| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Okay, I attended a Bible study yesterday with two sda's. This subject came up as I questioned the 'Investigative Judgement' theory. I was told that Jesus entered the 'first compartment of the Heavenly Sanctuary' upon ascending. I pointed out that our Lord Jesus Christ went directly to the 'Right hand of the Father'. Then I was told that our Lord Jesus went through an innauguration lasting for 10 days (in the first compartment) and that this 10 day period lasted in our earthly years up until 1844. Then in 1844 (after a great celebration in the first compartment of the Heavenly Sanctuary), Jesus THEN went to the Holy of Holies. My question was, "Don't you agree that being right next to the Father would be the Most Holy Place that one could be?" They agreed that being next to the Father is the very Most Holy Place that one could be. So then I again pointed out Scripture of how Jesus went right to the right hand of God the Father. I went on to say that being right next to the Father IS the Holy of Holies. They disagreed pointing out to me that even David the Psalmist talked of the Sanctuary in Heaven and thus, the Sanctuary is located in one place while the Father can move anywhere He chooses in the Heavenlies. With this I was becoming a little upset as I kept asking for Scriptures to prove to me that first, the Sanctuary and God the Father can be in different locations, secondly, where in Scripture is this 10 day innauguration period that Jesus went through before entering the Holy of Holies, thirdly, How can they insist that the Sanctuary holds more soveriengty than God Almight Himself. The study, needless to say, became a debate as I held up the Word of God and they quoted egw and never opened their Bible. They insisted that while God is Soveirgn (sp), and that Jesus is said to have gone, according to Scripture, to the right hand of the Father, that still, the 'Sanctuary was where Jesus went and not directly to the Father. Sighhhh.... Anyhow, just thought I would share this and perhaps someone on this forum could show me where the 10 day period of innauguration is, in Scripture and also enlighten me as to how could someone believe that the Sanctuary is more Holy than God Himself? THIS is something that had me upset during the Bible study at the first then I was very calm and they were very upset. I know that arguing is not a good thing, but this was more of a stout disagreement with a voice raised here a little, there a little. However, it ended on a good note and next week is yet another study. God Bless all, Denise | ||
| Max |
Wow Denise! Like Daniel you went into the lion's den and God prevented them from destroying you! Hang on to that Bible of yours! | ||
| Patti |
and also enlighten me as to how could someone believe that the Sanctuary is more Holy than God Himself? Good question! I have asked that often. Just where in the universe is there a more holy place than the very presence of God Himself? Don't let them off the hook on that one! | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, I think you are a wonderful person! You have also posted some great studies and have asked and answered some great questions;-) I'm looking forward to the day....century....that we can see eye to eye on OTHER things!;-)) Maryann | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Max, Lion's den schmlions den...piece of cake...JOKING! Believe it or not, there were so many notes I had prepared to dispute this investigative judgement, and I forgot the notebook. Yes, I did and if my head weren't screwed on... Anyhow, I believe the Lord did walk into that den with me and alter our course. Rather than disputing (I should find another word perhaps) the investigative judgement, right from the first ten minutes it quickly turned to disputing (the word fits) the Soveriegnty of God vs the Soveriegnty of the Sanctuary. Oddly enough, I found myself shocked that they could put a place (the Sanctuary) above who created that place (God Almighty). Am I making sense? Its hard to explain other than you had to have been there. I'm terrible with the wording of what exactly transpired. Without my notes, completely unprepared and look how it turned out. The Lord is my Rock and my Strength, in that I have NOOO doubt. In the course of this debate, dispute, whatever word belongs on this sort of transaction, one of the sdas ended up, right in the middle of this heated dispute to say 'Jesus went right to the Father'. At which not only myself but the other sda looked at this one with surprise. Inside of me I knew that our Lord had control of this situation and that confirmed it beyond expression. Sola Scriptura is my reference. Don't leave home without it! :) Interesting that you compare this study or debate I had with Daniel. I named my cat Daniel because of something that happened to me in 1994. I've told two people. Maybe someday I'll share that. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Patti, Ah, not to worry, we have yet more studies to engage upon. It behooves all of us involved to continue in my opinion because of a change in one that I did see. It's good for me to have these as it forces me to study more and I learn a great deal about patience, lovingkindness, endurance, peacekeeping, forgiving and trials. In all these I'm not all that great in. Not to mention, it is my duty to proclaim Truth to the ones that will hear. Truth as I have learned thus far that is, as I am uneducated in these matters and am deplorable in organized thought process. The Lord is my Shield, my Fortress and my Hightower. Oh btw, thank you for the website you gave to me on the thread of the Holy Spirit. In His name, | ||
