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Darrell
Posted on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Recently a friend asked me to listen to a set of tapes by Doug Batchelor called "Advindication". In one of the tapes Doug talks about passages in the New Testament where the Sabbath is mentioned, including Col 2:16,17: "Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." Doug's point was that since the word in the original Greek is plural "sabbaths", it must refer to the feast days which are called "sabbaths" in the Old Testament. This didn't sound right to me, so I decided to check it out for myself.

In Col 2:16 the word in Greek (here transliterated) is "sabbatown", where I am using "ow" to represent the letter "omega" in Greek and to distinguish it from another spelling using "omicron". I think that this is the neuter plural form of the word. (Max, feel free to help me here.) Anyway, I searched for every instance of this word in the New Testament, and filtered out all the other spelling variations, which left me with the following list of texts:

Matt 28:1 "Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave."

Luke 4:16 "And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read."

Acts 13:14 "But going on from Perga, they arrived at Pisidian Antioch, and on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down."

Acts 16:13 "And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside, where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled."

In these verses it is clear that the texts are talking about events that happened on or after actual weekly Sabbath days. The next three texts use the same word, same spelling, but use the Jewish method of measuring the days of the week with reference to the Sabbath. So to say "first day of the week" it literally says "first of the Sabbaths":

Luke 24:1 "But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared."

John 20:1 "Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb."

Acts 20:7 "On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight."

These texts above show that the word used in Col 2:16 is commonly used in the New Testement to mean the weekly Sabbath day, and commentators who try to link the word to feast days or new moons are incorrect.

The last three texts bring up another question. Why do the writers, especially Luke who addresses his books to a Greek ("most excellent Theophilus"), use this Jewish method of measuring the week with regard to the Sabbath? Doesn't this imply that the gentile Christians were observing the weekly Sabbath? At a minimum it requires that they were familiar with the Sabbath. What do you think? Max? Colleen? Bruce? Anyone else? It is clear that how to keep the Sabbath was not an issue, because the New Testament is completely silent about it, and Paul says in Col 2:16 "Let noone judge you with regard to a Sabbath".
Chyna
Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 8:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

dear darrell. it's been shown in the Bible, many times that Sabbaths are always mentioned:

weekly,
monthly,
yearly

or

yearly
monthly
weekly

look at the John MacArthur page to substantiate that. so then, Colossians has to be referring to all the Sabbaths: festivals (yearly), new moon (monthly), Sabbath (weekly).

oy, my connection is so slow. anyway. my ex was like "you use that one verse to prove that Sabbath is no longer binding on Christians?" and I was like: "what about 'do not let anyone judge you according to what day you observe'?"

eh.

here's what John MacArthur has to say about Sabbath:

Is the Sabbath Binding on Christians Today?

by John MacArthur

It is believed that the Old Testament regulations governing Sabbath observances are ceremonial, not moral, aspects of the law. As such, they are no longer in force, but have passed away along with the sacrificial system, the Levitical priesthood, and all other aspects of Moses' law that prefigured Christ. Here are the reasons we hold this view.

1. In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul explicitly refers to the Sabbath as a shadow of Christ, which is no longer binding since the substance (Christ) has come. It is quite clear in those verses that the weekly Sabbath is in view. The phrase "a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day" refers to the annual, monthly, and weekly holy days of the Jewish calendar (cf. 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4; 31:3; Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:11). If Paul were referring to special ceremonial dates of rest in that passage, why would he have used the word "Sabbath?" He had already mentioned the ceremonial dates when he spoke of festivals and new moons.

2. The Sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.

3. The New Testament never commands Christians to observe the Sabbath.

4. In our only glimpse of an early church worship service in the New Testament, the church met on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).

5. Nowhere in the Old Testament are the Gentile nations commanded to observe the Sabbath or condemned for failing to do so. That is certainly strange if Sabbath observance were meant to be an eternal moral principle.

6. There is no evidence in the Bible of anyone keeping the Sabbath before the time of Moses, nor are there any commands in the Bible to keep the Sabbath before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai.

7. When the Apostles met at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), they did not impose Sabbath keeping on the Gentile believers.

8. The apostle Paul warned the Gentiles about many different sins in his epistles, but breaking the Sabbath was never one of them.

