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Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 1 » Protestants Have Returned to the Roman Catholic Doctrine of Justification » Archive through October 21, 2000 « Previous Next »

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Max
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rayna,

You'll forgive me if I choose not to discuss the
ecumenical movement as it relates to the
Lutherans and the Roman Catholics at this
time on this web site.

I'll be happy to discuss any Scripture with you,
however.

Blessings always,

Max of the Cross
Rayna
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why won't you Max? Mystery here. I will not compromise my belief.

Rayna
Max
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 3:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Rayna,

I judge it not best for this web site. This is my
boundary and it has nothing to do with you per
se. And so I would anticipate that you would
respect it.

Christ's peace to you,

Max of the Cross
Max
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ps. I renew my offer to discuss any Scripture
with you.
Rayna
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 4:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I really do not need for you to tell me what you believe as I already know what I believe and what Martin Luther taught and the Pauline doctrine of Justification by faith alone before God in the declaration of righteousness by faith for the sinner.

I also know the meaning of the word grace concerning Catholics. It means the infusion of righteousness in believers. So I think I understand all I need to know. I am not part of this ecumenical movement between the Lutherans and the Catholics. Whatever it turns out it will not change the truth of justification by faith alone according to the bible or the reformation.

People that do not study independently will be deceived, so I suggest that people study on their own this truth from the Bible that they may be able to give an Biblical answer when questioned concerning their faith about this belief.

It is nothing but a false gospel that will attempt to deceive the whole world. We will just need to study and watch what happens in this movement.

Are You a part of it Max? Sounds fishy to me. You leave me with a lot of unanswered questions about you. Your posts have been very contradictory and confusing, so am surely wondering!!!
Patti
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I will be glad to talk about it, Rayna!

It is a relatively small step that that particular branch of Lutherans made, because Protestantism, in general, has drifted steadily back toward Rome on the all-important doctrine of justification. John Wesley was an important figure in this drift. He was a devout and sincere person, but his work in refocusing believers on their "righteousness" was a major factor in the corrupting of the Reformational Gospel. I am currently reading his biography. While it is true that he sincerely and honestly strove toward the perfect standard of obedience to God, it is also true that he never had any confidence in his standing with God. This is because the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us is always downplayed when the regeneration of the believer is uplifted. Wesley's followers were called Method-ists (a rather legalistic term in itself if you think about it) because of their "method" of gaining acceptance with God. The early 19th century Methodists were very legalistic (granted things are much different in the Methodist churches today; yet their gospel is still an Arminian one, one in which we are saved by our freewill as opposed to election by God), and guess where the roots of SDAism are solidly grounded? In Methodism. In fact the entire hysterical Advent movement came out of this legalistic environment, and gave birth, directly or indirectly, to a host of cultic groups, SDAs being only one of them.

Regardless, I think that SDAs are right when they claim that the reformational Gospel has been lost or hidden for years, but they are wrong in exactly what that Gospel is.

Today, most of Protestantism teaches a gospel of regeneration. I passed a sign on the highway today coming home from the post office that said, "You can have a changed life," and the name of some independent Bible fellowship. Christianity, though, it not about a changed life. It is about a Perfect Life. Protestantism has been trying to sell a bogus product for years. Many people turn out to try and buy it, but after awhile, when they realize that they haven't truly changed, that they are still sinful with sinful habits and tendencies, they get discouraged and drop any form of Christianity altogether. Christians are peddling the righteousness of the individual, a false gospel, as you described, Rayna, instead of the merits of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And that is why Christianity is so tepid in our society today. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but sooner or later, people will wake up and realize that, like the Emperor and his "new clothes," they are parading around in their nakedness when they think they are wearing a suit of their own making, with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course.

And this is also the essence of the Roman gospel. It is a fallacy that the Catholics believe in righteousness by works. They vehemently deny this. Their gospel is by the grace of God alone. But they define this grace to include the working of the Holy Spirit in the life. This is why the Reformers were very careful to distinguish between the grace of God that saves us (God's mercy toward undeserving sinners) and the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer. Rome sees no such distinction, and neither does Protestantism today (in general).

So with the Lutherans having a gospel that includes regeneration (They drop the "alone" in the reformational cry of "sola fide"; They no longer insist that Salvation is by faith alone.) the differences between them and the RCC are merely cosmetic.

The interesting (and sad) thing is that Rome has given no ground. They still stand firmly on the Council of Trent, which was written in answer to the Reformer's claims. If Rome has not moved, then who has? The Protestants. And now most Protestants think the difference between the Gospel of Luther and the Roman gospel is merely a matter of semantics. The rift between them and the RCC has become a tiny crack in the ground, easily patched, easily crossed.

There is a group of Protestants who maintain the proper distinction between the righteousness of Christ and the works of man. But they are in the minority. And they are verbally persecuted by those who believe that the work of the Holy Spirit in us is just as important as the work of Christ for us. Wherever the Gospel is proclaimed, persecution follows. Because the Gospel is a 2-edged sword. It is Good News for those who realize that there is no way they can contribute the least thing of positive value to their salvation; it is the doctrine of demons for those who wish to hang on to the notion that they are in charge of working out their own salvation.

Whew.
Sorry to be so long-winded. Reformational theology just happens to be one of my favorite subjects.

Looking forward to hearing more from you, Rayna. Thanks.

Grace and peace,
Patti
Max
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple
whom Jesus loved following; which also
leaned on his breast at supper, and said,
Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter
seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what
shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I
will that he tarry till I come, what is that to
thee? follow thou me. --John 21:20-22
Max
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 4:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I charge thee therefore before God, and the
Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick
and the dead at his appearing and his
kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in
season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort
with all long suffering and doctrine. For the
time will come when they will not endure
sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall
they heap to themselves teachers, having
itching ears; And they shall turn away their
ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto
fables. --2 Timothy 4:1-4
Rayna
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your right Max, seems like the Protestants are heaping unto themselves teachers having itching ears. They have definitely turned away their ears from the truth and have turned unto fables.

I totally agree.

Rayna
Rayna
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti thank you so much for your post. Now I truly understand why people are so excited about the changed life. They truly have downgraded the imputation of Christ righteousness and uplifted the catholic doctrine of grace (the infusion of rightousness in the believer) No wonder all christian music is about the changed life. Like I said Protestants have returned to Rome!!!

Well, I guess the Reformation will be alive again with the true teaching of the imputed righteousness of Jesus to the believer by faith alone.

And persecution will arise again. Well, we need to be ready to give our all for this faith. As death has been overcome by Jesus. It is a conquered foe. These people that teach an infusion of righteousness and the changed life, surely do have impulsive tempers when it comes to this discussion of justification.

Well, lets put it this way. God will see that this truth will not fail. It was upheld in the Reformation teaching and it will be proclaimed again. Even the very rocks will cry out this truth. God shall receive all the glory alone, and man will be as grass.

How sad, how sad that people are so easily deceived. May God help us Patti to hold up this truth. Rayna
Rayna
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I reread the post that states Max beliefs concerning this ecumenical movement. (see the thread "Are you Catholic or Protestant" ) I see he is in favor of it. He believes we should all be "ONE". What a shock!!!!!!! No wonder he does not want to comment.

There is no way the RCC teaching of Justification can be reconciled to the Reformation teaching of Jusification by faith alone before God. I am so happy to be aware of what I really going on in the religious world. So glad I have learned the truth of the Reformation teaching of Justification by faith alone.


So many people are asleep and unaware of what is really going on. I have just awakened out of sleep myself. Now I am wide awake. A new gospel has been formed. A false gospel, not according to the Biblical teaching, but according to the Roman Catholic church.
Patti
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 7:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are right, Rayna. The doctrine of all churches and all individuals must stand or fall on this one central doctrine: Our right standing with God on the basis of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ alone. You are right also in that one cannot reconcile the two gospels:

salvation through vicarious work of Jesus Christ alone, or

salvation by the work of Jesus and our own efforts (good works, changed lives, love for our neighbors) even when aided by the Holy Spirit.

Never the twain shall meet.
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 9:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Children, do not let anyone lead you astray, He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:7-10
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. HE IS THE ATONING SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS, AND NOT ONLY FOR OURS BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. 1 John 2:1-2
I don't know if this applies to this seeming debate but it seemed good to put it here anyhow.
God Bless all,
Denise
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 10:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

2 Corinthians 5:12-21
We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who TAKE PRIDE IN WHAT IS SEEN RATHER THAN IN WHAT IS IN THE HEART. If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that ONE DIED FOR ALL AND THEREFORE ALL DIED. And HE DIED FOR ALL, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for HIM WHO DIED FOR THEM AND WAS RAISED AGAIN. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a NEW CREATION; the old has gone, the new has come! ALL THIS IS FROM GOD, WHO RECONCILED US TO HIMSELF THROUGH CHRIST and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that GOD WAS RECONCILING THE WORLD TO HIMSELF IN CHRIST, NOT COUNTING MENS SINS AGAINST THEM. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christs's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: BE RECONCILED TO GOD. GOD MADE HIM WHO HAD NO SIN TO BE SIN FOR US, SO THAT IN HIM WE MIGHT BECOME THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.
..God Bless all,
Denise
Maryann
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Rayna,

In reading the last dozen post today on this thread, a thought came to me.

Thank God for you!!!

There are probably un-told hundreds of people reading these post's everyday that can really relate to you.

I believe that God is using you to purge the blinding angery accusations from their own lives when they see it in black and white here in some of these post's.

I imagine it is like looking in a mirror for some.

I know, the SDA mindset is sooooooooo hard to lose.

The other thing is:

CATHOLIC ARE PEOPLE TOO!!!!

GOD LOVES CATHOLIC PEOPLE TOO!!!!

JESUS DIED FOR CATHOLICS TOO!!!!

Why is it that where ever I go, in and around SDA communities and mindsets, that I and so many other's are likened to Catholics? Do you really think they are the dregs of society?

It seems like when it's time to slam someone, USE A CATHOLIC! WHY?? I'm finding it more interesting by the day to notice that CATHOLIC'S are the favorite slamming tool!! Grrrrrrrrr! Why don't you try using Mormom's or Islamic's? Do you really think that Catholics have the corner in the market of errant theology? You don't have to go back very far to see how errant you were as an SDA.

This is kind of like the kid that fell in a mud hole and then tried to yank every helping hand back in the mire with him.

My prayer is that God will soften your heart to ALL your brother's and sister's.

You know, we all have had pain too.

Upward and onward........Maryann
Maryann
Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2000 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi All,

I found this post by one of our favorite theologians, Lori.

I might be wrong in a detail or two as there are just so many people that I've met on this forum and some details could get jumbled.

It was Lori's "fruits of the Spirit", sweet nature and reaching out to my brother George that brought him to the point where he for the first time understood, accepted and believed in Jesus.

For you that don't know Lori, she's this wonderful little gal with, (I think 3 children) and an awesome, awesome, awesome husband. She was a 3rd (?) generation SDA that had an un-believing husband (according to the SDA church). Her husband witnessed to her for most of their marriage in a "fruits of the Spirit" way.

Well, now she is a FORMER SDA! She loves to study and really has a way with writing. She seldom stops by anymore as she is rather busy. We really miss her. I'll see if I can find one of her personal stories and post it later.

Anyway, she posted this and I think it will dispel any inkling of Catholisim being toted here:

**********************************

"Former Adventist Fellowship Forum: DISCUSSION: Inspiration---Are we judged by our acceptance of grace or by our good works?


By Lori on Thursday, March 23, 2000 - 11:05 am:
Who is your attorney?
(author unknown)

After living a "decent" life my time on earth came to an end. The first
thing I remember is sitting on a bench in the waiting room of what I
thought to be a court house. The doors opened and I was instructed to come
in and have a seat by the defense table. As I looked around I saw the
"prosecutor," he was a villainous looking gent who snarled as he stared at
me, he definitely was the most evil person I have ever seen. I sat down
and looked to my left and there sat my lawyer, a kind and gentle looking
man whose appearance seemed very familiar to me. The corner door flew
open and there appeared the judge in full flowing robes. He commanded an
awesome presence as he moved across the room and I couldn't take my eyes
off of him. As he took his seat behind the bench he said "Let us begin.

"The prosecutor rose and said "My name is Satan and I am here to show you
why this man belongs in hell. "He proceeded to tell of lies that I told,
things that I stole and in the past when I cheated others. Satan told of
other terrible perversions that were once in my life and the more he spoke
the further down in my seat I sank. I was so embarrassed that I couldn't
look at anyone, even my own lawyer, as the Devil told of sins that even I
had completely forgotten about.

As upset as I was at Satan for telling all these things about me, I was
equally upset at my representative who sat there silently not offering
any form of defense at all. I know I had been guilty of those things, but
I had done some good in my life - couldn't that at least equal out part
of the harm I've done? Satan finished with a fury and said "This man
belongs in hell, he is guilty of all that I have charged and there is not
a person who can prove otherwise. When it was his turn, my lawyer first
asked if he might approach the bench. The judge allowed this over the
strong objection of Satan, and beckoned him to come forward.

