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Cindy
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Ken, Hi! Glad you are conversing with us! You seem to have a kind spirit even though I think I disagree with your "gospel".... Never-the-less we need each other and to God we are ALL precious!

Anyway, could you explain further what you mean by:

"Accepting Christ's sacrifice is only the first step in God's plan for bringing humans into
His divine Family".

What is the next step?

Using some of your words, I would maintain that
"Accepting Christ's sacrifice" means accepting His PERFECT LIFE and DEATH and RESURRECTION in my place....,FOR ME!

And there is a Finality! and Completeness! in the message of the Cross!...

Here, at the Cross, in Jesus's WORK! we can finally REST...This Gospel good news! IS God's perfect "plan for bringing humans into His divine Family"!!

Grace always,
Cindy
Max
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good buddy Ken,

Ken: ^^MOST of modern Christianity teaches
that there is nothing more for us to do but
believe in Christ's sacrifice for our sins.^^

Can't speak for most of Christianity, but my
beliefs spring from Scripture alone. And Christ
said, Since you, Max, love me, keep MY
(Christ's) commandments, not the Ten
Commandments!

Ken: ^^No wonder He is portrayed as a dead
Savior hanging on a cross! Christ's death,
pictured by the Passover, was necessary to
pay the penalty of our past sins--to reconcile
us to the Father.^^

Past only? Scripture alone: "[Christ] has
appeared ONCE FOR ALL [time and people]
at the end of the ages [AD 31, not AD 1844] to
do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself."

It was necessary to pay the penalty of our
PRESENT AND FUTURE sins to reconcile us
to the Father and to Himself, for he is one with
the Father and even bears the Father's name
(Isaiah 9:6).

Ken: ^^But His death alone will not save us!
Think, for a moment, if Jesus Christ had died
but not been resurrected. Would His death
alone make eternal life possible?^^

You speak of an impossible hypothetical
case: For Scripture says (NIV John10:17-18):

"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay
down my life--only to take it up again. No one
takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own
accord. I have authority to lay it down and
authority to take it up again. This command I
received from my Father."

Ken: ^^Accepting Christ's sacrifice is only the
first step in God's plan for bringing humans
into His divine Family.^^

This assertion would be scriptural if the
wording were changed only very slightly to
read....

Accepting Christ's sacrifice is the ONLY step
in God's plan for bringing humans into His
divine family, "because by one sacrifice he
has MADE PERFECT FOREVER those [you
and me, Ken] who are being made holy."
Hebrews 10:14.

Accept it, Ken, it's Scripture.

And an abundance of blessings be upon you!

Max of the Cross
Cindy
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max....that was great! (Changing the place of the word ONLY and eliminating the wording and mindset of a "first" step... which implies going on to greater, more complete "steps" into God's family).

CHRIST HAS ACCOMPLISHED ALL THAT WE NEED IN RECONCILING US TO GOD!

Grace always,
Cindy
Ken
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More fun for Max:

>>There are two dangers on opposite ends of
the spiritual spectrum that Christians have
had to try and avoid from the first century until
now.

Those two dangers or pitfalls are sometimes
referred to as legalism and antinomianism (a
large word I will explain momentarily).

Legalism is also known as works
righteousness, rule keeping or brownie point
religion, working your way to heaven, trying to
earn Godís favor through good works or
service.
....
The other danger or unhealthy extreme is
antinomianism. This is from the Greek words
anti, meaning against, and nomos, meaning
law; that is against law, or lawlessness. This
is sometimes referred to as cheap or greasy
grace. I call it worldly or carnal Christianity,
and it really does not deserve to be called
Christianity at all. Those on this end of the
spectrum seem little concerned with holiness,
Godís or their own, because after all, ìwe are
not under law anymore but under graceî, and
ìonce saved always saved.î (Not all who use
these phrases or slogans fall into this error
but they are sometimes used in that fashion.)

found at
http://www.rolchurch.com/newsermons/2000/c
olossians/cl11religionrelationship.html

Following in Jesus's footsteps

Ken
Max
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 5:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ken, I couldn't agree more! Now read this:

Dear Adventist Friend Ken: THE POPE DIDNíT
CHANGE THE LAW! JESUS DID!

