| Author | Message | ||
| Maryann |
Yeh, I gots an answer. You finally got some value!!!;-)) You finally wrote a GEEEEEE-RAAAAAAAAAATE post!;=)) And to you that think I just insulted George, I didn't!! That is a HIGH compliment from his sister. Besides, I guess he has a little more "token" value as he fixed the refridgerator problem in my travel trailer today. Thank you George-< ;-)) Your SIS P.S. This was great concepting: "It seems that the general opinion is that we should pray to further our own relationship (with) God more than to try to get Him to change His mind about things, what ever they may be." | ||
| Joni |
Dear all, I also have enjoyed ALL your posts. As I was reading them all a few thoughts crossed my mind. If we are heir's of the kingdom, through the blood of Christ and join in the work of the kingdom, to preach the Gospel (Gospel meaning good news,to preach repentance and forgiveness of sins through Jesus, not the "3 angels message") in season and out of season, and we have this goal in mind... won't we pray according to His will, and let Him work it out accordingly, no matter what the outcome. When we pray according to His will the prayer DOES get answered. And we have faith: Pistis, 4102, (1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief, in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it. 1. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ. 2. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the Kingdom of God. belief with the predominate idea of trust or confidence whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same. (from crossroads.com) A firm persusion, conviction, ability to believe. To win over, belief in truth. (From Zodhiates) to believe in Him and know our prayer was answered. This does not negate our emotional response at times. Questioning and wondering "why" does not make us less faithful, but plays a part in helping us to have more faith in God and His Sovernity. Whether we question, or seem to loose "faith" after such an experience is not the main issue. Isn't the main issue after the fact. In what state do we end up??? Do we throw in the towel or do we finally let God be God and ask Him to give us the deep peace we need to get through, even with our lack of understanding. Have we uplifted each other and continued the faith?? If so, even when we do not understand, we have, as Colleen has said, "the joy of being secure in the eternity of His limitless love.". Only God truly knows all things, we are here to pass the torch.. And is not this the goal we want for others? So our prayers take on a true "praying in His will..............His will being to bring others unto reconciliation and to glorify Him. I suppose it is like "don't let the sun go down while you are angry." It is not the fact that we won't get angry, but that we finally work it out. And one way to work it out is to talk to others and to God. However we talk to Him, does it really matter, as long as we do????????????? Joni | ||
| Christianbiker |
Maryann You asked me for some background so here goes.Please excuse the spelling. I will try to condense as much as I can. I have been an SDA all my life, from a very conservative home. Steeped in legalism. Parents were hard-working farmers who did what they believed they should do to be good SDA's. I went to WWC where I met my wife. That was in the sixty's. Now you know my vintage. Got a BSc in Agriculture from Colorado than was involved in agriculture in sales, ranching,and teaching for 15 years. Went to Africa as missionaries to teach agriculture in the late 70's. When we returned I left agriculture and took another degree in Religion at CUC(Canada)and began pastoring a church. When I started pastoring I was deep into legalism,(Firm Foundation kind of stuff). Found no peace in that negative garbage and through the writings of Jack Sequaira who I had known in Africa, I began to wrestle with Romans and the gospel. Spent 2 years of study and struggle pleading with God for truth. The gospel was like a breath of fresh air to my wife and I and we rejoiced in it. Pastored in Toronto for 5 years then moved back to Alberta and pastored a church that was ready for change and open minded and progressive. With help from Willowcreek we transitioned our church to be more gospel centered and seeker sensitive. It was a painful experience as we made some enemies in doing so and they left our church for a more fundamental historic SDA church. With help from Richard Federicks (Damascus Rd), Des Ford and Steve Daily, I began to realize the straw nature of some of our doctrines.(ie.Remanant Church,Inv.Judgement,EG White and others) I guess I would say that I studied and read myself to the place where I could no longer agree with a number of SDA doctrines. That created an internal conflict within as I was drawing my paycheck from an organization I thought I should be loyal to. That and the fact that we had some major crisis in our church lead me to experience 'burn-out' big time. I was off on disability for 6 mo. then decided I could not go back to pastoring and resigned 1 1/2 years ago. During my time off my wife and I got involved in the Christian Motorcycle Association in the city here. This has been a rich experience for us as we worked alongside other Christians to reach secular bikers. We probably have 6-8 denominations represented in our CMA chapter and yet we can work in harmony in sharing Christ. I am the chaplin of our chapter and enjoy that ministry. We attend some pretty hard-core secular bike rally's on many weekend's during