| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hello Maryann, I'm so glad you've been posting and posting and posting. You need to realize that in so doing you are using the talent God has given you -- communicative skills and the ability to write creatively. Don't sell this short. It is just as good a talent as the ability to sing to God's glory or to "Preach like Paul" or any other. For if you sell God's gift short you sell God short. God is always sovereign -- don't question his opinion: He loves you unconditionally. He made you because he loves you. He created you in order to save you. And he redeemed you because he loves you unconditionally. Now to your quote: "By mutual agreement, I'm getting nailed on the nature of Christ by the next to best friend I have besides all you guys. I want to be able to show him that Jesus didn't have a sin nature!" Whoa! Maryann, you're dealing with a dysfunctional person. And you will probably NEVER EVER "be able to show him that Jesus didn't have a sin nature." This is what dysfunctionality is all about: One person (your friend) assuming that the other person (you) have to "prove" or "show" him something. But he can ALWAYS find reasons why you can't convince him. And so you are forever in a one-down position vis-a-vis him. Why? Because this issue is NEVER "what the truth is." The issue is ALWAYS "who is in dysfunctionally emotional control" of the other person. I'm reminded of the place in Rogers and Hammerstein's wonderful musical Carousel where the husband (can't remember his name) is complaining about his wife. He says something like this: "We get into these terrible arguments. I force her to prove that she's right. And when she does I have to hit her." Do you understand how this poor wife and her even poorer husband couldn't see how "what the truth is" wasn't the issue? Emotionally dysfunctional control was the only issue. When the wife proved herself to be factually correct, she got face-fisted by her horribly insecure husband. The closer she got to the facts, the more she endangered herself. In fact, she was blinder than he was, because he could at least admit that "when she was right, I had to hit her." He "had" to hit her, because her being factually correct about anything at all, threatened his dysfunctional control over her. My advice: Never try to prove to a dysfunctional controlling manipulator that he is factually incorrect. To such people the facts have meaning only as manipulative control tools. Truth is utterly beyond them. And if you are "unequally yoked together" with such a person, you're in trouble. Bottom line: You can't "prove," but you can "witness." Here's how (Romans 12:17-21 NIV): "Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' says the Lord. On the contrary: "'If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.' "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." Blessings always, Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Jude, I just had a monsterious let down :-( I had this heart felt thing composed from deeeep in my heart and ready to post and while in deep thought simply erased it. I'm sick. Maybe the next one is going to be better? God had a plan maybe? I might need to re-do it to re-enforce it in "my" mind. Now to my friend. Your comments, observations and advice are very good. BUT, in this case, they do not apply. This is a most wonderful person. Is not pushy, manipulative, controlling in anyway. I've known him since I was 13 and consider him my best "un-equally yoked" friend. I would trust him in any and all circumstances with my life, my kids life and your life. I deeply care about him and he about me. We decided to come up with a subject that we could study together. After a 2 1/2 hour conversation on the phone last week, I said, let's do the nature of Jesus as that seemed to be the root problem of his theology in my opinion. We mutually agreed that would be the best place to start. He has 30+ years of devoted study under EGW/SDA and can smoke me on any subject. I enjoy any discussion with him as he NEVER is sarcastic or belittling. I hope to one day be able to introduce him to y'all. Thank you for your concern and encouragement. Writing/posting has been such a salve for my soul. Sometimes I feel bad when I grouch or snap at someone. Believe me when I say the post will be done on the word program :-( Grrrrrrr. Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Good to hear from you again, Maryann, I know God is leading you because of the gentle way you have corrected me. As far as the nature of Christ is concerned, you don't need to be intimidated by what EGW-SDAs think any more. And you STILL don't have to convince or "smoke" your friend. All you have to do is to stake out your position and defend it biblically, graciously, and lovingly. You know how to do that, as you have proven by your last post directed to me. And so, "Fat sails, voyager!" Jude | ||
| Lori |
