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Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 1 » Protestants Have Returned to the Roman Catholic Doctrine of Justification » Archive through October 26, 2000 « Previous Next »

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Rayna
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 5:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am just proclaiming the gospel of the imputed righteousness of Jesus. You know there is a "Historical Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification" between the Lutherans and the RCC. They state that "They are now able to ARTICULATE a common UNDERSTADING of our justification by God's grace thru faith in Christ." You know this can never be. The Reformation was the downfall of the RCC and the true gospel was preached. Today by the teaching of "grace" this declaration is attempting to return to the RCC doctrine of grace. Grace does not mean infusion of righteousnes in the beliver by the Holy Spirit. We will always be sinners in this life, whether we commit known sin or not.

The Reformation restored the all sufficiency of the imputed righeousness of Christ and honored Christ. It also lowered man by stating he was a depraved sinner and could only trust in the merits of Jesus mediated for Him in heaven to be declared righteous. We will always be sinners.

Never will these two doctrines be united. The Reformation doctrine of Justification by faith alone in the imputed righteousness of Jesus by the grace of God, for the sinner before God cannot be combined with man becoming righteous before God by the Holy Spirit in his life. I know this is the RCC teaching. We are the publican, not the Pharisee. We are all sinners and must rely on the imputed righteousness of Jesus because of the great mercy of God and being made righteous before God, as our faith in God's word is counted for righteousness. And yes, the imputed righteousness of Christ does cover our sins now and forever. This is Biblical. If this is not true, we will stand alone before God in our sinfulness. WE WILL ALWAYS BE SINNERS AS WE HAVE A SINFUL NATURE. Our sinful nature will not be removed in this lifetime. The Holy Spirit enables us to see the true gospel, which in turn enables us to resist the evil nature, but it does not destroy it. We are stuck with it throughout our lifetime, and it pollutes all the good that we do. We all fall short, our works are polluted without the nonimputation of our sinfulness before God.

I DO BELIEVE IN WITNESSING FOR THE GOSPEL, HELPING OTHERS AND LIVING A GODLY LIFE, BUT THIS IS STILL POLLUTED IN GOD'S SIGHT BECAUSE OF OUR SINFUL NATURE. WE MUST TRUST ONLY IN THE IMPUTED RIGHTOUSNESS OF JESUS FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION BEFORE GOD.
Rayna
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 6:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I think I have witnessed to the true gospel on this site enough. Nothing more can be said, than what I have already said. We do disagree, and never the twain shall meet. I respect your right to your belief, so I will move on and one day open my own site and teach the true gospel. It does not bother me about any criticism toward me, as we must expect this, as this is what happened to Jesus and the disciples, and the Reformers. It will happen again. We need to feel honored that we can be persecuted and our words misrepresented for the sake of Jesus. He suffered for me, and whatever I have to bear is nothing. I will always choose to follow Him, with His help, and continue to proclaim the Reformation truth of the gospel.

I shall leave you now, so that you will not be disturbed by the true Reformation gospel.

Praying for you, Rayna
Max
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And may the peace that passeth
understanding go with you and your spirit,
Rayna. For I am certain that God is in full
control of this situation.

In God's love for you,

Max
Patti
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen wrote:
I would love to see this discussion re: Protestantism and Catholic Doctrine just come to an end.

Colleen,
I read your words above with sadness, because they, in effect, bring to a close any discussion of Reformational theology. The crux of Reformational theology is the Gospel. So this brings an end to discussion of the Gospel as presented by the reformers.

There is no one here who has said a word in criticism of individual Catholics, just their errant theology.

It's beginning to sound like we're criticizing the Catholics, and that's not the purpose of our forum.

I know. It is to criticize SDAism. BTW, this is an interesting response I read on another forum from a former-SDA-turned-Catholic:

"As Page always enjoy pointing out, there is not much difference between Catholicism and SDAism." (Marsha A. Adams)

Since you have drawn the lines that we cannot discuss Reformational theology, and the differences between the RCC gospel and the Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ by grace through faith alone, then my freedom for us who left SDAism for the Gospel and to discuss it is severely curtailed. I don't think this is what you intended for this forum, but that is what it has come to. And I am greatly saddened by it.

May God bless you and this forum, may people never rest until they rest (totally) in the perfect and singular work of Jesus Christ alone,
With love,
Patti
Lori
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rayna,

I agree with you......we ARE still sinners even though we are covered with Christ's righteousness, if we were not still sinners after salvation then their would be no mandates for the believer to confess sins. Why would we need to confess sins if we were sinless?

As for becoming righteousness, you are also correct, "no one is righteous, no, not one". "if we claim to be without sin, then we are deceived and the truth is not in us" 1 John 1, (I think it's verse 12)

As believers we are given freedom---Freedom is having the Holy Spirit control our lives. Prior to salvation we had no other choice but to be controlled by the sin nature. But after salvation--"Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Freedom" The times of our life when we are controlled by the Holy Spirit are the times that we are without sin, but we do sin and we do choose the sin nature over the Holy Spirit and that is when we are told to confess, so the Holy Spirit can control our lives and make us useful in God's plan. At the same time, we have all the benefits of our positive volition toward God, peace and love for others.

We are told to love our fellow believers---some of them are very unlovable, especially when they think they know it all. (My pastor refers to these as the 'adolescent believer'-they know a little so they think they know a lot--they are arrogant and unteachable and totally useless to God, even though they are believers, and they make life totally miserable for other believers, but nonetheless, we are told to love them, that means being tolerant and patient AND hoping they will grow out of it soon!!) The "baby" believer and the "Mature" believer are both teachable and anxious to learn. Unfortunately, most Christians never make it through the adolescent age, they get stuck there, off on some system of "good works" that they deem necessary for salvation (such as legalism, etc.) We all need to remember that every one is not in the same place in their "walk" with God and we need to be tolerant. Just as we are all different physical ages, so we are different spiritual ages. I've been stuck in the adolescent stage for what seems forever "knowing a little and thinking I knew it all", I was unteachable as an Adventist--I was in moral-carnality. It wasn't until I became teachable and was willing to set aside "what I thought" that I've been able to step forward in my walk with God. I don't know if I've reached some form of maturity, yet, I'm confident I can if I stay teachable!!! I know that I have found a love for God and an growing amazement that "someone so big and powerful as HE" can care about a speck in the Universe called planet Earth. And then, he even cares about a tiny piece of dirt that lives on that speck, ME. That amazes me to consider the smallness of what our planet is, in comparison to the entire universe, and then to consider what God did to restore us to Him.

Conclusion: We are sinners, past, present and future. Jesus Christ invites us to take him up on his offer to represent us, to stand in our place. If we accept we are still sinners, however, on the day of judgement our "attorney-Jesus Christ" will stand in our place. Satan can throw all the objections he wants, but the perfect righteousness of Christ is sufficient for all that choose Him to represent them as their "attorney" on the judgement day.

Unbelievers will chose to represent themselves on the basis of their good works. Their good works, however, will add up to MINUS righteousness.

We are never without sin, remember these verses? ---"let he who is without sin cast the first stone", "if we claim we are without sin, we are deceived and the truth is not in us", "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"
Max
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good afternoon Lori,

Can a person delink or separate the
righteousness of Christ from the sinlessness
of Christ?

Especially when Scripture does not delink or
separate them?

"The law ... can never ... make perfect [sinless]
those who ... worship." Hebrews 10:1.

But,

"By one sacrifice he [Christ] has made perfect
[sinless] forever those who are being made
holy." Hebrews 10:14.

Now does one not deny Christ and his
sacrifice if s/he denies the truth of these two
Scriptures?

How can one say s/he is righteous by faith
alone but not sinless [perfect] by faith alone?

How can one claim the righteousness of
Christ by faith alone but not the sinlessness of
Christ by faith alone?

The righteousness of Christ = the perfection of
Christ = the sinlessness of Christ,
inseparable forever.

And it is the whole package -- righteousness /
perfection / sinlessness -- all of Christ alone
by my faith alone that I believe.

For, by one sacrifice Christ has made sinless
forever those who are being made holy.

This grace is real and pure and not entangled
with my own sinfullness / imperfection /
unrighteousness.

Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to the cross
I cling.

If I claim the righteousness of Christ by faith
alone, but not the sinlessness of Christ by
faith alone, then I am missing out on the
fullness of God's grace alone.

In God's love for you,

Max
Patti
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Lori.
I needed that.
I would have thanked you privately, but I do not have your email address.

Grace and peace,
Patti
Richardjr
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti, I have found your insights of immense value. I hope you are not discouraged. Please keep posting. The Protestant Reformation altered history forever. There is no turning back. Richardjr
Patti
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Richard.
It seems, though, that this discussion is unwelcome here.
Max
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Richard,

I agree that there is no going back to Roman
Catholic theology. Can you prove from
Scripture alone that Protestants have returned
to the Roman Catholic doctrine of
justification?
Richardjr
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max, No, I can't prove from Scropture alone that Protestants have returned to the RC doc. of J by F. It is my observation that some individual Protestants have returned to that doctrine. Richardjr
Richardjr
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max, No, I can't prove from Scropture alone that Protestants have returned to the RC doc. of J by F. It is my observation that some individual Protestants have returned to that doctrine. Richardjr
Patti
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is a trick question, anyway. One cannot prove from Scripture something that has happened since the close of the Canon!

But I do not believe that it was asked by one who is really seeking an answer.
Max
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Absolutely.
Max
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Previous post in response to Richardjr.
Richardjr
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is also my observation that some Protestant scholars and some Roman Catholic scholars got together recently where they signed a joint declararion on J by F. In that declaration it was the Protestant scholars who made concessions to the RC's. That troubled me to some degree.
Patti
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 5:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,
R. C. Sproul describes this in his book, "Faith Alone," available in paperback from Amazon.com. If they have come to a common understanding, it is not because the RCC gave any ground. Who, therefore, is the one who capitulated?

Write me at my email address if you wish to discuss this further.
Max
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,

Any compromize by Protestant scholars of the
Reformation recovered Scriptural truth of
"justification by faith alone" is of course
troubling and unacceptable.
Richardtinker
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After reading this forum for the last several weeks, it seems to me that both "sides" of this discussion agree that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone by Christ alone.

The disagreement seems to be not about salvation but about what happens AFTER salvation.

We all agree that when we believe, we receive the Holy Spirit. The Bible also says that under the New Covenant God puts his laws in his people's hearts and minds.

"No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest." (Hebrews 8:11)

I think we need to trust the Holy Spirit to lead all of us to the truth about what happens after salvation. We don't need to try to convince each other that our lives will be changed or that they won't be.

The Holy Spirit will take care of those details with each of us personally as we trust Him.
Colleentinker
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just want to be clear that I have no disagreements with Reformation theology. I'm only objecting to the feelings of defensiveness I sense in the volleys of posts on this thread.

I know that truth puts a sword between believers and unbelievers, but when believers start parrying thrusts, something has gone wrong.

I value the insights of every person who posts here. I come back to the prayer of Jesus in John 17:20-23: "I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

I'm not asking anyone to change their understanding. I'm not asking that we pretend to agree with each other if we don't. I'm only asking that we respect each other's commitment to Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit to deal with each other and to continue to draw each of us to truth.

Whether or not we believe we can expect changes in our lives after being saved, none of us has room to be arrogant about our understanding of salvation. We are each the product of a miracle. We are all like the lepers Jesus healed. Our only appropriate responses are gratitude, humility and patience, and prayer for one another.

Praising God for saving us from ourselves,
Colleen

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