Archive through November 1, 2000 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 1 » Protestants Have Returned to the Roman Catholic Doctrine of Justification » Archive through November 1, 2000 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Cindy
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

RichardTinker,

Thank-you for your thoughts above...

Yes! Let's leave the Holy Spirit's work in HIS hands... and in HIS timing...pointing always to our all-sufficient Savior.

"Let us fix our eyes on JESUS, the Author and Perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God!"
(Hebrews 12)

Grace always,
Cindy
Max
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THE FOOL

It's not that I don't agree with you. You have
more than convinced me. And it wasnít so
much your compelling logic as it was you
yourself. You -- with your terribly simple
integrity -- have set forth truth that I would
hardly dare think, never speak. What shocks
me is your fearless presentation of reality,
your utter honesty.

But what good is that to you? Who am I to you
that you should shock and convince me? I
havenít the courage to be your ally.

Whether you are right or wrong is no longer
the point. This is something you do not seem
to understand. The point is that you have
become so immersed in your personal
struggle, so engrossed in your intense search
for truth, that you have forgotten to fear the
dragon which at this moment breaths its fire
down your neck.

Are you oblivious to this monster? Donít you
realize that your courage and your
independent judgment have singled you out
from the mass? Donít you know you canít
hope for a fair hearing before you are stamped
out?

Amid the anesthetic soothings of ěpeace,
peaceî you insist that ěthere is no peace.î
While men sing the praises of the exterior
white paint, you expose rotting timbers and cry
for new, stronger girders; thus your enemies
accuse you of disrespecting the white paint.
While men extoll the colors and fragrance of
the flowers which camouflage the foundation,
you push aside the flowers and reveal cracks;
thus your enemies charge you with despising
our flowers.

In short, your loyalty is of a higher order.
Before you are loyal to the house, you are loyal
to the master of the house. Your loyalty to men
is superseded by your loyalty to God. Your
enemies know this, but they will not admit it.
They plug their ears when they hear it.

Just who do you think you are? Jeremiah or
God Himself? Only a prophet or a fool would
dare cry out against indulgence, when Godís
very representative on earth -- a man who
cannot err nor go astray -- has granted it? Who
are you to question whether a sinner can buy
his way out of hell by tossing golden coins into
an iron chest? Who are you to insist that only
Christ can clean a dirty man when the priests
are doing it every day? By whose authority do
you say the skull of a martyr cannot purchase
its owner eternal bliss?

You may be right. In fact, you have convinced
my own mental faculties. I cannot argue with
you. Yet I cannot accept what you say. How
can you, one man -- with nothing more than
the ability to think and act independently from
other men -- set yourself against the eternal
church of God, outside of which no man can
escape eternal damnation?

You are willing even to cut across holy
tradition, even to deprive the pope of his
rocklike, God-given authority over life and
death, over heaven and hell. And all for the
sake of your own principle -- ěthe upright man
shall live by his faith in God.î I can hear the
pope now. ěBohemian poison! Hussite
heresy! He will cast numberless souls into
flames of endless hell! Almighty God orders
that he retract or be burned alive!î

You may be right as far as you know. But how
do you know you know enough? What if you
are wrong? What if you neglect the one small
detail that could ruin you? What then?

You say you will leave the results in he hands
of Almighty God. I can only add, may God have
mercy on your soul.

No, you are neither God nor Jeremiah. I know
who you are. I have known you from those
grueling days and nights when you searched
the inner recesses of your soul in the chill
sweating floors of the Black Monastery. I have
heard your cry -- ěO wretched man that I am!î --
from your cell in the night when the other
monks were laughing. I have seen your tears
-- the tears of a burly peasant boy from a dirty
mining town seeking only salvation for his
tortured soul.

I know who you are. You are only one man, so
honest and so true to the God you know so
well that you will never retract, never go back
on Him.

I know who are. You are Martin Luther, son of
Hans Luther, from Mansfield, a priest of the
holy Roman Catholic Church about not nail
ninety-fife propositions for debate to the door
of Castle Church here in Wittenberg.

Yea, Fool indeed, may God have mercy on
your angry soul.


Max Gordon Phillips
INSCRIPTIONS
Copyright 1970
Pacific Press Publishing Association
Mountain View, California
Cindy
Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max, very, very interesting...I read it twice and will sleep on it tonight.

