Archive through October 26, 2000 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 1 » Protestants Have Returned to the Roman Catholic Doctrine of Justification » Archive through October 26, 2000 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Max
Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 1:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I will vouch for you, Maryann, for I believe
exactly as you do: "Jesus Christ is our full and
complete righteousness today and in the
judgment!" And I've never seen any post of
yours with anything other than that on it!

Blessings!
Rayna
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann, I just wanted to say that God does love Catholics. That is not what I am saying. I do,however, believe the teaching of the RCC is the religion of human nature. The worship of a man or of one's self. A man standing in the place of Jesus in the most Holy Place, believing he is infallible and he alone can receive the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture.

Whereas, the Bible teaches us that Jesus is the mediator between God and man. No church, or man can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Salvation is free and not given out by any church, but by faith alone in Jesus. The sins of the world are forgiven freely in Jesus, not in the confessional. Jesus is our Saviour, our righteousness, standing at the right hand of God. There is nothing or anyone in between us and God except Jesus our Saviour. Our sins are not imputed unto us for the sake of Jesus.

Also human nature has a great ego. One wants to live in luxury and believe that he is righteous before God by good works with the aid of the Holy Spirit, or infused righteousness, not by faith alone in the imputed righteousness of Jesus. He does not feel his sinfulness and dependence on God's mercy given to him in Jesus. He feels he is wealthy, increased with goods, and has need of nothing, but he does not know that he is poor, naked and blind. He is a sinner, and will always be a sinner in God's sight standing in need of the imputed righteousness of Jesus.

The teaching of the reformation restores the true gospel. The acceptance of God of every man that accepts Jesus as His Saviour and believes in His word. That he is declared righteous because of his faith in his word, even though he will always be a sinner in this life.

There is an invisible church with Jesus as the head of the church. We can each individually know God and Jesus for ourselves and study the Bible for ourselves with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. We are not dependent on any church or man. We can have a daily walk with God by faith, even though we are sinners.


Salvation is free, it is the gift of God in Jesus. It is accepted only by faith in this life, not by faith and righeousness infused.

This is my belief and the teaching of the Reformation.

Rayna
Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Rayna;-)

Thank you for the answer.

My question is:

HAVE I EVER SAID ANY DIFFERENT?

If so, PLEEEEZZZE point it out and tell me which post!

Maryann
Rayna
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann, It is not my job to tell you what you believe. I only know what I believe and I feel honored to understand this truth.

I will continue to preach the gospel of righteousness by faith alone. Not the gospel of faith plus grace by the infusion of righteousness.
Like I said "grace" is the unmerited favor of God. It does not mean an infusion of righteousness in the believer. I do not know what you believe, but this is what I believe.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want, I am just witnessing to my belief.
Max
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann,

Don't let anyone lead you astray: Stick to your
belief that grace is the unmerited favor of God.
It does not mean an infusion of righteousness
in the believer.

Under real grace,

Max of the Cross
Patti
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 3:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Correct.
But I am very confused. Why do you, therefore, speak of "false grace," Max?
If grace is nothing but the unmerited favor of God toward sinful humanity, then it CANNOT be false nor counterfeited.
Max
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 4:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

NIV Matthew 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to
you; seek and you will find; knock and the door
will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives; he who
seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door
will be opened.
9 "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will
give him a stone?
10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a
snake?
11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how
to give good gifts to your children, how much
more will your Father in heaven give good gifts
to those who ask him!
12 So in everything, do to others what you
would have them do to you, for this sums up
the Law and the Prophets.
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is
the gate and broad is the road that leads to
destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road
that leads to life, and only a few find it.
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to
you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are
ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them.
Max
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

NIV Matthew 24:24 False Christs and false
prophets will appear and perform great signs
and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that
were possible.
Patti
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Notice it says:
if that were possible.

I do not believe that it is possible. Not because of what we are, but because of what Jesus has promised.

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
Max
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

False Christs teach false grace.
Maryann
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good Grief Guyz,

Anything can be counterfeited!!!

How many of you guyz were Seventh-Day-Adventist for how many years?!

We ALL swallowed a counterfeit gospel!!

We ALL swallowed a counterfeit grace!!!

GET REAL!!!

Why do you insist on attacking?

And on something as ridiculous as THAT?!

REALLY GET REAL!

Is that what "YOUR" gospel teaches you to do?

If that is what "your" gospel teaches you to do and I was an un-believer, I would RUN as quickly as I could from "your" gospel. It is just to closely related to a porcupine!

A Doctor could be the best surgeon in the world with years of experience yet ALL his experience would be flushed down the toilet by using a piece of barbed wire for a scalpel.

Proclaiming truth is awesome and wonderful thing and RESPONSIBILITY but when done with a barbed and attacking tongue it defeats the purpose of God.

I noticed that some months ago that Max and other's were under attack and what they were saying was horribly twisted to things they never said. Now, I notice that he (Max) is using scripture and is now being personally attacked!! What gives guyz! Have you no shame?

Since you are not willing to twist the scripture, you stoop to personal attacks! Why?

Are we still living under such a heavy cloud of criticism that we can't get out from under it.

Sure, we were ALL taught the "criticism thing" as SDA's. Growth in the Spirit SHOULD move us away from that familiar and warm friendly place!

You know, the WWJD attire that so many other Christians wear, (you know, many of the ones from the Sunday Churches that have had the gospel for a zillion years,) might be a good thing for all of us to wear too!!

Just seriously ask yourselves if you would really attack the way you have is Jesus was hanging out with us?

Hey, guess what, HE IS HANGING OUT WITH US!

Maryann
Maryann
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 1:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rayna, Rayna!,

You said:

"By Rayna on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:57 pm:

Maryann, It is not my job to tell you what you believe. I only know what I believe and I feel honored to understand this truth."

