the ability to discern the differences in her writings and may perhaps become confused. I am beginning to realize how the "masses" in the church have problems and how tormented many in the church are. I pray that they also will find out the truth about Ellen and realize that they have to treat her just like anyone else, a person that occasionally had good insight about things and occasionally fell flat on her face. No more and no less than any regular person.

I sense alot of anger and resentment behind your words and I just keep perspective and realize that the emotions are not directed at me, but rather the adventist "machine".

God Bless you!
Wendy
Patti
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2000 - 11:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wendy,
There is truly no anger and resentment behind my words. I am not angry at anyone, even the "SDA machine." I have been free of the SDA web for over 20 years. I am truly not bitter, just extremely grateful to be extricated from that web of deceit. Just because someone points out facts about others, such as the plagiarism, misuse of Scripture, and blatant contradiction of Scripture, does not mean it is done from resentment or hatred. I have no more emotion for Ellen White and the SDA church than I do for Joseph Smith and the Mormons. Both organizations are perpetuating a myth and a delusion. Am I angry and hostile because I say this? No. Just a bit saddened that people still fall for the lies.

If you want to see angry and hostile, then you need to read the posts I receive on a daily basis from current SDAs. All written in "Christian love," of course. (I still cannot understand how someone can call someone else "satanic" in "Christian love." :0 )

Anyway, God bless you also!
Grace and peace always,
Patti
Breezy
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2000 - 7:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am sorry to be so presumptuous.

Maybe I mislabeled it. It is just an intensity that I feel. But I've been wrong before. I am sorry that people send you such horrid posts. I have never understood how people can talk in those ways and still call themselves christian. You would think that they would realize that Christ Himself would never speak that way. I will be praying for those other people to find a true relationship with Jesus.

Take care of yourself,
Wendy
Darrell
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2000 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are some more verses that used to be confusing to me (John 16:7-12):

7 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12 I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

I used to not see the connection between righteousness and Christ going to the Father, but Hebrews sheds some light on this because it talks about Christ being our High Priest before the Father, which means He represents us, and the Father sees the righteousness of Christ in place of our sin. I like what Paul says in 2 Cor 5:21:

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

So now these verses mean to me that I can either stand righteous before the Father in Christ, or I can stand condemned with the "ruler of this world". And the deciding factor is whether I believe in Jesus.

As Bruce likes to say: "Do you believe?"
Colleentinker
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2000 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darrell, Great post! I really like your insight and how you see Hebrews and 2 Cor. shedding light on that passage in John. I've had confusion over that passage as well, and your explanation is really helpful.

Thanks!
Colleen
Patti
Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I. An In-depth Study of Hebrews 4

This is a rather lengthy discussion of Hebrews 4 and related passages. I have divided it into parts so as not to unduly tax anyone's brain or strain the eyes.

-----------------------------

Hebrews 4:9 So there is a special rest (sabbatismos) still waiting for the people of God.

The only appearance of this particular word (sabbatismos) in the entire Bible is in Hebrews 4:9, and it is not given in verb form.

From The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon:

"Original Word -- sabbatismovþ
Transliterated Word -- sabbatismos
Word Origin -- from a derivative of (4521)
TDNT Entry -- 7:34,989
Phonetic Spelling: sab-bat-is-mos'
Part of speech: Noun Masculine

"Definition
1. a keeping sabbath
2. the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians"

Many SDA apologists try to tell us that this word is translated "Sabbath-keeping." Notice the word sabbitismos is a noun, not a verb. The literal translation is a "keeping sabbath," not "sabbath-keeping," but a perennial rest from our labors. It is not something we do (i.e. it is not a verb), although I can see why lawmongers would interpret it as such; it is something (i.e. noun) that we are given in Jesus Christ: "the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians."

Do you know what the entire theme of the Book of Hebrews is? It is the superiority of our Lord Jesus Christ on this earth to anything that preceded Him.

Hebrews 1:1-3 -- Christ is superior to the prophets.

Hebrews 1:4 -- Christ is superior to the angels

Hebrews 3 -- Christ is superior to Moses

Hebrews 4 -- Christ is superior to Joshua

Hebrews 5 -- Christ is superior to the Aaronic priests

Hebrews 6 -- In Christ lies our hope

Hebrews 7 -- The work of Christ is superior to the work of the Aaronic high priest

Hebrews 8 -- The heavenly sanctuary (Christ) is superior to the earthly

Hebrews 9 -- The Messianic covenant is superior to the first covenant

Hebrews 10 -- Forgiveness in Christ is superior to forgiveness by sacrifice

Hebrews 11 -- Faith in Christ is superior to works

Hebrews 12 -- Summary: Christ is the fulfillment of all things and Author and perfect Finisher of our faith


In the light of this, let's take another look at that text:

Hebrews 4:9 So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God.

This noun sabbitismos which is found nowhere in the Bible except in this one verse of Hebrews 4, follows in the same line as the rest of the book of Hebrews. It is a superlative, showing that this is a different kind of rest, both from the weekly sabbath and from the rest that God gave the children of Israel under the leadership of Joshua.

More evidence that this sabbatismos does not refer to the weekly sabbath is found in preceding verses:

Hebrews 4:4 For somewhere (that is, somewhere else) he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work."
5 And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."
6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.
7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David


God set aside a different day--this is in contrast to verse 4 that mentions the weekly sabbath--calling it Today. Today is the day that God wants us to enter His rest.

9. There remains, therefore, a rest. Since God has set aside a rest for his people, and, in the previous verses it is clear that it is neither the Sabbath nor the Canaan rest, a rest remains for the people of God. The sabbath and the Canaan rest were only types (shadows, if you will) of the sabbatismos that we find in Jesus Christ.

10. For he that is entered into his rest. When God rested on the Sabbath, the type of the true rest, his works ceased. So when our rest comes, our efforts to gain salvation by the work of our own hands will cease.

11. Let us labor therefore. Since this glorious rest, our sabbatismos in Christ, remains for faithful believers, we should make every effort to achieve it, and especially take heed that we do not fail through disbelief as our spiritual ancestors did.

So it becomes very clear that the theme of Hebrews holds true for chapters 3 and 4. Just as Christ is found superior to all other things in the rest of the book, so in this passage, the rest that Christ offers to those who trust in His saving act is SUPERIOR to the weekly sabbath and to the rest that God gave the children of Israel under Joshua, and we must make every effort to "enter into His rest."

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