God gave me this insight through Colleen. At
the FAF dinner at Cocoís in Redlands after the
FAF meeting

*********************************
FORMER ADVENTIST FELLOWSHIP
6:45 PM Friday Evenings
Fellowship Hall
Trinity Evangelical Free Church
Reservoir Road
Redlands, California
Intersection of I-10, Ford Exit
EVERYBODY WELCOME!
*********************************
we were discussing whether or not the Old
Testament law was ìstrongî or ìfeeble.î

The person sitting on my right, was
questioning my assertion that the law was
feeble. ìWhat do you mean by feeble?î he
asked.

ìIt canít save,î I said.

He asked me to explain. And I got into the idea
that the New Covenant commandments of
Jesus Christ were an IMPROVEMENT on the
Ten Commandments of Moses. For example,
Christís command of do not hate your brother
was an IMPROVEMENT on the Sixth
Commandment, ìThou shalt not kill,î meaning
murder.

He then challenged me on the idea that the
law could be changed. I was trying to show
how, when Colleen interjected Hebrews 7:12:
ìWhen there is a change of the priesthood,
there must also be a change of the law.î

In context the Law of Moses was changed to
accommodate the priesthood of Jesus, who
was not of the Levites, by the Law of Moses
the only tribe from which priests could come.
But, says Hebrews, the law was changed to
accommodate the priesthood of Christ, since
Christ was ìa priest forever in the order of
[non-Levite] Melchizedek.î Hebrews 7:17
quoting Psalm 110 4.

Thus Hebrews 7 establishes establishes the
principle that the law CAN and HAS been
changed!

Christís Sermon on Mt. Blessings is basically
an IMPROVEMENT on the Ten
Commandments. They are improved in two
ways:

1. Laws, such as that against murder, were
changed and improved by making them
mental processes in addition to physical
actions. Thus ìmalice aforethoughtî is a
breaking of a Commandment of Christ,
whereas it is not a breaking of the Sixth
Commandment.

2. Christís Commandments omit the onerous
and burdensome aspects of the Law of
Moses: circumcising, Sabbath-keeping,
tithe-paying, people-shunning (ìremnantizing,î
ìmark-of-the-beasting,î ìpeculiar-peoplingî),
and so on.

Therefore it was not the Pope -- as both
Adventists and Catholics assert -- who
changed the law.

JESUS CHANGED IT!

Praising God,

Max of the Cross
Bruceh
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max you are right

Matt 5:21-22 21 Ye have heard that it was said
by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and
whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the
judgment:
So Ye have heard from old time = Old Covenant.
(THIS IS OLD COVENANT COMMANDMENT #6 IN DECOLOGUE
AND # 34 IN BOOK OF LAW)

22 BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, That whosoever is angry
with his brother without a cause shall be in
danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to
his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the
council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall
be in danger of hell fire.

So Jesus is saying that the Old Covenant Ten
Commandments is not good enough that the standards
are even higher so He compares the old commandment
Ten Commandments and gives HIS New Covenant
Commandment. Notice that He is comparing it to
the Big Ten which are part of all 613 commandments
you will see as we go along.

Matt 5:27-28 27 Ye have heard that it was said
by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit
adultery:
So Ye have heard from old time = Old Covenant.
( THIS IS THE OLD COVENANT COMMANDMENT IN THE
DECOLOGUE #7 AND # 35 IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW).

28 BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, That whosoever looketh on
a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery
with her already in his heart.

So Jesus on the Mountain gives a New Covenant
Commandment, and raises the standard even higher
for it is a better Covenant with better promises.
(Heb 8:6). Notice that Again Jesus sets aside the
Ten Commandments and replaces it with a better
Commandment.