9. In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul rebukes the Galatians for thinking God expected them to observe special days (including the Sabbath).

10. In Romans 14:5, Paul forbids those who observe the Sabbath (these were no doubt Jewish believers) to condemn those who do not (Gentile believers).

11. The early church fathers, from Ignatius to Augustine, taught that the Old Testament Sabbath had been abolished and that the first day of the week (Sunday) was the day when Christians should meet for worship (contrary to the claim of many seventh-day sabbatarians who claim that Sunday worship was not instituted until the fourth century).

12. Sunday has not replaced Saturday as the Sabbath. Rather the Lord's Day is a time when believers gather to commemorate His resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week. Every day to the believer is one of Sabbath rest, since we have ceased from our spiritual labor and are resting in the salvation of the Lord (Hebrews 4:9-11).

So while we still follow the pattern of designating one day of the week a day for the Lord's people to gather in worship, we do not refer to this as "the Sabbath."

John Calvin took a similar position. He wrote, There were three reasons for giving this [fourth] commandment: First, with the seventh day of rest the Lord wished to give to the people of Israel an image of spiritual rest, whereby believers must cease from their own works in order to let the Lord work in them. Secondly, he wished that there be an established day in which believers might assemble in order to hear his Law and worship him. Thirdly, he willed that one day of rest be granted to servants and to those who live under the power of others so that they might have a relaxation from their labor. The latter, however, is rather an inferred than a principal reason.

As to the first reason, there is no doubt that it ceased in Christ; because he is the truth by the presence of which all images vanish. He is the reality at whose advent all shadows are abandoned. Hence St. Paul (Col. 2:17) affirms that the sabbath has been a shadow of a reality yet to be. And he declares else-where its truth when in the letter to the Romans, ch. 6:8, he teaches us that we are buried with Christ in order that by his death we may die to the corruption of our flesh. And this is not done in one day, but during all the course of our life, until altogether dead in our own selves, we may be filled with the life of God. Hence, superstitious observance of days must remain far from Christians.

The two last reasons, however, must not be numbered among the shadows of old. Rather, they are equally valid for all ages. Hence, though the sabbath is abrogated, it so happens among us that we still convene on certain days in order to hear the word of God, to break the [mystic] bread of the Supper, and to offer public prayers; and, moreover, in order that some relaxation from their toil be given to servants and workingmen. As our human weakness does not allow such assemblies to meet every day, the day observed by the Jews has been taken away (as a good device for eliminating superstition) and another day has been destined to this use. This was necessary for securing and maintaining order and peace in the Church.

As the truth therefore was given to the Jews under a figure, so to us on the contrary truth is shown without shadows in order, first of all, that we meditate all our life on a perpetual sabbath from our works so that the Lord may operate in us by his spirit; secondly, in order that we observe the legitimate order of the Church for listening to the word of God, for admin-istering the sacraments, and for public prayers; thirdly, in order that we do not oppress inhumanly with work those who are subject to us. [From Instruction in Faith, Calvin's own 1537 digest of the Institutes, sec. 8, "The Law of the Lord"].

For further study: D.A. Carson, ed., From Sabbath to Lord's Day (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1982).

love, Chyna
Darrell
Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna, we are in agreement about the sequence fetivals, new moons, and sabbaths or its reverse always referring to annual, monthly, and weekly events. I did not refer to this in my post because I was specificly addressing Batchelor's claim that the plural form "sabbaths" implied the seasonal feast days and not the weekly sabbath.

Unfortunately D.A. Carson's "From Sabbath to Lord's Day" is out of print now. Anyone want to sell or loan me a copy?

Noone has commented on my historical question: Does Luke's usage of the word sabbath in measuring the days of the week when writing to Greeks suggest that the gentile Christians were observing the sabbath? Additionally, what other historical evidence is there regarding the first century? I am aware of some of the writings of the "Church Fathers" dating from the second century, but what about the first century?
Ken
Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 7:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Howdy Chyna:

Chyna: There is no evidence in the Bible of
anyone keeping the Sabbath before the time
of Moses, nor are there any commands in the
Bible to keep the Sabbath before the giving of
the law at Mt. Sinai.