Jude, It's so nice to have YOU back 'posting'; I have missed your comments and insights!!!! Maryann, There is alot that is not 'heard' through computers......you keep saying that you have snapped or grouched at someone, but I've never 'read' that in the wording of your posts. What I do 'read' is a very heartfelt frustration!!! This morning while I was doing my Bible Study, it encompassed Prov. 24, a scripture across the page jumped out me and it seems so pertinent to your struggle. Prov. 23:9 "Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words." Who is a fool? Anyone who decides that his ideas are more truth than Gods!!!! I do apologize if anything I have written has come across as 'walking all over you', I didn't intend that way. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Thanks so much, Lori! Somehow I have a picture of you in my mind as this little mother of young children with blond hair and blue eyes sincerely and insightfully keyboarding away between diapers -- and all because you love Jesus. Isn't freedom and safety in Christ great? I think you're right about Maryann. She doesn't come across to me as grouchy either. With flowers, Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Jude, I spent 30 minutes looking for a post that I'm quite sure you posted since youíve been back. It vanished. The content basically was that the SDAs are our mission field and we need to get the message out, NOW! Well, here goes try two. I'm so blessed by being able to listen to tapes and radio so much. I heard a radio show today that just nailed me. I happened to have the tape in my ìlarge tape libraryî and re-played it. I will generalize it. We all have a past. We donít have to run from it. God gave it to us. He created it. He foreknew it. We need to thank and praise God for it. Our past is ìour pastî for a reason. Our past is why we are here today. Our past is part of Godís ìBig Planî for us. All our joys and pains, blessings and struggles, good times and bad times are given to ìusî specially from Godís hand. He chose ìusî for a purpose and our past has put us right where we are at this very moment. We shouldnít regret our past. We shouldnít be ashamed of it (discreet maybe). We are unique. Our past can either break us or can be channeled through God to be the most powerful testimony to our faith to ourselves and to those around us. We can say, ìyou donít know what Iíve been throughî. We can drag our past with us like a ball and chain rolling all over the place, tripping us and knocking others over in our paths. We bring our past with us as our ìshieldî from the future God has planned for us and an excuse for our present behavior. It can be a crutch or a testimony of Godís power to change lives. (not necessarily to change our circumstances) The memories of our past can ìbecomeî the blessings of our future and those around us. We canít let the trials and tribulations of our past like some have shared in previous post paralyze us. People like George that were physically abused and/or others that have been emotionally traumatized by lies and legalism, just have to find a way to thank God for their past and show others the ìjoyî that is theirís now. Letís make a commitment to God to channel ìour pastî to His glory and THEN we can be the witness to the SDAs we so deeeeply care about. That ìISî why we have been delivered from our past donít you think? Well, this one is shorter than the one I erased. Actually, it may get my thoughts out better than the lost one. Well, Iím in an awful hurry as I have 20 minutes to get across town to be re-B-B-Qd by the Chinese Doctor. Iíll whine about that when I get back :-( Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Maryann again, No, the post you're seeking hasn't vanished. It's in the "EGW and Politics" Discussion. Here's how it starts: "By Jude the Obscure on Wednesday, April 12, 2000 - 02:38 pm: Cas and all, Thanks for your testimony." To respond to your most recent post: Yes, I agree with your ideas about God's leading us in the past, though we didn't know it at the time. Your attitude seems to be becoming more and more oriented toward "the sovereignty of God" motif, which has MUCH support in Scripture, and which seems to be enjoying a great renaissance in the world today. I do think we need to be careful about using the term "God's plan" too cavalierly. The danger is anthropomorphizing God, or inappropriately conceiving of God in our own image and on our own terms. We would be foolish to reason, "Because we make plans, God makes plans." Oh? And how do we KNOW that? It's not so stated in Scripture, is it? God has many qualities, such as love. One of the qualities that he has, though, is one we don't think of nearly often enough: mystery. God is mystery. There are many many texts to support this. I'll mention some without references: He is clothed in thick darkness. His thoughts and ways are higher than ours, even as the heavens are higher than the earth. He creates evil and sends "an evil spirit from the Lord" as judgment on people. He "loves" Jacob and "hates" Esau while they were still unborn twins in their mother's womb. On and on. I'll stop here. All