Matt 5:31-32 31 It hath been said, Whosoever
shall put away his wife, let him give her a
writing of divorcement:
It has been said = Old Covenant.

32 BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, That whosoever shall put
away his wife, saving for the cause of
fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and
whosoever shall marry her that is divorced
committeth adultery.

Jesus know goes after the Book of the Law to
commandment # 579 Deut 24:1. Again He raises the
standard in fact as you will see He raises them
all the way. So Jesus replaces the Book of the
Law with his New covenant commandment.

Matt 5: 33-37 33 Again, ye have heard that it
hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not
forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord
thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither
by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool:
neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the
great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because
thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay,
nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of
evil.

Jesus again goes to the Book of the Law or Law of
Moses and picks commandment # 226, and #227 Lev
19:12. Know this one he does not raise the
standard but says don't make an oath at all.
Could it be because He knows that we cannot keep
them (I thought you had to become perfect).

MATT 5:38-41 38 Ye have heard that it hath been
said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil:
but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek,
turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and
take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile,
go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him
that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Here Jesus states the Old Covenant Commandment
which is Commandment # 524 (Deut 19:18-19) in the
book of the Law and changes it also.

Matt 5:43-45 43 Ye have heard that it hath been
said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine
enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless
them that curse you, do good to them that hate
you, and pray for them which despitefully use you,
and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father
which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise
on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on
the just and on the unjust.

Jesus is referring to the Great Commandment which
is Commandment #243 in the book of the Law Lev
19:18, if you do not believe me look at the chain
reference in your bible. The context of the
verse, 3You shall not take revenge or bear a
grudge against your countrymen, but you shall love
your neighbor as yourself,2 suggests that love is
being commanded only toward one1s countrymen.
Leviticus 19:34 (the alien living with you) and
Deut 10:19 command Israelites to love the
stranger, that is the non-Israelite, as themselves
but it is only toward those who live among the
Isrealit community.
Also Commandment # 561-562-563-564, which is found
(Deut 23:3-10) I will state it for you.
1) Against Ammonites and Moabites ever becoming
Hebrews.
2) Against concerning oneself with their
well-being, The Ammonites and Moabites
3) Against hating Edomites and Egyptians.
4) In addition, there is the positive stipulation
that Edomites and Egyptians can be admitted into
the Israelite community in the third generation.
He is know replacing this one and again raising
the standard.
Know you cannot hate your enemy or just love your
neighbor but you must love all.
So do you see the Big difference the Old says Love
your neighbor the New say that ye Love one
another. The Old say love as yourself the New say
as Jesus loved us.

Know here is the High Point and the point that
most Old Covenant Christians seem to miss. The
ultimate New Covenant Commandment.
Matt 5:48 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as
your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Wow you mean God is not kidding I have to be
perfect. YES. You may say well then nobody will
make it, and I say on your own right. But with
Jesus guess what,
Heb 10:14 14 For by one offering he hath
perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
So Jesus has perfected me forever even while he is
in the process of sanctifying me, YES.

Bruce Heinrich


BH


Bh


BH
Bruceh
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 5:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max

I believe that all truth comes in seed form.
A seed does not bear fruit untill it is a tree.
You must first water the seed with the word of God
and then the seed of truth will bear fruit.
Do not get frustrated if you are not seeing fruit
just remember that it is seeds that you are sowing
and it is God who gives the increase.
You are doing a great Job Max keep up the good
work.

Bruce Heinirch
Bruceh
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 5:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill T

Blessed are the peace makers.

Bruce Heinrich


BH
Bruceh
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 5:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ken

Do not get to frustrated with us Remember the
Great Commandment LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVE
YOU.

Ken If you knew Max you would find that he is not
an antinomiest in fact he has a true Love for the
Lord and he Loves to worship him and please him.
Ken, Max is not trying to get out from under Gods
Law in fact the Max I know upholds Gods Law.