Ken: So sorry, on the contrary. What about the
following texts:

I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children
walking in truth, as we have received a
commandment from the father.
And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I
wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that
which we had from the beginning, that we love
one another.
And this is love, that we walk after his
commandments, That, as ye have heard from
the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2 John 4-6

Following in Jesus's footsteps
Ken
Ken
Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 7:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Chyna:

Chyna: Sunday has not replaced Saturday as
the Sabbath. Rather the Lord's Day is a time
when believers gather to commemorate His
resurrection, which occurred on the first day of
the week.

Come on Chyna, you have indeed replaced
Sabbath with sunday.

Why would the "Lord's day" become a weekly
celebration?

Why would we not celebrate Christ's birth
weekly instead of once a year?...makes zero
sense to me!

Following Jesus's footsteps
Ken
Ken
Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Darrell:

To get a dissected study on the often
mis-understood Col. 2:14-16 I highly
recommend you shoot over to David Conklins'
site on this.

http://www.biblestudy.iwarp.com

Following Jesus's footsteps
Ken
Max
Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Greetings Darrell,

Iíve done a word search in Lukeís writings of
the word ìSabbathî to see if there is any
mention of whether or not it was ever
preached to the Gentiles. Conclusion: No.
Hereís the evidence:

Luke 4:16ÝHe went to Nazareth, where he had
been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he
went into the synagogue, as was his custom.
And he stood up to read. *Comment* Gentiles
not involved.

Luke 4:31ÝThen he went down to Capernaum,
a town in Galilee, and on the Sabbath began
to teach the people. *Comment* Gentiles not
involved.


Luke 6:1ÝOne Sabbath Jesus was going
through the grainfields, and his disciples
began to pick some heads of grain, rub them
in their hands and eat the kernels.
*Comment* Gentiles not involved.

Luke 6:2ÝSome of the Pharisees asked, "Why
are you doing what is unlawful on the
Sabbath?" *Comment* Gentiles not involved.

Luke 6:5ÝThen Jesus said to them, "The Son
of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." *Comment*
Gentiles not involved.

Luke 6:6ÝOn another Sabbath he went into the
synagogue and was teaching, and a man was
there whose right hand was shriveled.
*Comment* Gentiles not involved.

Luke 6:7ÝThe Pharisees and the teachers of
the law were looking for a reason to accuse
Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if
he would heal on the Sabbath. *Comment*
Gentiles not involved.

Luke 6:9ÝThen Jesus said to them, "I ask you,
which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or
to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?"
*Comment* Gentiles not involved.

Luke 13:10ÝOn a Sabbath Jesus was teaching
in one of the synagogues, *Comment*
Gentiles not involved.

Luke 13:14ÝIndignant because Jesus had
healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue ruler
said to the people, "There are six days for
work. So come and be healed on those days,
not on the Sabbath." *Comment* Gentiles not
involved.

Luke 13:15ÝThe Lord answered him, "You
hypocrites! Doesn't each of you on the
Sabbath untie his ox or donkey from the stall
and lead it out to give it water? *Comment*
Gentiles not involved.

Luke 13:16ÝThen should not this woman, a
daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept
bound for eighteen long years, be set free on
the Sabbath day from what bound her?"
*Comment* Gentiles not involved.

Luke 14:1ÝOne Sabbath, when Jesus went to
eat in the house of a prominent Pharisee, he
was being carefully watched. *Comment*
Gentiles not involved.

Luke 14:3ÝJesus asked the Pharisees and
experts in the law, "Is it lawful to heal on the
Sabbath or not?" *Comment* Gentiles not
involved.

Luke 14:5ÝThen he asked them, "If one of you
has a son or an ox that falls into a well on the
Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull him
out?" *Comment* Gentiles not involved.

Luke 23:54ÝIt was Preparation Day, and the
Sabbath was about to begin. *Comment*
Gentiles not involved.

Luke 23:56ÝThen they went home and
prepared spices and perfumes. But they
rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the
commandment. *Comment* Gentiles not
involved. Nor is this a New Testament
commandment to rest on the Sabbath. It is
only a New Testament reference to an Old
Testament commandment which Paul gives
Christian the option of keeping (Romans 14).