You wrote that 30 years ago?!!

I've always loved the following quote from Martin Luther! I think it applies to us here as we have studied ourselves away from various "doctrines" said to be vital to our salvation...

"Unless I am convinced by sacred Scripture or by evident reason--I can not recant.
For my conscience is held captive by the Word of God--and to act against conscience is neither right nor safe.
Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me."

Grace always,
Cindy
Lori
Posted on Friday, October 27, 2000 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max,

I believe that the righteousness of Christ and the sinlessness of Christ are SEPARATED FROM US. They are inseparable in the hypostatic union.

We are told that we are partakers of the righteousness of Christ, it is one thing to partake in something and another to own it.

It's like......a lifetime membership to an exclusive country club (and being the person who can't afford one). Let's say it's financially and socially impossible for me to join the local country club, however, I have a friend who owns the club. If I walk up to the front desk, alone and on the basis of who I am and try to enter, I would be refused. But, if my friend, who owns the club extends the invitation for me to be his guest, without any questions asked, I could walk right in with him. I would be able to partake in the benefits of his club strictly by association with him. --If I tried to go back the next day, without my friend and again try to enter on the basis of "well,my friend brought me yesterday", I would be turned away. We are righteous by association, but we are not sinless by association.

You wrote this: "this grace is real/pure and not entangled with my own sinfulness/imperfection"

I say, "Exactly"

Christ is righteous, Christ is sinless.

I'm NOT righteous and I'm NOT sinless.

However, the robe of Christ's righteousness covers my unrighteousness and my sinfulness so that when "I do sin, I have one who speaks to the Father in my defense--Jesus Christ, THE righteous one".

(If after we are saved, we are sinless, why would Christ speak to the Father on our behalf when we do sin?) It wouldn't be necessary.

Christ's righteousness, is just that, it's Christ's. I just partake of it. It doesn't become mine. It's His, I only enjoy the benefits of His accomplishment.

Being covered with his righteousness means that I'm still wearing the filthy body of sin underneath it, but nobody can see it because I'm covered with his robe. Because I'm wearing the robe doesn't mean I'm not going to act like I'm not. I'm still going to sin, I'm still going to act just like what's under the robe, sometimes--maybe even most of the time.

When I accepted Christ I received many things....some times I use them and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I act like Him and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I want to act like Him and I just can't seem to do it. And sometimes I don't want to act like Him and so I deliberately sin.

Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul wrote about precisely this struggle, obviously he was very familiar with it. And obviously he knew he was still sinful, even though, he was saved and covered with Christ's righteousness. David was a man after God's own heart, but David did some sinning, David acknowledged "I have sinned!" Maybe these people weren't saved---that's what some denominations would say, if they were people in our day doing these things---but they would be disagreeing with scripture, wouldn't they?

You are deceiving yourself when you conclude that you are sinless 1 John 1:12

I've answered your last question directed to me--and will abide by Colleen's request to refrain from further comments on the discussion.
Lori
Posted on Friday, October 27, 2000 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti,Maryann,Sherry, and anyone else that I have corresponded with over email:

We recently got a new server and I have a new email address, (the old on is belair). Drop me a note at my "email P.O Box"-- LoriCD@excite.com (I check it ocassionally) and I will send you my "real" address. I "lost" all of your email addresses when we changed computers. Thanks

Lori
Max
Posted on Friday, October 27, 2000 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Lori,

I appreciated your illustration and agree
completely with it. As far as this discussion is
concerned, I don't believe Colleen requested
that we refrain from further comments on it,
righteousness by faith, but rather on the
subject of whether or not the Protestant
churches have abandoned the Reformation's
version of righteousness by faith and
accepted the Counter-Reformation's version
of it.

If you don't choose to answer my question,
that's all right. I never demand that anyone
answer my questions. (I kidded around good
naturedly with Ken, because I see him as a
buddy who can "take it" as well as "dish it out,"
but I never demanded that he answer.)

I don't believe you answered my questions at
all. And that's your right. So I'll ask a different
question, which you don't have to answer
either if you don't want to.

You wrote, ^^I believe that the righteousness
of Christ and the sinlessness of Christ are
separated from US.^^

My question: Do you believe that the
righteousness of Christ and the sinlessness
of Christ are separated from EACH OTHER?