| Joni |
Denisegilmore, God bless you. I am reminded of the time that Jesus told the disciples not to worry about what they would say but that the Holy Spirit would give them the words at the needed time. (paraphrased) Keep reading the WORD and praying for HIS understanding only and the words and love will come. I just love it that God takes us as we are, forgives us for everything, and keeps us in HIS arms. Joni | ||
| Patti |
Denise wrote: Not to mention, it is my duty to proclaim Truth to the ones that will hear. Truth as I have learned thus far that is, as I am uneducated in these matters and am deplorable in organized thought process. Patti: Not that I believe that for a minute, (That is, your being uneducated and deplorable in organized thought process--evidence being that that was a heckuva sentence for an uneducated and disorganized mind!) but the Gospel is not a matter of education; it is a matter of revelation. And once it has been revealed to us, we must tell others; we cannot help it. And we are promised that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all Truth. I have found that the Bible becomes a very open and understandable book in the light of the Gospel. There are those who claim that we cannot truly understand Scripture unless we study Greek or Hebrew, or know how to do appropriate "exegesis," etc., but that is unscriptural. The Holy Spirit will lead us into all Truth; we have been promised. And it is evident that He is leading you. God bless you both in your study and in your testimony. Please keep us informed of your discoveries! (Isn't it exciting?) God bless! Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Max |
Denise, There is in Scripture no "10 day period of innauguration." Your Bible-study friends have even their SDA doctrine wrong. SDAs officially teach not a "10 day period" of time, but a "2300 day period" between the cross of Jesus and the throne of the Father. Here's the text at issue: ^^He [a holy one] said to me [Daniel], "It will take, 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.^^ --Daniel 8:14 NIV. "Evenings and mornings" is short for "evening sacrifices and morning sacrifices." Thus Daniel 8:14 refers to literal 24-hour days, not "a day for a year" as SDAs would have you believe. The problem that Daniel (exiled in Babylon) was facing was that the Jewish temple in Jerusalem had been desecrated by the pagan conqueror Antiochus Epiphanes who had sacrificed a pig on the altar as an "in your face" insult to the Jews he had subjugated. Daniel was comforted when in vision he saw that in 2,300 literal days the pig-desecrated sanctuary in the temple in Jerusalem would be "reconsecrated" and the proper sacrifices of bulls and goats (shadows pointing to Jesus) would be restored. Jews still celebrate the reconsecration of the temple in their Hanakkuh "festival of lights." That's a prophecy that was fulfilled a looong time ago! Not in 1844 as the SDAs have it. Frankly I have no idea where your Adventist friends got the 10-day period. Perhaps you could ask them and report back here to FAFF. As far as Jesus ascending into heaven and sitting down at the right hand of the Father is concerned, you are absolutely right and your Adventist friends are absolutely wrong. This SDA heresy is an embarrassment to even many SDA Bible scholars, but they're simply stuck with it. There's no going back for them, despite Des Ford and all his followers. I'll close with NIV Hebrews 10:11-18 NIV: 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest [Jesus Christ] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down [past tense] at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those [that's you, Denise, and me, and all] who are being made holy. 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: 16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." 17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." 18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. Ask your Adventist friends, "Where is the 'sacrifice for sin' between the period from 31 AD to 1844?" Blessings, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Oops Denise, I did a goof. I wrote that SDAs teach a ^^2300 day period between the cross of Jesus and the throne of the Father." That should have been a 2300 day period between the going forth in 457 BC of the command to restore the temple in heaven and the cleansing of the temple in heaven in 1844 AD. Don't worry if that doesn't make any sense to you. It doesn't make sense to 99.999% of Bible scholars either. | ||
| Max |