Acts 1:12ÝThen they returned to Jerusalem
from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a
Sabbath day's walk from the city. *Comment*
Gentiles not involved.

Acts 13:14ÝFrom Perga they went on to
Pisidian Antioch. On the Sabbath they entered
the synagogue and sat down. *Comment*
Paul and his companions were preaching the
gospel -- not the Sabbath -- to the scattered
Jews (diaspora) in their synagogue. No doubt
there were ìGod-fearingî Gentiles in the
audience (Acts 13:26), but there is no
evidence Paul preached Sabbath observance
(or circumcision or tithing or a kosher diet) to
them. And there would be no reason to preach
these things to the observant Jews there.

Acts 13:27ÝThe people of Jerusalem and their
rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in
condemning him they fulfilled the words of the
prophets that are read every Sabbath.
*Comment* Good record of Paul preaching
the gospel to the ìGod-fearingî Gentiles there,
but no record that he preached
Sabbath-keeping.

Acts 13:42ÝAs Paul and Barnabas were
leaving the synagogue, the people invited
them to speak further about these things on
the next Sabbath. *Comment* Same as
above.

Acts 13:44ÝOn the next Sabbath almost the
whole city gathered to hear the word of the
Lord. *Comment* Same as above.

Acts 15:21ÝFor Moses has been preached in
every city from the earliest times and is read in
the synagogues on every Sabbath."
*Comment* This occurred at the Jerusalem
counsel over whether or not Jewish laws
(Sabbath observance, circumcision tithing,
kosher diet, and all the other laws of Moses)
should be preached to Gentiles. Ruling: No:
only the laws of Noah which did not include
Sabbath-keeping were to be required of
Gentile Christians.

Acts 16:13ÝOn the Sabbath we went outside
the city gate to the river, where we expected to
find a place of prayer. We sat down and began
to speak to the women who had gathered
there. *Comment* No record that the Sabbath
was preached or taught or even mentioned in
discourse.

Acts 17:2ÝAs his custom was, Paul went into
the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he
reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
*Comment* What Paul preached on these
days is clearly explained -- the gospel. No
record that the Sabbath ever was.

Acts 18:4ÝEvery Sabbath he reasoned in the
synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and
Greeks. *Comment* Same as previous.

Max of the Cross
Max
Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 10:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Darrell,

I have to confess that my "tools" (Greek
lexicon, etc.) are still packed do to my recent
move. Also, my Greek is rusty, though not so
much that I can't use an interlinear. So I'm
afraid I'm not going to be much help to you at
this point, at least as as far as Greek word
studies, grammar, etc., are concerned.

I can say, though, that in Bacchiocchi's book
FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY (my copy of
which is also packed), which is based on his
Ph.D. dissertation -- AGREES with you and
DISAGREES with Doug Batchelor. So you get
an A, for at least Bacchiocchi is a scholar,
whereas Batchelor isn't. And besides he could
never have gotten his Ph.D. if he had included
what Batchelor and the SDA Commentary say
in his dissertation. Nearly everyone in
SDA-employed scholarly circles knows this,
but you'd be hard pressed to get one of them
to admit it except behind closed doors with
those of like mind.

What Bacchiocchi agrees with is your
interpretation of the plural Greek word for
"Sabbaths." Bacchiocchi ends out disagreeing
with his own denomination, including the SDA
Bible Commentary, and saying that "a
Sabbath day" Colossians 2:16 DOES refer to
the weekly Sabbath day and not to the monthly
or annual Sabbath festivals.

Besides a Batchelorian interpretation would
be redundant: "Do not let anyone judge you ...
with regard to a yearly Sabbath, a New Moon
celebreation or a yearly Sabbath." No, friend
Batchelor, Paul had NOT lost his marbles!

I've heard that Bacchiocchi has been severely
criticized by his conservative SDA brethren in
the hierarchy. But it is unreasonable to expect
that he would have ever received a Ph.D. with
Batchelor's dumb-dumb interpretation in his
dissertation.