In Christ's love for you,
Lori
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 9:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max,

Jesus was sinless, yes, but it was an act of his own volition, we don't receive the volition of Christ.

I answered your question: I wrote, "In the hypostatic union they are inseparable"

In my Spirit, in that part only, I am righteous, but that has nothing to do with the other 2/3rds of what I'm made of--and I am not sinless and neither are you.
Max
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 9:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good morning Lori!

I'm not sure how you're using the term
"hypostatic."

In my Webster's 10th "hypostasis" is:

A. "one of the three modes of being in the
Trinitarian Godhead as understood by
Christians."

B. "the unitary personality of Christ that unites
the divine and human natures."

C. a synonym for "person."

Could you explain a bit more?

God love you,
Max
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 9:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori,

You're not sinless [perfect] forever by faith
alone in the objective, historical, once-for-all,
totally "outside of us" sacrifice of Christ?
Billthompson
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unless I am missing somethig, this is another situation on this forum where two people (Max and Lori) believe the same thing but are miscommunicating somehow.

While we never reach a state of sinless perfection in and of ourselves here on this earth, we are "counted", "considered", "judged" as being sinless because of Christ alone. The sinlessnesss is not something we have accomplished in the flesh.

Agree?

A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone,
Bill Thompson
Max
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Bill. You always seem to be the first to
"see."
Lori
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Bill, I think you are correct...I agree with your statement----Maybe I'm just stubborn, but being "counted" as sinless and "being" sinless are still different----this side of eternity.

Max, answer to the multiple choice: B: the unification of the divine and human nature of Christ
Max
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Lori,

Being counted as sinless and being sinless
are definitely different, just as being counted
as righteous and being righteous are
definitely different. The believer cannot
separate "the righteousness of Christ by faith
alone" from "the sinlessness of Christ by faith
alone."

As to your multiple choice question, could you
clarify? It I can't decypher it as it stands.

In God's love for you,
Max
Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And Lori,

You are not saying that we believers stand
"this side" of eternity, are you?

Didn't we accept eternity when we accepted
Jesus? And didn't he give us eternity when he
said, "I give you eternal life." He didn't say, I
WILL give you eternal life after you die or after
my Second Coming. He said, I give you
eternal life now. It's something that all saved
people are in now! Is that not so?
Lori
Posted on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 5:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not going to agree with you that we are sinless....that is just not Biblical. On "this earthly side of eternity", we are not totally without sin, "the Bible tells us so". And you are not going to be able to badger me into your viewpoint. :) The fact that our spiritual life, in Christ, imputes his righteousness to us, when we believe, still does not change the fact that the other 2/3rds of my make up are sinful. I still have the sin nature, I still allow it to control instead of the Holy Spirit, I am still sinful on this earth. Only after I have received my resurrection body will I be without sin, at that time I will no longer have the sin nature that was passed down from Adam. I will for the first time live in my "perfected" state, just as Adam and Eve did in the Garden. Just because the price for sin has been paid, doesn't mean that I am without sin.

Concerning the term, hypostatic union: (hypostatic was in my dictionary(?) The presence of two natures (undiminished deity and true humanity) in the person of Jesus Christ. Both natures are inseparably united without loss or mixture of separate identity, without loss or transfer of properties or attributes, the union being personal and eternal.

This definition can not be used to prove that the sinlessness of Christ is transferred to me. The sinlessness of Christ was based upon his personal volition and my ability to make the choices in the same manner that Christ would have is totally dependent on me staying controlled by the Holy Spirit. Since this control factor is constantly in a battle with the sin nature that I possess, the sin nature "wins" and at those times I live "in sin". I will agree that as long as I am controlled by the Holy Spirit-at those times in my life and at those times only-I am sinless! Enough said, it's time for us to agree to disagree.
Max
Posted on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Lori,

I'm not going to agree with you that we are
righteous....that is just not Biblical. On "this
earthly side of eternity", we are not totally
without unrighteousness, "the Bible tells us
so". The fact that our spiritual life, in Christ,
imputes his sinlessness to us, when we
believe, still does not change the fact that the
other 2/3rds of my make up are unrighteous. I
still have the unrighteous nature, I still allow it
to control instead of the Holy Spirit, I am still
unrighteous on this earth. Only after I have
received my resurrection body will I be without
unrighteousness, at that time I will no longer
have the unrighteous nature that was passed
down from Adam. I will for the first time live in
my "righteous" state, just as Adam and Eve
did in the Garden. Just because the price for
unrighteousness has been paid, doesn't
mean that I am without unrighteousness.