the summer that 3 years ago we would never have been seen. We know we are doing exactly what Jesus would have done were He with us today. We just serve in those Rally's where we can and try to earn the right to speak to people about the Lord. Drugs and alcohol flow freely in those rally's but we are there to minister to whoever we can. We are still SDA's officially anyway but we enjoy worshiping in other non-denominational churches as well. I have enjoyed Ratzlaff's books and am probably moving in that direction. I want to be a New Testment Christian first and as I see it Jesus made it very simple in following him. "Love me and love one another" I see things so very differently now and praise God for leading me out of legalism into His glorious 'Grace'. I have pastored churches that were full of people wounded deeply by legalism and it is painful to see especially since I was one time an EGWhite thumper and probably drove many away from Christ. Sorry this is such a long story but now you know a bit more about this Canadian 'Biker'. I have enjoyed reading in the forum. Does anyone know the whereabouts of Steve Daily after he left La Sererria College? I'd love to get in touch with him. Blessings to you and I'll stay in touch. | ||
| George |
To all, There is still something that needs to be figured out about prayer. Why is it that after only a few months I have a peace that very few of you seem to have? Why am I so content to have God do with my life as He will that I canít think of anything to ask for. What ever He wants is OK with me. Do I have so much more faith than the rest of you that I donít have to work at it, but can just let things happen knowing it is what He wants. Or am I just kidding myself? My biggest problem is in getting some feed back on my ideas. Some of them may be right and some of them may be wrong, but they are all worth taking a look at. George | ||
| Steve |
Hi Christian Biker, I haven't been on the FAF website much lately, but checked in and saw your post. As late as last year, I sat in (and helped teach) a Sabbath school class, in which Steve Daily also taught occasionally (not that I'm up to that caliber, by any means!) Steve was always provocative and thoughtful. I kind of wonder how he can remain SDA with some of the positions he takes on various SDA distinctives. I can help you find him. I know he's working with one of the Loma Linda churches (I live near Loma Linda, and until recently, attended the La Sierra church, where I still have membership.) We also have a friend in common, who I'll be seeing tomorrow evening. I can get his e-mail for you if you'd like. Please send me your e-mail address. My e-mail is: actstwo42@juno.com Hopefully I'll have his e-mail and you can contact him directly. Good to read your story and looking forward to more from you. God Bless, Steve | ||
| Maryann |
Hi George, I'm amazed that people don't pick up and discuss some of the things you bring up?! I may have to discuss it with you;-)) Your last couple post have really been good?! Maybe next week.........Sis Hi Biker, How about you taking a stab at George's last few post's???? I'd love to hear your perspective! BTW, GREAT story and "NO" it wasn't too long! Do mind sharing what part of Canada you are from now? You or anyone else can e-write me at gogold@quixnet.net Maryann | ||
| Chyna |
hey, Christian biker :) my ex-b/f dated Steve Daily's daughter. I know he has their e-mail address coz he sent them mission updates. if Steve doesn't pan out, maybe I can help. Chyna | ||
| Lydell |
Okay George, I'll take a shot at it. No there's nothing wrong with your feeling of peace. But can I challenge you to do a bit of thinking? To approach all of your Christian walk with the attitude of whatever God will do for me He will do, eventually can lead to "whatever will be will be", in other words an attitude of fatalism that runs contrary to the scriptures and an abdication of any responsibility to be actively involved in growing. Again, it just flies in the face of the admonitions to "ask". Look at Christ's teaching on prayer in Matt. 6. He begins by admonishing them not to pray for show, not to pray to call attention to themselves, not to get into babbling (or continually begging as you have pointed out). Then he goes on to give an example of how to pray. First He taught them to acknowledge God as father, then ask for his kingdom to come, then ask for their daily bread (he didn't just assume that God would provide), to forgive our debts, and keep them from temptation (again, something we would assume God would automatically want to do), and deliver them from evil (again, surely He would be willing to do that already). You can see that there are a number of things listed there that we can know that God already knows what they need, He is willing and anxious to do, yet Jesus was still telling them to ask for these things. Why? Evidently Christ himself didn't see that asking for needs to be met would come into conflict with the peace that you are experiencing. Are we back then to the question of some losing their faith because of their requests not being answered in the way they had hoped? There has to be a long list of reasons why the request wasn't answered in the positive. The first that comes to mind is to question if their prayers were in agreement with the Lord's will in the situation. Were they praying from the desire prompted by their own emotion, or was it as a result of asking first, "Lord how would you have me pray for this person?" Are they actively engaged in asking for healing only in the most desperate of situations and only rarely, or are they in the habit of always praying for healing for the sick....how much experience has there been? We are encouraged to pray for the sick to be healed. We can't argue with that. I think our problem comes in forgetting to pray that the kingdom will go forward through the situation. What is our view of God? Can he only work by making the situation perfect? Or can he also bring hope, joy, peace, and victory even if the situation appears to come out horribly? Are we willing to honestly trust His word that He has the best intent for us, and others, through ALL situations? We can hear incorrectly. We can act out of an emotional response to the need. We can lose sight of God's great purpose for the world. We can forget that He sees the big picture while we only see what is smack before us. We can forget his other promises to never leave us comfortless. Those things are not His fault. It comes down to our being in prayer for something brings our thoughts in tune with His purpose so that we can hear His voice of direction for action. It keeps us open to His leading in unexpected directions. It keeps us open to see things through His eyes. I don't know what your experience has been so far in your walk in ministering to others. I can tell you only what I have seen in my own experience (partly from being on a prayer team at our church). When someone asks you for prayer, they most assuredly don't want to hear you say, "well, whatever God wants is what He'll do." These are folks who have been slammed by situations, people, and problems, they are crushed and broken. They need someone to come alongside them and get them pointed back in the right direction. They are acting on their last shred of faith to ask others to pray for them. In a sense, they are asking you to loan them a bit of faith to keep them going. Very very often you won't have an inkling what the real problem is in their situation. You can know what they tell you, and nothing more. That's when we look to James 1:5-6 "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does." There's an example of your peace and yet asking tied together. You ask... while resting in the peace that He IS faithful to answer. Without that peace you speak of, you won't hear his answer because you are still in the turmoil of "what the heck do I do?" We are told that "the prayer of faith will save the sick" in James 5:15. So should we give up praying for them because we don't see the answer we expect in certain situations? We see in I Tim. 5:5 that the righteous widow "day and night is praying and asking God" for help. She's not told that she is being a wimp to do that. We are told in I Tim. 2:1 to offer up requests, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving for those in authority rather than to sit back and assume that the Lord will do what He will do. So evidently He wants us to be talking with Him about that subject as well. Notice in Ephesians 6 that after we put on the whole armor of God and are standing (or resting at peace as you have pointed out) we are STILL told in v. 18 to "pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." (again the admonition to make requests, not just assume that whatever will be will be....and yes I do realize that I am taking this to extremes...but it is where it can end up. There are those who don't bother to pray for the sick any more because "God will do what God will do".) "With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints." George I can guarantee you that in your walk with the Lord you are going to have situations that come up that are going to rock you out of your rest and peace. Actually, that is a good thing. If we are always at a place of peace, then almost certainly we aren't allowing the Lord to take us into ministries and new areas that take us out of our comfort zone. It seems that if we humans spend too much time at peace and rest, we can become complacent and weak. So SOAK UP the peace during the peace filled season you are in now. Likely the Lord is providing this time for your healing in many areas, I know He has done that with me as well. Learn absolutely all you can about the renewing of the mind, the armor of God, and the good things of God. It's the stuff you are soaking up now that will come back to take you through the storms. Actually, that stuff is what you are going to need every time he takes you out of the comfort zone to stretch you in areas you have not entered as yet. If he doesn't take us out of the comfort zone occassionally, we don't learn how to be reliant on him in the ministries and/or giftings He gives. We need the exercise of challenge. Sorry that was so longwinded. But it all is tied together really. | ||
| George |
Lydell, I can't thank you enough for your responce. There is a lot to digest. I like your idea of someone borrowing a little faith when they ask for prayer. Ididn't think that praying would cause problems with my peace, I just have everything now that I could want---peace. When you have that there seems little need for anything else. There is more I would like to say but I have to go to work and don't know when I will have a chance at the computer again. Thanks again-----George | ||
| Cindy |