by way of saying, We don't know what the plans of God are or were -- unless they are revealed to us by Scripture and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is THE revelation of God, and we should reference all descripions and all attributions (creatorship, power, lawgiving, planmaking, etc.) to him. We need to recognize the sovereignty of JESUS CHRIST as the primary meaning of the sovereignty of God. We need to recognize that Jesus Christ is "holy from" us, whereas we are "holy to" him. These are difficult concepts, but reasons for our humility in the face of God. Having said all that, I think your thougts about God's purposes in your own life are right on, and that you have gleaned them from communion with the Holy Spirit. And all that is prelude to agreeing with you on your conclusion: "Letís make a commitment to God to channel ìour pastî to His glory and THEN we can be the witness to the SDAs we so deeeeply care about. That ìISî why we have been delivered from our past donít you think?" Yes I do. And I thank God for you, Maryann. Grace and peace, Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hey Jude again, Hmmmmmmmmmm, I can always count on having to use a big thick dictionary to learn a new word that you so easily toss out there :-) Yeh, we do need to be careful not to simplify God. He's simply not simple. I don't think you thought I was, just a caution to me. We do need to try to get past our "FEAR" of him, that is the un-healthy fear. The best way I know to do that is to try, through Bible study, the Holy Spirit and especially (for me) some Godly person that has the ability to, in some small way, personalize Him, (not reduce Him) to our human mind. (Remember Matthew 18?) I remembered one thing I didn't add to the 2nd draft. Our past also had a lot to do with shaping our personalities, temperaments and mind sets. That is not necessarily bad either. God can definately work with who and what we are as we are. Now, all I gotta do is let him :-) I did like your point about God not needing a friend when He created Adam. The God "needing" to create a "friend" theory would be an example of that "great big long word" you used in your last post, if I understood the dictionary deffinition :-( The Chinese ordeal was about the same as last time except she traded building a bon-fire on me for using some kind of a jack hammer on my head!? By the way, do you have an e-mail that works? Maryann | ||
| Colleentinker |
This discussion is wonderful! It has reminded me of one of the darkest times of my life. It was about 15 years ago, and I was going through a divorce. I was left alone with no job, no income from my estranged husband, and only one close friend within driving distance. I felt shreddedóI felt as if I were losing myself. If my parents hadn't come temporarily to my rescue, I would have lost my apartment and been homeless. I even (for a few weeks) used food stamps. I was totally humiliated. I agonized with God to help me find a job. But I couldn't find one. I gradually built up some clients for whom I did freelance writing, and I began to be able to pay my bills. But for months I was completely destitute. On top of the physical destitution, I was emotionally and spiritually devastated. The worst thing of all was realizing that I had committed what I considered to be the sin above all sinsódivorce. I had severed a sacred relationship, and I believed God would not forgive me for that. If I had been 100% innocent, I reasoned, I could justify his forgiveness. But I knew I was not innocent. I had been part of a relationship that had been unhealthy from its inception. I had chosen to marry into that situation, and I had reacted badly when things went terribly wrong. I remember the day I paced the floor of my apartment, pleading with God to forgive me, knowing that he wouldn't, and feeling deep inside that my usefulness was ended. God was punishing me for my unforgivable sin, and I knew I deserved banishment. I remember that I felt as if I were dying deep inside myself. I remember the abject agony I felt, and how hopeless I felt as I literally groaned to God for forgiveness. And then, all at once, I knew I was forgiven. God touched my deep inside and made me know that I was forgiven! I will never forget the peace and the joy I felt. God wasn't done with me, and I he loved me, and he actually forgave what even I could not forgive! That was one of the most important moments of my entire life. God had allowed me to reach a point where I could no longer pretend that my problems were not my own sins. I had to KNOWóand admitóthat I was a lost and completely irrational sinner. No excuse could justify my own fatal flaw. I was deeply and inherently guilty, and God's forgiveness couldn't make much of an impact on me until I knew, intellectually and spiritually, that I was undeserving of God's grace. At the point at which I believed my sins had destroyed me and my life, God filled my heart with light and love. I also realize now that God had me exactly in the place and situation he wanted