I don't know how much help that was, but the
NIV translation derives from truly excellent
scholarship (Colossians 2:16-18):

"Therefore do not anyone judge you
[Colossian Christians were 99.999% Gentile
who were being harrassed by
Sabbath-requiring "SDAs" from Jerusalem] by
what you eat [ham, pork chops, lobster tail,
clam chowder] or drink [maybe wine that was
not prepared in the kosher fashion], a New
Moon celebration or A SABBATH DAY. These
are a SHADOW of the things that were to
come; the REALITY, however is found in
Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false
humility and the worship of angels [Michael =
Christ?] disqualify you for the prize. Such a
person [EGW?] goes into great detail about
what he [she] has seen, and his [her]
unspiritual mind puffs him [her] up with idle
notions."

Be of good cheer,

Max
Maryann
Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Ken,

How have you been? Good to hear from you!

I don't think you have answered my last question from a few weeks ago.

Who is Jesus?

If I was a hermit from the mountains and never even heard the name of Jesus, how would you describe Him to me?

Looking forward to your answer;-))

Your sis..........Maryann
Max
Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 10:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darrell again,

There were Sabbath-keeping Gentiles, no
question. But they were already keeping the
Sabbath by virtue of their attendance with the
Jews in synagogue on the seventh day.

Thus it is obvious that Peter, Paul and the
other apostles would not have preached
Sabbath keeping to them. What would have
been the point?

Nor does the New Testament ever say
anywhere that the apostles ever preached the
Sabbath to ANY kind of Gentile, ìGod-fearingî
or not.

Hereís the evidence from a word search of
"God-fearing" in the New Testament.

Acts 2:5ÝNow there were staying in Jerusalem
God-fearing Jews from every nation under
heaven. **comment** These were "scatteredî
Jews (diaspora) who were ìGod-fearingî or
observant as opposed to those who werenít.
These were not Gentiles.

Acts 10:2ÝHe and all his family were devout
and God-fearing; he gave generously to those
in need and prayed to God regularly.
**comment** This man was Cornelius a
Roman centurion of the Italian Regiment. So
here is a Gentile who probably did keep the
Sabbath -- but only because he had been
keeping it already in a Jewish synagogue -- for
he was ìrespected by all the Jewish peopleî
(v. 22). It would have been redundant for any
Jewish Christian believer, such as Peter, to
preach the Sabbath to a man who was already
keeping the Sabbath. The gospel was the
ìscandalî that was being preached, not the
Sabbath.

Acts 10:22ÝThe men replied, "We have come
from Cornelius the centurion. He is a
righteous and God-fearing man, who is
respected by all the Jewish people. A holy
angel told him to have you come to his house
so that he could hear what you have to say."
**comment** As above, the gospel what what
Cornelius had come to hear, not the Sabbath
teaching.

Acts 13:26Ý"Brothers, children of Abraham,
and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that
this message of salvation has been sent.
**comment** Again, it was the gospel that
was being preached to these
already-Sabbath-keeping Gentiles, not the
Sabbath.

Acts 13:50ÝBut the Jews incited the
God-fearing women of high standing(probably
Sabbath-keeping Gentiles) and the leading
men of the city. They stirred up persecution
against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled
them from their region. **comment** Same as
above.

Acts 17:4ÝSome of the Jews were persuaded
and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large
number of God-fearing Greeks and not a few
prominent women. **comment** Obviously
Gentile Sabbath-keepers. Same comment as
above.

Acts 17:17ÝSo he reasoned in the synagogue
with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as
well as in the marketplace day by day with
those who happened to be there.
**comment** Same as above.

Be of good cheer!
Ken
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2000 - 8:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Max:

Why would they preach the Sabbath? They were living
the Sabbath! Gentiles we're meeting together with the
jews in synagogues on the Sabbath there was no
problem with the Sabbath/meeting on the Sabbath
back then. It wasen't an issue...

Ken
Darrell
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2000 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max, thanks for your response, but what I was asking about are the two cases where Luke uses the phrase which literally says "first of (after) the sabbath" to mean "first day of the week" (Luke 24:1 and Acts 20:7). The verses you gave in your word study are talking about the sabbath directly, not about some other day of the week.
Max
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2000 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Ken,

It's GREAT to have you back! Welcome! I'm
praying for you, despite your ideas, because I
really do like you and appreciate your spunk.

Blessings!