Another thing you can ask your SDA Bible study friends is to explain the time period of 1844 years between the time Jesus ascended into heaven and the time he supposedly went from Apartment One (Holy Place) into Apartment Two (Most Holy Place) in the temple in heaven. What is the reason for this time period? Where is its scriptural support to be found? And what do they do with the past tense of Hebrews 10:12 -- "He sat down [past tense] at the right hand of God"? And where was "the sacrifice for sin" of Hebrews 10:18 which says (NIV), "Where these [all people] have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin"? | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Joni, That Scripture you are talking about when we are PROMISED the Holy Spirit to give us what to say, is the very Scripture I couldn't help but think about. Especially when the study was finished and I was in my apartment going over in my mind what all had been said. I thank you for your encouragement as I need as much as I can get. There are times when I feel so inadequate to even agree to a study. But then, I read God's Word and voila! I'm ready to go, knowing that something good will come of it as I know the Lord Jesus said that He would never leave nor forsake us. In and of myself, I would really really mess things up! :) I thank our Lord Jesus our Messiah for guiding me with His Words. God Bless you Joni, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Patti, The Gospel is what I'm trying to expose to people. I've noticed that so many people are afraid of God and consequently they don't want to hear about Jesus Christ or anything about Him. This saddens me because it's such Good News! When it finally struck home with me, I can tell you that I still haven't settled down. The joy that this Good News brought to me is a joy everlasting. If only everybody knew huh? Isn't there a Scripture somewhere in Isaiah that talks about taking the unlearned and using them? I thought I had read something to that effect. Well, I am unlearned as far as the Bible is concerned but then again, how smart do I have to be to know what our Lord says? He gives us our understanding, our faith, our hope...He gives us our repentence. He is giving us absolutely everything! What a wonderful God we serve. God Bless you Patti, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Max, This will be in more than a single post as I'm unaware as to how to write one at length and keep it on the screen. I just lost a post to you..arrrghh! So, please bare with me on this. Okay, the first thing I'll address is the 10 day innauguration period: They do say that Jesus was crucified and resurrected. After his resurrection he walked on earth for 40 days revealing Himself to His disciples and many others. Then He ascended. So far I have nothing to dispute. However, upon His ascension, He went into the first compartment (Holy Place) and there was a great celebration in the Heavenlies. Not only this but that Jesus's innauguration was really His 'annointing' and that the entire Sanctuary was 'annointed'. Now, during this great celebration in the Heavenly Sanctuary, His disciples on earth were waiting as instructed. Also, while the claim is the Jesus entered the first compartment (Holy Place), that the Father was not in the Holy Place but in the Most Holy Place or second compartment of the Sanctuary. After the 'annointing', Jesus remained in the Holy Place acting as our Mediator or Intercessor until 1844. In 1844 He went into the Most Holy Place to be with the Father. Once He entered the Most Holy Place, He then became a Judge, hence the Investigative Judgement. The Scripture used for this is Revelation 11:18-19 and Dan 7-9 chapters. The Scripture used for the Mediator and Intercessor is in Leviticus. They are using the priests of the earthly Sanctuary as our example. End part 1 God Bless, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Part 2: Ammendment to part 1: I neglected to add that after this great event and celebration in the Heavenly Sanctuary for 10 days, then the Holy Spirit was poured upon what we refer to as Pentacost in the Book of Acts. That finalized Jesus's 'annointing'. Now comes your answer to the 'sin' question you had asked: They claim that Jesus did infact take upon Himself our sins when He hung on the cross. However, these same sins are not yet 'atoned' for until Satan is punished for them and cast into the lake of fire. Scripture given me was Leviticus 16:1- . Now they are claiming that the scapegoat used in the earthly Sanctuary represented satan. They claim that Jesus will come and take His saints to the Heavenlies while satan and his demons are left on earth for 1000 years. All people that were not saints will be destroyed by the brightness of Jesus's Second Coming. So satan will have 1000 years to look upon the dead bodies and contemplate his awfulness and the destruction he has caused. Also he will know that he only has 1000 years to go before being destroyed completely when Jesus (Michael the Archangel) and His Hosts along with the saints that have been in Heaven, come back to earth in the Great City they were in up in the Heavenlies. Also, the saints have been looking over the books of the dead to see why they were not translated and realize that God is Just. Now, if you read Leviticus 16, you will see that the scapegoat is not slaughtered. Instead, all of the sins of the Israelites were placed upon it's head and taken out of the gate. The Sda's claim that right now, our sins are still in the Sanctuary and will not be taken out of it until Satan, who to the sdas is the scapegoat, gets all our sins placed on him and then thrown into the lake of fire...our sins along with satan. I am really hoping that this is making some sense to you Max because I find when I read about the scapegoat in Leviticus, that the sins are placed on the goat but that the sins are then ATONED for. At least for that year (during Moses day). Now to me only Jesus can ATONE for our sins and has already atoned for them. I pointed out the Scriptures to the sdas that ATONEMENT was what Jesus did for us. Not satan. I see them placing our sins on satan. I avidly disagree. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