me. If I had not been literally struggling to survive, I suspect I would not have felt so convicted of my hopelessness. My point is this, Maryann: for some reason God has you there without soul mates present. But he has you there for some reason. I believe he has spiritual friends and mentors planned for you right where you are. But even more, he wants you to know him. I'm convinced, however, that we can't know him, really, until we truly give to him all of our dreams and hopes and fears. We have to surrender our desire to control our lives and environments before we can be free and open to his love. We have to come to the place of admitting our deep loneliness and guilt. We have to relinquish and confess our selfish desires and plans. I Corinthians 7 talks about staying where you were when you were called. We have to deepen in God before we make huge moves in our environments. We have to literally praise God for where he's brought us and to where he's taking us. I'm praying that God will bring you the fellowship you need, Maryann, and that he will help you to know him as the loving father and mentor that he is. I suspect that your scars from Adventism are deep, even if you can't specifially identify them. I'm praying that God will heal you where you've been hurt or shamed. He loves you, Maryann, as do we. And never forget he has a sovereign purpose for your being where you are at this time. With prayes and love, Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Colleen, Well, I hope you had a good nights sleep! You were at it till all hours spitting that one out. After re-reading your post and putting myself in your place as best as I could, I really realized something. Looking back over "my past", I have realized that the only thing that I have felt guilt about is that I have NEVER, I MEAN NEVER, experieced guilt. This really has puzzeled me for years. I hear all these "heart wrenching" stories about how guilt eats people up for years. I just can't work up a good guilt trip! And I've tried! Soooo, there are two reasons for this as I see it. )1 I am hard hearted :-( )2 I understand that the past is "past" and I am forgiven 2000 years ago :-) I am toally clueless as to which one it is. I watched "boy 2" in a previous story, go out of his mind (12 years ago) from guilt. He groveled daily to God about his past? It was so sad and pointless! Do I have a bad attitude? Do I have such a big dose of pride that I can't work up a good guilt trip. If you boil down what's in my mind to a concentrate, it's my puzzlement/guilt over not having it. If everyone else has it or did have it, it figures that I should too. So, if you think a guilt trip is something I need, show me where I can find one :-( I just re-read the above and seems I feel guilty about sounding sarcastic (is that ever an oxymoron!). Well, I'm not, I'm serious a heart attack. And on top of that I'm not pointing any fingers, just expressing myself. Not Guilty.........Maryann | ||
| Lori |
Jude, Just so your mental picture can be adjusted properly----I'm a brunette with hazel eyes and I don't have to do diapers, anymore!!! But as my youngest used to say--I do like to 'peck' on the 'puter' and it is because I have found out the secret that eluded me before---I'm learning to love God--I'm no longer only loving the evidence of His love, but I'm learning to love him. Which now makes other things-make so much more sense, we are to be a bride---how does a bride feel? She's in love!!! (Before, I only saw that to mean, that being a bride of Christ, meant you belong to him. But as a bride I didn't feel like I simply 'belonged' to my groom, I was much than that, I was IN LOVE, he was the only person I wanted to be with. And, I'm now experiencing that with God, it's wonderful!!! | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Colleen and Lori, I'm getting to be convinced that God keeps us in a "tissy" till we learn what He wants us to learn. I'm about tissied out! The longer we are in our "tissy state" before we learn that "God is Love, Supreme, All Knowing, All Everything" the better mentors we will be to others once we learn. I was always told that a school teacher that was a "C" student was way better that an "A" student, because they were more patient. I've gone back and re-read your post 1/2 a dozen times (Colleen) and am torn between liking and not liking 1 Cor.7. I've read that a few times. One can take it at face value, which is a very archaic view of "gals", (I'm gunna get nailed on that one), or look at the "principle" of that chapter. You, I believe understand what I'm talking about. As to scars from SDAism. That last post I did on guilt got me to thinking again. Yikes! (that's an archaic expression). I think I put my finger on "my scar". As I've mentioned before, I had a most wonderful childhood except for the "DRESS"! I didn't experiece some of the awful things that others have experienced. Soooo, what's "my scar?" A TWISTED VIEW OF GOD! How can I love a God that to my perception as a kid was not a kind God. Number 1 thing was that I didn't have was a family "male roll model" that was Godly. To this day, and I mean today, I don't really , deep down in my heart equate "manly" and "Godly". It's like they don't belong together. Number 2, God "stuff" wasn't kid "stuff". Number 3, the only Godly people I knew were "old women". Now, don't tell me that isn't twisted :-( Now, the "old women" that I was refering to were rounded to be in their 40s. So now with the above frame of mind, I guess by my age, I'm an "old woman" and Godliness should just automaticly come? Wrong! My mind set and picture of my self is 13 years old (can't you tell?) so there is NO WAY I can be Godly! Who want's to be Godly? when your earliest memories of Godly women were women who at the drop of a knee were in groveling tears? They claimed to love God with all their heart, mind, body and soul, (ah hah, a soul that dies? concept that?). Can you imagine the Fuller Brush Man coming to your door and with tears streaming down his face saying, "this brush will change your life." "It will remind you with every stroke what a wonderful brush it is as it has splinters in it that will stick you." "When you are done using it, it will constantly be in you mind because of the splinters you will have to dig out and the infections will remind you after the splinters are gone of this wonderful brush!" Just how many brushes would you buy? Well, I can double (no, 1,000,000 to the 100th power) guarantee you that I don't have a Fuller Brush In my house! In other words, God, Heavenly things, religion etc were things that made you all weepy and gooey. So, what made them weepy and gooey? LOVE of God or FEAR of God? I really loved my cats, dogs and horses and my love for them NEVER made all weepy and gooey. Suppose that's why I'm sooooooooo tight with my animals? Suppose that this is why I can totally love and accept my animals? Now, suppose that this is why I was so crushed when I left your house, I experienced a NON weepy gooey love from a human. You, Colleen, have had the single "most biggest" impact on me than any human in my life to date. (I still like you cat and dog) Hey, were you a "C" student? If I ask you (Lori) how you got to the place where you entered a love relationship with Jesus, you will answer, "reading His Love Letters", so I wont even ask. Now to another thing. I HATE POSTING ON THE WEEKEND! :-( Most times, it seems that all you Godly people are doing the Godly things you should be doing, like going to Church and fellowshipping, and when you get back to the Forum, my post are dropped to "last week" and get ignored. Sorry about whinning. I think I'll go visit my cats, I can use a purring in my ear! We are going to Church today. We went last week. The kids don't like the non-denominational church as the kids programs are "way funky punky". I don't really like going to the Baptist Church that the kids like because Baptist tend to think they are 2 or 3 up on the "other" Churches. They have a good program for the kids though, AWANA is great and they leave at 6:30 Sunday mornings to feed the homeless down town. Maryann | ||
| Praise999 |
Hi Maryann, I want to you know that your comments about not feeling guilt struck a resonating note. I've not found many people who've had this experience. However, for MANY years Iíd argue with my friends about my absence of guilt. Theyíd say that it was impossible. Iíd counter, ìBut you donít know what I feel and what I donít feel. From my present perspective I have some understanding about not feeling guilt. It was a defense that started functioning before I could even talk. I know this because some of the things that I said as a very young girl (as told to me by others) reveal an attempt to reassure myself that I wasnít guilty. From my earliest memories on, I wasnít feeling guilt. On the other hand, my behavior exhibited the tell-tale sign of guilt. What is it? The story of the fall makes it very clear. Adam & Eve attempted desperately to hide. As far back as I can remember, I had a persona that enjoyed being with people and was open and friendly. But I never disclosed the things that really mattered to me. A major reason why I think this happened: I was raised in a family that used guilt to try to control behavior. From as far back as I can remember, I resisted being controlled in one way or another. Another reason that I came to see few years ago: If I were to FEEL guilt, even a tiny, tiny bit, Iíd open myself to an ocean of repressed guilt. So while I COULD NOT FEEL IT, it was still functioning in my life. We must not forget that our minds are very powerful, especially when it comes to self-deception. Jeremiah points out that ìThe heart is deceitful above all things,î and Paul in I Corinthians warns, ìDo not deceive yourselves.î In thinking about my own situation, I believe that my not feeling guilt was a type of ìsplitting.