Titus 3:9 9 But avoid foolish disputes,
genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the
law; for they are unprofitable and useless.
Now since this is a Law Issue then it must be
UNPROFITABLE AND USLESS right.

So Let us praise God for His Son Jesus who saves
all who believe.

Is Jesus your Savior then you must be saved right.


Bruce Heinrich
Max
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Bruce,

I agree that our sovereign God has absolute
control of this web site and that he is using
people like Ken mightily to stimulate us to
study and prayer so that we can present a
clear gospel message to the 3,000 to 4,000
different souls surfing by every week.

Blessings your powerful contributions,

Max of the Cross
Max
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 6:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oops, Ken,

I forgot to include in my last post to you this
text Hebrews 7:18. "The former regulation" --
the one prohibiting Jesus from being a priest
-- "IS SET ASIDE because because it was
weak and useless (for the law made nothing
perfect), and a better hope [Jesus] is
introduced, by which we draw near to God."

Please come back soon, Ken. We need you
here. You're an invaluable part of our
soul-winning team.

God bless you wherever you are,

Max of the Cross
Jtree
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ken, sounds like you want GRACE, but you also want WORKS!

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
But if it be of works, then is it no more
grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Is the whole of our salvation accomplished by the finished work of our Holy Substitute?

Or,

is there something else that Ken can do to make himself more fit, qualified, holy, or otherwise more acceptable in the sight of God?

Can Ken establish his righteousness more securely by his supposed performance of the law?

Or,

is the righteousness of Christ Ken's all and only means of acceptance before a Holy God?

The message of free and sovereign grace is an offense to Ken's pride because he refuses to
admit that he is totally incapable of doing anything good (Rom. 3:10-12).

Ken, refusing to find your satisfaction
in the righteousness of Christ, you go about
to establish your own righteousness (Rom. 10:3).

Though you often succeed in impressing other men, most especially yourself, God is worse than not impressed. He is infinitely offended by your attempt to rob Christ of His glory.

God says works and grace are mutually exclusive. Grace by definition means the total absence of works.

Once you introduce works into grace you no longer have grace but only works. A little bit of leaven
leavens the whole lump. You can not mix works and grace any more than you can mix oil and water.

Regardless of how hard you shake the bottle the heavier water gravitates to the bottom and the lighter oil to the top. So it is with works and grace. The living water of God's grace will be completely covered by the oil of man's works, so that if one attempts to find refreshment from
that glass they will ingest nothing but
sickening oil. Not only will it not satisfy,
it will cause them to loose even what they have.
Jtree
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 8:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ALL:

Some people would have us believe that if we preach pure grace it will lead people to licentious living. They say if we remove the law as a guide or motivation for Christian living, people will have nothing to keep them holy. They say to tell a person to just follow Christ doesn't provide enough structure and will lead people to careless living. Is that where the gospel of God's free and sovereign grace in Christ Jesus leads? Grace preachers have always been, and always will be, falsely accused of this devilish lie. The
apostle Paul spent most of his time defending the gospel of grace against this lawmongers view of serf-righteousness. "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." Rom 6:15 No, grace does not lead to sin, grace leads to Christ. He is able by the law of love and faith to restrain our flesh and make us His workmanship.
Jtree
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 8:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LAW OR GRACE - YOU CANNOT HAVE BOTH!

Galatians 5:4

Most religious people attempt to mix man's works of obedience to the law with God's works of grace for sinners, making salvation a mixture of works and grace, It has been this way since the days of Cain and Abel, No one says, "Salvation is by works." But almost everyone believes it. When salvation by God's free grace alone is declared plainly,lost religionists cling to and defend their works, denouncing the one who dares to affirm that salvation is by GRACE ALONE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE, IN CHRIST ALONE as a promoter of licentiousness and a vile antinomian, Yet, the truth must be declared in plain, unmistakable terms.

GRACE AND WORKS ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. They annihilate one another. If we are saved by our own
works in any way, to any degree, in whole or in part, then we are not saved by the grace of God. if we are saved by the grace of God alone, then we are not saved by our own works of obedience to the law of God (Rom. 11:6). The doctrine of Holy
Scripture is unmistakable, The whole work of salvation. (election, redemption, regeneration, sanctification, preservation, and glorification), is by the grace of God alone (Rom. 8:28-30; II Tim. 1:9; Eph. 2:8-9}.

ALL CHURCHES, RELIGIONS, AND SYSTEMS OF DOCTRINE WHICH TEACH SALVATION BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW ARE HERETICAL.

I mean to be understood. I am saying that any teaching that says sinners are,justified, given favor with God,sanctified,preserved, or shall inherit the reward of heavenly glory upon the basis of their own personal obedience to the law of God is legalism, anti-christ, and damning to all who receive it (Gal. 5:1-4).

THIS GOSPEL DOCTRINE OF SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE DOES, MOST CERTAINLY, EXTEND EVEN TO THE BELIEVER'S SANCTIFICATION IN CHRIST.

To be sanctified is to be set apart by God for holy service, declared to be holy, and actually made holy. If, as all agree, sanctification is that without which no man shall see the Lord,then sanctification can no more be a matter of works than justification. And this is exactly what the Word of God declares. The Bible nowhere presents sanctification as a conditional thing, depending upon the believer's works, It is an unconditional work of grace, performed for us and in us by the triune God (Jude 1, Heb. 1O:10; II Thess. 2:13). "By grace ye are saved!"
Jtree
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 8:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FAITH ALONE TELLS US:

We Stand in grace. Grace is not moveable and the righteousness of Jesus Christ doesn't come and go according to the winds of man's obedience. God has placed us upon the Solid Rock, made Himself our refuge, and we shall never be moved.

While our standing is permanent, our rejoicing is by faith alone. God given faith is not a philosophical thing that leads men to sin. True faith emboldens the conscience and enables a man to surrender to the will of God. "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the loved of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto usÖ For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life (Rom 5:3-5, 10)."

Faith makes us glory in tribulations. The present season may be exceedingly painful, but when faith reveals that God sent the trial in love, we say, "It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes (Ps 119:71)." Faith waits patiently to obtain what God has promised. Self-confidence is purged and true faith remains, giving glory to God by trusting that what He has promised, He is able to perform (Rom 4:16-21). Faith never hopes in her own righteousness, but faith hopes and receives comfort in the Risen Christ- whose death both reconciled us unto God and clearly manifests the permanence of His love for us.
Darrell
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have been enjoying catching up on this discussion. Thanks for all of your contributions.

Ken, I read the paper you suggested by D. J. Conklin, and I want to make a few comments about it, but I don't have my notes and am short on time. Hopefully I will get back to you sometime this week.
Bruceh
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jtree

Good Job on Grace.

Bruce Heinrich
Maryann
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Ken;-)),

I still don't know who Jesus is and you are the only person that can tell me who He is as we are marooned on an island together!

We may die one this island before we can be resucued! I neeeeeeeeeeed to know!

Maryann
Billthompson
Posted on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 8:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ken,

If you are satisfied with your efforts to earn salvation by works (or grace plus works) you must be comparing your works to the works of other human beings. Compare your works to God's perfect satndard. I guarantee you will find that you fall far short of the mark when compared to His standard of perfection. Then you will find His all sufficient saving grace to be a beautiful thing rather than a message which repulses you.

I am in no way an advocate of reckless, sinful living. My own testimony is one of living a better, less sinful life after coming to understand that my works do not save but rather the Grace of God alone saves me. Having the assurance of my salvation freed me to truly live for Him and take the focus off myself and reach out to lost people with the Good News.

When I was a SDA I had no message for the lost, only arguments for other Christians, sabbath, state of the dead, etc. Now I have Good News for lost people and it is centered on Jesus rather than Moses.

A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone,
Bill Thompson
Ken
Posted on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 9:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in
heaven is perfect.

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