What in the world are you talking about???!

I said:

"By Maryann on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:18 am:

Hi Rayna;-)

Thank you for the answer.

My question is:

HAVE I EVER SAID ANY DIFFERENT?

If so, PLEEEEZZZE point it out and tell me which post!"

This is an excellent example of twisting what someone said!!!

I didn't ask you what I believed!! I simply asked you if I had said something different from your previous post!! And where I could find the post I'd said something different in!!!

You went on to say:

"I will continue to preach the gospel of righteousness by faith alone. Not the gospel of faith plus grace by the infusion of righteousness. Like I said "grace" is the unmerited favor of God. It does not mean an infusion of righteousness in the believer. I do not know what you believe, but this is what I believe."

The tone of this is that you think I or other's are proclaiming a "gospel of faith plus grace by the infusion of righteousness!"

Again!? Where do you find this?

Then you said:

"I do not know what you believe,"

If you don't know what I believe, you have NO BEEZ WAX ATTACKING ME FOR WHAT I SAY AS YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE!

Please correct me if I'm wrong in this statement. I have NEVER criticised you for proclaiming the gospel.

So that you know what I believe, it's simple.

My salvation was completed for me 2000 years ago with the life, blood, death, resurrection, ascention and sitting at the righthand of God. All that was done for the forgiveness of ALL my sins, past present and future. My job is to believe and receive that as the free gift that it is. I'm given the Holy Spirit to guide my life and hold my hand. With that Spirit comes the never ending task of learning to do His will resulting in a changed life. That changed life has absolutely NOTHING to do with the retaining of salvation!

I does have to do with me now being a child of God and the desire to be a more effective witness in word and deed.

Now you know what I believe;-)

I'd be more then happy to e-mail with you;-)

gogold@quixnet.net

Maryann
Max
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 3:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rayna, Patti, Maryann, Bill, ... , and any I may
have missed, God bless you all! It's been
sheer delight trading Scriptures with you!

Max of the Cross
Rayna
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 5:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sure, we are definitely not in agreement according to our belief of the gospel. But lets just continue to agree to disagree. If you all are happy with your belief, so be it. But I am sooooo happy with my belief. Happy Day Rayna
Max
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 5:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Rayna!
Terry
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rayna,
I think that you need to know that all of us here DO BELIEVE in Salvation by Grace, and Grace alone.
It appears that you have, somewhere along the way, misunderstood some of these posts.
Any other Gospel than this, is no Gospel at all. It is just a perversion...being bewitched, etc..
Terry
Lori
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of the things that we receive at the moment of our salvation IS: the imputation of Christ's righteousness. The believer shares the righteousness of Christ (2 Cor. 5:21) when by faith (through grace)we accept Him.

We also receive eternal life, sonship (1John 1:12), heirship (1 Pet. 1:4), royalty (Col. 1:13), priesthood (1 Pet. 2:4,9), election ((Eph. 1:4), destiny (Eph. 1:5) and sanctification (1 Cor. 1:2). These things are ours because: when we accept Christ we are placed in union with Him forever!!! They ARE part of the salvation package of "benefits".

Without these "benefits" we would still be separated from God. The essence of God-his righteousness and justice-had to be satisfied in order for us to have fellowship with Him.

In sin (prior to our acceptance of Christ) there are 6 things that separated us from God.


The Barriers and---the work of Christ that removed them:

1. Sin---------redemption and unlimited atonement
2. Penalty of sin--------------expiation
3. Physical Birth----------------regeneration
4. Relative righteousness------imputation and
justification
5. Character of God--------------propitiation
6. Position in Adam---------------position in
Christ

Our being placed in union with Christ is what satisfies the righteousness and justice of the Father.

True, we are saved by grace and grace alone, but at the same time we are imputed with Christ's righteous. I don't believe these things can be separated.

If you want scriptures for any of these things I'll provide them.
Max
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 8:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know if this is one of your texts, Lori, but
it does support your position:

NIV Hebrews 10:8 First he said, "Sacrifices
and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings
you did not desire, nor were you pleased with
them" (although the law required them to be
made).
9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do
your will." He sets aside the first to establish
the second.
10 And by that will, we have been made holy
through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus
Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and
performs his religious duties; again and again
he offers the same sacrifices, which can never
take away sins.
12 But when this priest had offered for all time
one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right
hand of God.
13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to
be made his footstool,
14 because by one sacrifice he has made
perfect forever those who are being made
holy.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about
this. First he says:
16 "This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws
in their hearts, and I will write them on their
minds."
17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless
acts I will remember no more."
18 And where these have been forgiven, there
is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

Blessings!
Colleentinker
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would love to see this discussion re: Protestantism and Catholic Doctrine just come to an end. It's beginning to sound like we're criticizing the Catholics, and that's not the purpose of our forum.

While it's certainly OK to talk about how we perceive things to be from our SDA backgrounds and through our new eyes of grace, it seems to me that we just divert our attention from what we're here for when we debate whether or not we've become Catholic.

Titus 2 warns us about not embroiling ourselves in arguments about the law. They do not profit us anything.

We are Christians saved by grace, and we are commissioned to love each other for God. Let's refocus on our Center!

Thank you, Jesus, for the people on this website and for your limitless love and grace to us all. Thank you for leading us to yourself, and thank you for promising to give us your mind and your words. We love you, and we are dedicated to letting you speak through us on this forum.

In Jesus' love,
Colleen
Max
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, Colleen. And furthermore, by
headlining, "Protestants Have Returned to the
Roman Catholic Doctrine of Justification,"
many Protestants surfing past this web site
may receive the impression that we are
criticizing them as well. And that isn't our
purpose either.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration