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Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Wendy,

I guess this was before your time. I had a fluke of a thing happen and had cancer on my tongue. The Doctor's in Las Vegas said it wasn't anything to worry about and it definately wasn't cancer. Well, I did. I asked FAF Bruce to see if he could get me in to see someone and he did. Got the correct diagnosis and had about 20% of the side of my tongue filleted off and a piece of my hind side grafted on. Yeh, that created pages of jokes too!;-))

It was real ouchy too! :-(( Well, that was the short version. The whole experience has been a blessing to a number of people. And plenty of fun has been generated by it too. Sooo, here's to the bright side:

Onward and upward........Maryann
Bmorgan
Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2000 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think this should be under a NEW Discussion- thread, and if Richard or someone can put it there, it would be great.
Suggested Topic: "Recommended Reading List"

Ever so often, we come across good books. occasionally, I notice someone mentions or recommends books that they've gained insight from. I am suggesting that on this thread we share our personal recommendations. It makes it easier than having to search through the many posts.
Be creative!

I highly recommend these.

John Ortberg
The Life You've Always wanted.

John Piper
Desiring God; The Godward Life.

Beth Moore
Praying God's Word.

Frangipane, Francis
The Three Battlegrounds. (Spiritual Warfare)

Jean Flemming
Feeding the Soul. (Quiet time Manual)


Specials for healing:

JLeBron McBride
Spiritual Crisis-Surviving Trauma to the Soul.

Ronald Enroth
Recovering From Churches that Abuse.

VanVonderen, Jeff
Families Where Grace is in Place.

Sandford, J&P and Norm Bowman
Choosing forgiveness.


Share yours please, I need new reading matter:))
From time to time our interests change and grow, and we can sharpen each other.

In Christ Alone
BMorgan
Lydell
Posted on Monday, August 21, 2000 - 5:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Surprised By the Voice of God, by Jack Deere
Colleentinker
Posted on Monday, August 21, 2000 - 9:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They Found the Secret by V. Raymond Edman, Zondervan

Keep a Quiet Heart by Elisabeth Elliot, Vine Books
Chyna
Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2000 - 8:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's So Amazing About Grace by Philip Yancey
Dennis
Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2000 - 6:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Jesus I Never Knew by Philip Yancey
Steve
Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2000 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Gang,

There's a book discussion thread, started yesterday. Would be a good place for those mentioned above to be listed.

Steve
Bmorgan
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2000 - 4:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve,
That's the idea I had in mind when I started the post. How about moving all the books on this thread over to the Book Review thread you started?

Even if someone does not give a review of the book, at least he/she could recommend it for reading if it is good
Thanks.

BMorgan
Chyna
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 2:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

an article by an ex-SDA

former members of restrictive religious groups

Other Identification Marks of a cult:

(a) The group will have an ELITIST view of itself in relation to others, and a UNIQUE CAUSE. e.i. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES RIGHT - everyone else is wrong. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING GODíS WILL - everyone else is in apostasy.

let's play how many marks can the SDA church earn according to ways cults work.

1. Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority given by God.

2. They believe they are the only true church and take a critical stance regarding the Christian church while at the same time praising and exalting their own group, leader/s and work.

3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon; being shunned by their family and friends etc. This is a vital part of the mind control process.

4. Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group. This could be compulsory tithing (which is checked); signing over all their property on entering the group; coercive methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contributed; selling magazines, flowers or other goods for the group as part of their ìministryî.

At the same time bible-based cults may ridicule churches that take up free-will offerings by passing collection plates and/or sell literature and tapes. They usually brag that they donít do this. This gives outsiders the intimation that they are not interested in money.

5. There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings. The lives of members will be totally absorbed into the groupís activities. They will have little or no time to think for themselves because of physical and emotional exhaustion. This is also a vital part of the mind control process.

6. There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members. This control can be direct through communal living, or constant and repetitious teaching on ìhow to be a true Christianî or ìbeing obedient to leadershipî. Members will look to their leaders for guidance in everything they do.

7. Any dissent or questioning of the groupís teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission. This is vigilantly maintained.

8. Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way. This could be in the form of ìdobbingî on fellow members (including family) under the guise of looking out for their ìspiritual welfareî. They may be required to deliberately lie (heavenly deception) or give up their lives by refusing some form of medical treatment.

9. Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats. Some may have taken oaths of loyalty that involve their lives or have signed a ìcovenantî and feel threatened by this.

Refugees of the group are usually faced with confrontations by other members with coercion to get them to return to the group.