As he got up and started walking I was able to see him now in his full
splendor and majesty. Now I realized why he seemed so familiar, this was
Jesus representing me, my Lord and my Savior. He stopped at the bench and
softly said to the judge "Hello,Father" and then he turned to address the court.
"Satan was correct in saying that this man had sinned, I won't deny any of
these allegations. And yes the wages of sins is death and this man
deserves to be punished". Jesus took a deep breath and turned to his
Father with outstretched arms and proclaimed "However, I died on the cross
so that this person might have eternal life and he has accepted me as his
Savior, so he is mine. "My Lord continued with "His name is written in the
book of life and no one can snatch him from me. Satan still does not
understand yet, this man is not to be given justice but rather mercy. "As
Jesus sat down, he quietly paused,looked at his Father and replied "There
is nothing else that needs to be done, I've done it all". The Judge lifted
his mighty hand and slammed the gavel down and the following words
bellowed from his lips- "This man is free - the penalty for him has
already been paid in full, case dismissed.

"As my Lord led me away I could hear Satan ranting and raving "I won't
give up, I'll win the next one." I asked Jesus as he gave me my
instructions where to go next, "Have you ever lost a case?" Christ
lovingly smiled and said, "Everyone that has come to me and asked me to
represent them has received the same verdict as you...Paid in Full."

What would happen if we tried to represent ourselves? What could we lay before the judge that would out weigh the facts from the prosecutor? Would this be enough? Would it equal righteous? Or would we be found wanting. Our good works equal filthy rags, in contrast the grace we obtain through Jesus Christ equals righteousness. I don't know about you, but I don't want 'Good Works' to be my attorney, I want to stand under the representation of Christ and be covered by grace!!!


By Maryann on Thursday, March 23, 2000 - 12:53 pm:
Lori,

That was great. I plan to print that out and frame it. Reminds me of a song that only our black friends can do justice to; Jesus dropped the charges, Jesus dropped the charges, Jesus dropped the charges, CASE DISMISSED!

Thank you so much, I really needed to hear that. Actually rather moving.

Maryann"

********************************

I believe that will all my heart!!

BUT!!!!!!!!

This does NOT relieve us of the responsibility representing Christ with "fruits of the Spirit!"

If Fruits of the Spirit" were an unimportant subject, why are there soooo many "fruit bearing" stories and parables?

Again...."Fruits of the Spirit" are in our lives BECAUSE we are save NOT TO BE SAVED!

Upward and onward...........Maryann
Pat
Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 5:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess I have been really blessed in that I was led to work in a church which taught the true Gospel, and the other churches I have worked in since, as well as the one to which I belong, believe and teach salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone. Jesus Christ is the crux of all true religion...Maybe God was just looking out for me - and I am grateful to have been surrounded by pastors and members who believe it!

Pat
Billtwisse
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2000 - 6:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THE GLASS OF WATER:

This simple illustration will go a long way in explaining the difference between the RC and biblical doctrine of justification.

Our lives may be compared to a glass that God requires to be full. Because of original and personal sin, our own glass is empty (on this point--the RC teachers and Bible doctrine agree). For a thorough and historic presentation of Rome's doctrine of justification, see "The Theology of Man and Grace" by Edmund Fortman, Jr.

So those of us who recognize our need for salvation are compelled to cry out: "fill my glass Lord."

According to the RC teaching, God begins to fill your glass when you pray that prayer. He fills it a little, then more, then more, then more yet. But you can never know that it is full in this life. Impossible! Who knows that he/she is perfect? So assurance of final salvation is absolutely impossible!

According to the revelation of the gospel given to Paul, Christ has already filled the empty glasses of all who would be given faith in his person and work. He who knew no sin was counted to be sin for us, that we might be reckoned as equal to the righteousness of God in him!

Therefore, God does not fill up our glass in installments. He substitutes Christ's full glass in the place of our empty glass--immediately and eternally. We are assured of this fact when the Holy Spirit works faith in our hearts.

What a gospel! I will never exchange this gospel for that of Rome.

--Twisse
Patti
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2000 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hooray, Bill!
You are so right!
Jesus Christ is our full and complete righteousness today and in the judgment!

"Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!"
Or, perhaps better put, I am His!
And no one, nothing, neither height nor depth nor principalities nor things present nor things t0o come, can snatch me out of His hand!
He is worthy; therefore, my salvation is sure!
Maryann
Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 1:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Patti,

It was stated:

"Jesus Christ is our full and complete righteousness today and in the judgment!"

I believe that also, with my heart, mind and soul!

Will you please state the post's with the date, time and author that says ANYTHING else but that please?

Maryann

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