To All, Not sure where to put this, but thought here under the title of thoughts on faith might be appropriate. I received it today from an AA friend...Perhaps you've read it before; I thought it was good...It's entitled: JUST PEDAL At first I saw God as my observer, my judge, keeping track of the things I did wrong, so as to know whether I merited Heaven or Hell when I die. He was out there sort of like a President. I recognized his picture when I saw it, but I really didn't know Him. But later on, when I met God, it seemed as though life were rather like a bike ride; but it was a tandem bike...and I noticed that God was at the back, helping me pedal. I don't know when it was that He suggested that we change places, but life has not been the same since. When I had control, I knew the way. It was rather boring, but predictable. It was the shortest distance betweeen two points. But when He took the lead, He knew delightful long cuts, up mountains and through rocky places at breakneck speeds. It was all I could do to hang on! Even though it looked like madness, He said, "Pedal!" I worried and was anxious and asked, "Where are you taking me?" He laughed and didn't answer, and I started to learn to trust. I forgot my boring life and entered into the adventure. And when I'd say "I'm scared," He'd lean back and touch my hand. He took me to people with gifts that I needed; gifts of healing, acceptance and joy. They gave me gifts to take on my journey. And we were off again. He said, "Give the gifts away; they're extra baggage, too much weight." So I did, to the people we met; and I found that in giving I received... And still our burden was light. I did not trust Him, at first, in control of my life. I thought He'd wreck it; but He knows bike secrets...knows how to make it bend to take sharp corners, knows how to jump to clear high rocks, knows how to fly to shorten scary passages. And I am learning to shut up and pedal in the strangest places. And I'm beginning to enjoy the view and the cool breeze on my face with God as my delightful constant companion. And when I'm sure I just can't do anymore, He just smiles and says, "Pedal" | ||
| Max |
That's beautiful, Cindy -- good works (pedaling) resulting from real grace alone! Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
But any idea that your pedalling contributes in any way to your salvation or to the maintaining of your salvation is totally mistaken and unscriptural. However, Scripture is clear that we must keep pedalling. For we should ^^7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, TRAIN YOURSELF to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10 (and for this WE LABOR AND STRIVE), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.^^ --I Tmonty 4:7-10 NIV/ | ||
| Patti |
This being the case, are we lost in we do not "pedal"? Or if we do not pedal "enough"? | ||
| Patti |
Typo warning: "If" not "in" | ||
| Max |
It is only human theorizing -- not Scripture -- which seeks to second guess God and to try to discover in advance who's saved and who's lost. The true believer follows and obeys Jesus Christ's commands. In place of human opinion, here's Scripture: NIV John 10: 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." Blessings! | ||
| Patti |
It was a question, Max, not a theory. How come you will never answer my questions? You razzed Ken for the longest for avoiding yours. You raised a point; I am merely asking for clarification on your thoughts. | ||
| Max |
Any human question raised about whether any particular grace-claimer is lost or saved can only be answered by Scripture alone. And Scripture's answer is fully sufficient for all such questions. Here it is again: NIV John 10: 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." Blessings! | ||
| Cindy |
Patti and Max, Our Salvation in secure in Christ whether we "pedal" or not! He ALONE has done the Perfect "pedalling"!!! Many times I have not even felt like pedalling, and even now my pedalling can be sporadic at best. Praise God I can even put my feet up and glide along with Him! I have come to see that he calls us to a life of a discipline of trusting... trusting in HIM to be in charge of where we go and how we turn out!! He calls us to follow Him, for He knows that in staying close to Him is where we will find our real, true and deep joy; not necessarily happiness all the time, but an inner joy that is not disturbed by OUR failures or shortcomings. He bikes us through dificulties that develop our perseverance, increase our faith, and strengthen our hope--when we continue trusting in Him alone. And still, we ALWAYS, always, always, still REST in the knowledge of His Perfect accomplishment of the entire journey!!! We just keep pedalling...usually for me this is just a matter of getting up in the morning and saying "God, thank-you for your free gift of grace!... I want to abandon myself to you today...please guide me and stay close as you have promised to do..." and then going and doing the duty that lies nearest to me to do that day. I must admit that I tend towards despair many mornings: and so I have learned to allow extra time in the morning to Rest in His promises. Along with the wonderful Psalms and other Scriptures, I have been blessed with "My Utmost for His Highest" by Oswald Chambers along with Al-anon books such as "One Day at a Time". Lots of others, also. I could sit and read for hours literally...Unless all of you were around, then we could talk for hours and hours! I would love that! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Our Salvation IS secure! | ||
| Max |
The salvation of not everyone who claims grace is secure. That is a human theory with no scriptural support. Here's Scripture: 15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' 24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." Blessings! |