Max of the Cross
Max
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2000 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Darrell,

I guess I'll have to wait till I find my Greek
lexicon. You're probably better off asking
someone a Greek scholar. I only have a
smattering.
Maryann
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2000 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Ken;-)),

I'm still waiting to know who Jesus is. Remember, I have never heard His name before and you are the only person that can tell me who this Jesus is.

If you don't hurry, I may die never knowing!!

Maryann
Bruceh
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2000 - 7:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Marryann

You have a good question for Ken.

Bruce Heinrich

How many times does Ken mention jesus and how many
times does he mention the SABBATH. Anybody for a
word search.
Max
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2000 - 8:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Ken again,

Yes, you're absolutely correct: ^^Gentiles we're
meeting together with the Jews in
synagogues on the Sabbath; there was no
problem with the Sabbath/meeting on the
Sabbath back then. It wasen't an issue... ^^

Some Gentiles. Exceedingly few. Perhaps not
more than one in 10,000 or even 100,000 of
the populations of these Gentile port and
trading cities of the Roman empire. The New
Testament calls them "God fearers." It also
calls them "unbelievers."

Paul preached to them -- and the Jews who
were worshiping with them in synagogue --
first. When these "God fearers," these
"unbelievers," in the main rejected the gospel,
Paul then preached to the Gentiles who were
not "God fearers," though they were still
"unbelievers."

No record Paul every preached the Sabbath to
them!

So when they became believers, "there was
no problem with the Sabbath/meeting on the
Sabbath back then. It wasen't an issue...."

And so they never did start keeping the
Sabbath!

When the "SDA Jews" who came from
Jerusalem tried to preach Sabbath-keeping
(and circumcision, tithe-paying,
pork-shunning, etc., to them), Paul resisted
fiercely. It became an issue in the early
church. The first church council was held in
Jerusalem, James presiding.

The issue: Did the Gentile Christians have to
start circumcising, Sabbath-keeping,
tithe-paying, pork-shunning, etc. -- in other
words, the Law of Moses?

Decision rendered by James: No. They only
had to keep the Law of Noah.

There's more, but this is enough for now.

Jesus Christ's Commandments have
replaced the Ten Commandments!

Glad you're back aboard.

Be of good cheer!

Max of the Cross
Jtree
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 7:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Our FRIENDS are always dwelling upon the terrible scenes at Sinai at the giving of the law and pointing others there; but Paul says, No, do not
go there; but to Mount Sion, to Jesus and the new covenant.

So Jeremiah predicted the rejection of the covenant in the ark and that instead of it, men would seek to the name of the Lord at Jerusalem
where the gospel went forth.

"In those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, the ark of the, covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind; neither shall
they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord;
and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem." Jer. 3:16,17.

Our FRIENDS are trying to revive the very thing the Lord said should be forgotten, "the ark of the covenant." All their study and worship is
centered around that just as of old with the Jews. But the effort is vain. God has said it. Since the cross Jesus and Jerusalem have been where all
eyes have turned while the ark and old covenant are forgotten, just as the Lord said it would be.

Isa. 2:3; "Out of Zion shall go forth the law
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." There is where we now go for the law, not to the ark or to Sinai.
Patti
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 12:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jesus Christ's Commandments have
replaced the Ten Commandments!


Actually, grace has replaced all law. Jesus fulfilled ALL of the law perfectly. He is our full and complete salvation. When we are in Him, we have fulfilled all of the law perfectly; we lack nothing.
Patti
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now I am going to contradict myself. Grace did not replace the law. Righteousness by faith alone was in place long before the law was. The law was added because of disobedience, to make people aware of exactly how sinful they are and how much they need the grace of God. One text that I was amazed at the other day when doing the study on Hebrews:

1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.
3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins,

It was God's intention that people be constantly aware of their sinfulness, their great need for grace. It is the same today. The law constantly points out to us our great lack of righteousness. The "commandments of Jesus" only heighten that awareness of how hopelessly sinful we are. His commandments are not easier to keep; they are more difficult. The entire sermon on the mount, as Dan pointed out, is an overdose of law, pushing, urging, prodding our consciences, ever reminding us of how dependent we are upon the mercy of our Lord and Savior.

Praise be to God that we can truly rest in the knowledge that Jesus Christ has accomplished all that is necessary for our full salvation!

Grace and peace,
Patti

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