1. egw
2. sabbath, special truths, "remnant church"
3. losing salvation if you don't keep the sabbath? this is an iffy one. leaving the church is apostasy.
4. heavy emphasis on giving
5. adventists are nothing but loyal
6. adventist education system is a good example of this
7. can you say "disfellowshipped?"
9. visits by the pastor after trying to leave? pleadings by the family members3. Paranoid - We Are Being Persecuted

Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no, it is regarded as ìpersecutionî. Any criticism of the individual is also seen as persecution only because they are the ìtrue Christianî or ìenlightenedî one - not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However, at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say and do because they are ìthe only ones who are rightî.

They are made to feel guilty of everything they did before entering the group and are to strive to be ìgoodî and ìworthyî for ìeternal lifeî. Misdemeanors are made into ìmountainsî so that members are in a constant state of guilt for infringing even the most minor rules. Guilt comes because they arenít doing enough; entertaining doubts or questions; even thinking rationally for oneself.

This guilt is piled upon pile with new rules constantly being laid down about what is sinful and what is not. Illness may be seen as lack of faith - more guilt. Emotional illness may be seen as proof of sin in your life - more guilt.
Chyna
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 2:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

on leaving a cult:

It Hurts to discover you were deceived - that what you thought was the ìone true religion,î the ìpath to total fredom,î or ìtruthî was in reality a cult.

It Hurts when you learn that people you trusted implicitly - whom you were taught not to question - were ìpulling the wool over your eyesî albeit unwittingly.

It Hurts when you learn that those you were taught were your ìenemiesî were telling the truth after all - but you had been told they were liars, deceivers, repressive, satanic etc and not to listen to them.

It Hurts when you know your faith in God hasnít changed - only your trust in an organization - yet you are accused of apostasy, being a trouble maker, a ìJudasî. It hurts even more when it is your family and friends making these accusations.

It Hurts to realize their love and acceptance was conditional on you remaining a member of good standing. This cuts so deeply you try and suppress it. All you want to do is forget - but how can you forget your family and friends?

It Hurts to see the looks of hatred coming from the faces of those you love - to hear the deafening silence when you try and talk to them. It cuts deeply when you try and give your child a hug and they stand like a statue, pretending you arenít there. It stabs like a knife when you know your spouse looks upon you as demonised and teaches your children to hate you.

It Hurts to know you must start all over again. You feel you have wasted so much time. You feel betrayed, disillusioned, suspicious of everyone including family, friends and other former members.

It Hurts when you find yourself feeling guilty or ashamed of what you were - even about leaving them. You feel depressed, confused, lonely. You find it difficult to make decisions. You donít know what to do with yourself because you have so much time on your hands now - yet you still feel guilty for spending time on recreation.

It Hurts when you feel as thought you have lost touch with reality. You feel as though you are ìfloatingî and wonder if you really are better off and long for the security you had in the organization and yet you know you cannot go back.

It Hurts when you feel you are all alone - that no one seems to understand what you are feeling. It hurts when you realize your self confidence and self worth are almost non-existent.

It Hurts when you have to front up to friends and family to hear their ìI told you soî whether that statement is verbal or not. It makes you feel even more stupid than you already do - your confidence and self worth plummet even further.

It Hurts when you realize you gave up everything for the cult - your education, career, finances, time and energy - and now have to seek employment or restart your education. How do you explain all those missing years?

It Hurts because you know that even though you were deceived, you are responsible for being taken in. All that wasted time ... at least that is what it seems to you - wasted time.

The Pain Of Grief

Leaving a cult is like experiencing the death of a close relative or a broken relationship. The feeling is often described as like having been betrayed by someone with whom you were in love. You feel you were simply used.

There is a grieving process to pass through. Whereas most people understand that a person must grieve after a death etc, they find it difficult to understand the same applies in this situation. There is no instant cure for the grief, confusion and pain. Like all grieving periods, time is the healer.

Some feel guilty, or wrong about this grief. They shouldnít - It IS normal. It is NOT wrong to feel confused, uncertain, disillusioned, guilty, angry, untrusting - these are all part of the process. In time the negative feelings will be replaced with clear thinking, joy, peace, and trust.
Chyna
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

AHA! the term I was looking for is:

Cognitive Dissonance

the psychology term meaning they can experience one thing negatively but still be convinced that it was a positive experience or will relate to other people that it was a postive experience because admitting it was bad wouldn't be consistent with what they believed.

sorry random :).
Chyna
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hum, i guess i'm having a dialogue with myself, huh.

this is an awesome site i found by typing in 'adventism' into the yahoo search engine:

new perspectives on adventism
Colleentinker
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great contributions, Chyna! Your using the grief reactions to explain the feelings of leaving a cult are wonderful. The only thing missing, however, was the unexpected joy that offsets the pain when we leave the cult because we've found the grace of Jesus and have experienced his indwelling Holy Spirit. That joy literally makes the grief worth it. Jesus love, as the song says, is better than life!