î Itís related to the splitting that kids develop when they are abused. It is absolutely necessary for emotional and mental survival as a child. However, what can be necessary for survival as a child can be dysfunctional as an adult. When we enter into a love relationship with Jesus Christ as his bride (thank you Lori), these previously necessary defenses prove to interfere with accurate perceiving. Maryann, you made some excellent points in your discussion of how our past connects with the present. April 14 at 1:53 you wrote, ìHe chose ìusî for a purpose and our past has put us right where we are at this very moment. We shouldnít regret our past. We shouldnít be ashamed of it.î You are right: ìWe bring our past with us as our ìshieldî from the future God has planned for us.î The wonderful reality is that in him we can risk feeling redemptive guilt without being overwhelmed with destructive guilt. Through the Holy Spirit preparing us as Christís bride, our feelings are healed and redeemed, not just our behavior and our thinking. To all those posting on this discussion and reading this thread, I wish you freedom from the feelings of destructive guilt and freedom to feel redemptive guilt. Praise999 | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Praise999, Keep on talking. I'm listening. Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Again Praise, Thought I'd like to get to know you so I pulled up all you past post's. Some very interesting stuff showed up. You have been quiet for a while. Why? You got lot's to contribute! Could you carry your thought out a bit more on the destructive V redemptive guilt? Yeh, there were hush hush things as a kid. I'm a naturally open and friendly person and I don't mind getting personal. I despised hush hush so much that I didn't want to EVER be like that. I'm very open with my feelings and that has gotten me into trouble on an occasion or dozen. Now, try to tie this together with the lack of guilt for me. I'm really dense or something or maybe on a different wave length. Thank you for your comments....Maryann | ||
| Lori |
Maryann, I'm going to answer your question, that you didn't ask, only because you got the answer wrong------- The way that I learned how to love God is first, I learned that he wasn't something to fear. I had fear of the judgement of God!!!! You know, if you do something bad, you may get away with it on earth, but you will answer to God, kind of stuff. Uncovering the basic truth that God is not going to re-judge anyone, because all sin has already been judged on the cross was a start. Then when I was introduced to what the Bible says that will take place in the millenium, I saw the perfect righteousness and perfect justice of God. I didn't know that the millenium would begin with only believers on the earth and that God would provide a perfect enviroment, this is done to show that it is not just Satan and the evil angels messing around with us that causes us to be 'bad'. I've often wondered about that, haven't you? If Satan would just leave us alone wouldn't we be ok. God is going to demonstrate that to us. I like the story of Methibosheth (sp.?) , too. That one I suppose you could classify as a love letter!!!! I learned that one in studying the covenants and it brought home the idea, loud and clear, that we are saved because of who and what God is, not because of who and what we are. And the fact that we are not going to be 'throw out' because we mess up; he secures our salvation.......I didn't really find the ability to love God through 'love letters', that's too emotional of a thought for me (i.e...I don't cry at movies) but rather through learning the truth about the character of God. After all, when you think about that is what the whole angelic controversy was about, the character of God and that is what Satan is trying to malign with humanity today. So in short, the Character of God is what made me love Him. Incidentally, I have a little better mental attitude since I emailed you earlier, thanks for the ear!!! And, I understand your weekend frustration. We didn't go to church this week.......I really despise religion, I know that sounds terrible,.....we go to a Baptist church when we go, but I hate it because you never know when you are going to have to sit through the 'arm twisting to save a soul'. The non-denominational church can spend an hour in public prayer with individuals all over the congregation popping up here and there to pray.......that in combination with the tambourine during song service is more than my husband can endure!!! We have a much better experience at home. Maybe someday we will find our spot. Meanwhile what counts is' Who' you spend your time with during the week. Personally, I've always found it nearly impossible to find God at church, too many religious people there!!! | ||
| Patti |