As a side note: I did a search for the word 'day'. The reason for my search was because Daniel 8:14 is used a 2300 years rather than days. My mind questioned this theory of a year for a day. It seemed to me that if the sdas are going to use that then they should use in in terms of creation week as well. In creation week we see, after each of the first 6 days that "There was evening and there was morning." Genesis 1:5 is the first day and this statement is used for all six days in creation week. The seventh day has no such terminology as far as I can see. In Daniel 8:14 we see the same thing, 'until 2300 evenings and mornings then...' So, not knowing how to put together creation week as 6 literal days if in Daniel 8:14 it is translated by sdas as years I needed to seek. The word I found in Hebrew is 'Rqb' transliterated 'Boqer'. This same Hebrew word is used in creation week and in Daniel 8:14. It means ONE DAY or 24 hour period. So those supposed 2300 years in Daniel are indeed 2300 evenings and mornings (2300 days). Unless of course I'm missing something. If so, please correct me, anybody feel free to correct me. Anyhow, I'm sorry to have posted so many posts tongight but it seemed necessitated for this instance. God Bless all, Denise | ||
| Max |
Dear Denise, I see that God has given a good handle on your situation with your two SDA Bible-study friends, and nobody is going to bamboozle you. Your posts were very interesting, and I'm glad you posted so many. I was especially interested in your statement, ^^The Scripture used for the Mediator and Intercessor is in Leviticus. They are using the priests of the earthly Sanctuary as our example.^^ You might ask them if they know that Scripture does not recognize Jesus Christ as one of "the priests of the earthly Sanctuary." Jesus was not of the lineage of Levi, father of the priestly tribe of Levitical priests. Instead he was of the royal lineage of David. So your friends are mistaken if they think that "the priests of the earthly sanctuary" prefigure Jesus Christ's ministry in the sanctuary in heaven. However, since Jesus IS prophet, priest and king, all three; he is, according to Hebrews, our high priest. But unlike the temporary Levitical priests, Jesus is a priest after the PERMANENT order of Melchizedek (Genesis 14:18, Psalm 110:4 and Hebrews 7:11) who NEVER functioned in the earthly sanctuary. Therefore, not all earthly sanctuary functions can be specifically applied to Jesus' ministry in the heavenly sanctuary, only those specifically mentioned in Hebrews. Just a thought from me.... Pillar of fire by night and cloud by day, Max of the Cross | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Well, I feel pretty silly right now. Here I was skimming through the 'to our adventists friends' topics, and what to my surprise is the very topic of the 'scapegoat'. All this time of reading on this forum and it was right there in front of me. Guess I need to read the titles eh? :) As to our topic at hand, I did use the very Scriptures they were using. One that really gets to me is this Melchizedec. I pointed out that He had no beginning of days nor ending of days, neither did He have a family history. I was told that that is how they wrote back then and it is not to be taken literally. That it's just a matter of speech or how they spoke then but that it does not mean what the Bible says it says. Was that confusing or what. I believe you understand what I'm trying to say. I'm awful at this typing out my thoughts. Anyhow, I thank you for your time with me on this and you can count on me asking some questions as my head is full of questions. It seems the more the Bible is opened up to me, the more questions I have on the doctrines taught to me. Let us all Praise His Mighty Name! God Bless, Denise | ||
| Patti |
Denise, I understand your confusion, but I think you can relax. The only Truth, the Truth by which all of the Scriptures must be judged and interpreted, is the salvific work of Jesus Christ. There are many many things in the Bible that are not unto salvation. And I think that one problem with many of the cults is that they do get bogged down in the details, majoring in minors, as it were. God does not call on us to explain every small detail of Scripture; but He does require that we believe on the One Who has perfectly worked out our salvation for us. In other words, no one either has all the biblical answers or is required to. All we need to know is that God saved us by the doing and dying of His Only Son, our Lord, Jesus Christ. God bless you in your study! Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Max |
Denise, Patti, Maryann, Joni, ... , and any I may have missed, God bless you all! It's been sheer delight trading Scriptures with you! Max of the Cross |