BTW, I checked out the site you linked. I had the same old heavy feeling when I read it. It's still defending Adventism, just a redefined Adventism. There's a lot of explaining how the law and the Sabbath and the sanctuary should be viewed. There are even some really good statements of how Adventism has been wrong. But the site says it's upholding EGW and the basic heritage of Adventism by using new definitions and by using accurate biblical interpretation.

You know what I missed the most? There's no talk of Jesus! It's just new theological exegesis.

I guess I have a sinking feeling whenever I see an Adventist trying to explain how Adventism should reform itself and be biblical. Adventism cannot do that without admitting its original lies and deceptions. It cannot hold onto the distinctives and redcifine them and be any closer to the truth without admitting its original heresy.

I love your posts, Chyna! You have done some amazing research!

In His love,
Colleen
Chyna
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 7:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Colleen. I did get rather tired scrolling through the articles. I did enjoy the document by the ex-SDA Rainwater explicitly addressing the different doctrines.

You're right, I think that many people leave spiritually abusive groups and the ones that still have God will experience a greater joy than the luxury of being in a superficially accepting organization.

Points I thought were especially incisive on the topic of Adventism are: extreme reaction to criticism (how it is not tolerated), and the love and acceptance that is conditional.

In a word: freedom. I think freedom is what people in cults, or cult like organizations find once they leave.

I see your point, Colleen. There is some churning in the church to move towards orthodoxy. in fact my ex-b/f would like me to believe that he is mainstream Christian (and he's a Traditional Adventist). I thought it was good that they pointed out that Adventists think that they completed the reformation, but in fact are very very at odds with Reformation theology.

Reading the cult stuff gave me a sense of relief because even just through my ex's family I saw they had a very supportive environment. Little did I know that it stemmed from a cultic, or at least cult like religion. Also, I enjoyed the part where it says that cults are not brainwashing people. That they are offering an alternative view of reality. An exclusive elitist club will foster closeness simply because they are exclusive. Just like Maryann's topic of how she thought she was so much better than Sunday-keepers, because having a special truth allows those who possess it to look down on others. Also, there was an article about this one person named Kenny, when he left the church that the members felt like he just didn't "understand" the doctrine, that they couldn't even conceive that the doctrine was WRONG and that's why he left.

*sigh* i keep praying.

Thanks for the encouragement,
Chyna
Sherry2
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You've posted some good reading material, Chyna. Thanks for all your shares.
Delstar
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna, I needed what you have posted. God always knows just WHEN to make things happen. Thanks for letting Him lead in your life....when it was ME who needed you.

Jesus Is Enough
Terry
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2000 - 10:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna,
I have read that site extensively, as well, and found that it tries to give hope for the real meaning of Seventh-day Adventism (according to the site author-and I agree)-that of the true rest of the seventh day creation-a non-ending rest in God through Christ. Obviously, the author has loved his church and wants to do the same as the World Church of God has done. I doubt that it will happen in our life time. There are some beautiful writings on the site, yet one must eventually cut free from the SDA heritage to be truly free!
Terry
Chyna
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 2:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

wow, Delstar, thanks for letting me know that :). i feel so blessed that God has used me this way to meet you where you are now.

reading those articles is helping me form the final pieces of what i think about adventism and how to deal with it cognitively and emotionally.

especially what i found to be a relief was the way they described the ultra supportive environment that i had witnessed in the SDA community.

i was wondering 'are other christians just doing it wrong or something? they seem so close knit'

however, understanding what drove the close-knittedness is an 'exclusive club' idea made me realize that they were knit together not especially because of love and support for each other, but more that they were demonstrating love and support to one another because each person in the group will maintain and encourage each other to affirm that they are "special" and then you realize once you don't maintain and uphold the "special"ness of the group, they no longer love you the same way they did before.

and it's easy to see why. it's a threat to their alternate view of reality they have chosen.

for a second i was like, wait a minute, don't other Christians do that? and i paused. and then i concluded that no, Christians don't see themselves as part of an elitist group. they see themselves as no better, just saved. when Christians welcome nonbelievers into their group. they won't stop loving the nonbeliever if they do not believe. however, the adventist church will out of hand reject a nonadventist. sad, isn't it.

well, my eyes are drifting shut now, so g'night.

with love, Chyna
Colleentinker
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna, I really like the point you've pointed out: cults are not necessarily "brainwashing" their people; they're offering an alternate view of reality. That is so true!

Colleen
Patti
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2000 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BMorgan!
You did not leave a phone number!
And I do not have your email address. L
So sorry I missed your call!
(I was at the MD with my daughter.)
Please call me again, or email me your phone number.
Would love to talk with you!
Patti
drpatti@msn.com

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