Sometimes I am a bit slow at understanding things. I was hitting my forehead with the palm of my hand the other evening for not realizing before what just dawned on me when I was posting to Denise concerning the Trinity. I have never really given that much thought to the Trinity, just more or less accepted it. I always thought that the main trouble with the doctrine of the Trinity was that people deny the divinity of Christ. This is, of course a big problem, but there is another, more subtle problem that can come of not specifically defining and distinguishing between the different Persons of the Godhead. And I think it is a problem that is rampant in Christendom today, and that is confusing and confounding the work of Jesus with the work of the Holy Spirit. The work of Jesus Christ is a finished, completed, once-for-all, and unrepeatable work of that was accomplished perfectly for us. It was wrought in sinless flesh and is totally untainted by any spot or blemish. We had no part in it; all we can do is to trust in this magnificent saving work. It is this historic work of Jesus Christ alone that saves us. The work of the Holy Spirit is an ongoing, incomplete, and imperfect work (since He is working through sinful flesh). It is not unto salvation, it a gift of salvation. Not only this, but the primary manifestation of the work of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament was the testimony of Jesus. Nowhere in the New Testament do you find believers testifying too their own changed lives because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In the New Testament, the main role of the Holy Spirit was to inspire individuals to believe in Jesus Christ and then to facilitate the spread of the Gospel by telling others of the His great saving act for all who believe. You see, salvation is ALL God's work. Jesus did the work, the Holy Spirit focuses and refocuses us on the work of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, NEVER brings the focus to the believer. (Or Himself) NEVER. He gives us the ability to understand that Christ is our salvation; then He gives us the motivation and the courage to tell others about Jesus. I guess what I am really saying here, friends, is that it was brought back to me again today, in yet clearer focus that IT IS ALL ABOUT JESUS. From first to last. | ||
| Max |
It is true that salvation (righteousness, holiness, perfection and sinlessness) is all about Jesus from first to last, no question. But the only places in Scripture where Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are distinguished and defined as different are certain specific texts in which Jesus says the Holy Spirit (Comforter) cannot come unless he, Jesus, goes away. It is these texts that show Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit to be an identity in the sense that a "person" cannot be in two places at the same time. And an "identity" means that (1) God Jesus Christ and (2) God the Holy Spirit are "one," an "identity." Other places in Scripture do not so distinguish and differentiate the Godhead (trinity). For example the beautiful text from Isaiah 9:6 that we sing in Handel's "Messiah": ^^For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.^^ Notice here that the child Jesus Christ to be born is called by the very name of the Holy Spirit, "Wonderful Counselor," as well as the name "Everlasting Father." Thus Scripture calls Jesus Christ by name both Holy Spirit and God the Father. Furthermore, all three Persons of the Godhead are here summed up in unmistakable trinitarian language as "The Mighty God." In other words, according to Isaiah, The Mighty God is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit -- all one God. Thus, Deuteronomy 6:4 can say, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." Furthermore, Colossians 2:8-10:8-10 says, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power." In other words, God the Holy Spirit dwelt in God the Son Jesus Christ BEFORE he ascended into heaven to sit down at the right hand of the Father. Here is another one of those beautiful paradoxes of which Scripture is full: God the Holy Spirit was here on earth in Jesus and yet could not come unless Jesus "went away." And so the action of the Holy Spirit in our lives is indeed the action of Jesus Christ, God the Son. For he also said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." Blessings to all, Max of the Cross | ||
| Patti |
Max, I am trying to understand your role on this forum. Is it to put your stamp of approval (or otherwise) on every single post or merely to refute everything that I say? I find it a bit frustrating to say the least. Now to answer your rebuttal: The work of God in us is through the Holy Spirit. Christ's work is finished. To claim that Christ literally works in us is to leave His work incomplete, unfinished, imperfect and open-ended--the verdict would still be out. The only way Christ can live in us is through the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit NEVER testifies to the believer, but to the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ on our behalf. | ||
| Max |
For me FAF theological discussions are not personal struggles. This proposition has been stated: ^^To claim that Christ literally works in us is to leave His work incomplete, unfinished, imperfect and open-ended--the verdict would still be out.^^ Can it be supported from Scripture alone? Blessings to one and all. |