Hypostasis can not be used to prove that the
righteousness of Christ is transferred to me.
The righteousness of Christ was based upon
his personal volition and my ability to make
the choices in the same manner that Christ
would have is totally dependent on me staying
controlled by the Holy Spirit. Since this control
factor is constantly in a battle with the
unrighteous nature that I possess, the
unrighteous nature "wins" and at those times I
live "in unrighteousness". I will agree that as
long as I am controlled by the Holy Spirit-at
those times in my life and at those times only-I
am righteous!

If I am not going to be able to badger you into
my viewpoint, do I at lest have a chance to
raccoon or opossum you into it?

;-)
Max
Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 5:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Lori,

God sent me a dream last night. In it I was a
part of a democratic revolutionary army that
had just regained control of a region in a
nation that was ruled by a HItler-like dictator
who still controlled most region of the nation,
which I will call Nowharnia.

We were encamped in a place that contained
ancient ruins, such as Roman Emperor
Hadrian's stone wall that still runs between
Scotland and England.

My CO (commanding officer) had placed me
on guard duty near the ruined wall. I carried a
loaded rifle, and I was so scared that I kept my
finger on the trigger as the newly liberated
civilians in the region that we controlled went
about the business of trying to put their lives
back together under our aegis.

One day a young man in Nowharniaís uniform
approached the wall. He appeared to be
unarmed, though I felt he could still be hiding
a small sidearm in his boot or elsewhere on
his person. He tried to pass. I stepped in front
of him and blocked his way with my rifle.

ěState your business,î I said.

He refused to answer.

ěThen come with me,î I said, ěand Iíll take you
to my CO, and you can tell him your
business.î

He followed me while I walked up the side of a
hill to where my CO was busy directing troops
who were setting up headquarters. The CO
told me he didnít have time to talk to the man
and told me to deal with him according to
standard military regulations. I could have him
incarcerated as a prisoner of war. Or I could
expel him from the camp.

Since he still refused to state his business to
me, and since we had not yet set up a
guardhouse, I decided to expel him from the
camp. So I forced him at gunpoint to return to
the ruined wall which formed the perimeter of
our encampment. Little children were
permitted to pass freely across the wall, but
not adults in enemy uniforms who refused to
state their business.

I canít recall what happened at the very end of
the dream, but when I awoke I had the strong
impression that I needed to apologize to you
for posting the parody just above. It was not a
Christ-like thing to do, and Iím sorry.

In Christís name,

Max
Lori
Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 7:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max,

No apology needed. I found it quite comical, however, if it was written as ridicule, (there is still no apology needed) that is between God and you.

Believe me "I am not without "sin/unrighteousness" ,either, so I will not cast "any" stones"!!! (I just HAD to write that!) :)

And to answer your question: No raccoons, oppossums or "parrots", either.
Max
Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Lori,

Now I need to post what I should have posted.
I believe that:

1. Christ's righteousness = his sinlessness.
Therefore I can have the assurance of my
salvation in this life.

2. My unrighteousness = my sinfulness.
Therefore I can have the assurance of my
salvation in this life.

3. When his sinlessness covers my
sinfulness I am sinless by faith alone in him.
Therefore I can have the assurance of my
salvation in this life.

4. When his righteousness covers my
unrighteousness I am righteous by faith
alone in him. Therefore I can have the
assurance of my salvation in this life.

5. At no time between now and the Second
Coming or my death am I ever righteous or
sinless in an of myself. Therefore I can have
the assurance of my salvation in this life.

6. Even after my resurrection or
translation/rapture, throughout all eternity
ahead, I will STILL be unrighteous and sinfull
in and of myself. There will NEVER be a time
when I will be righteous and sinless apart
from Christ. Therefore I can have the
assurance of my salvation in this life.

7. Even after my resurrection or
translation/rapture, throughout all eternity
ahead, Christ will STILL be 100% my
righteousness and 100% my sinlessness.
There will NEVER be a time when he will not
be. Therefore I can have the assurance of my
salvation in this life.

8. You are free to disagree with that and
believe something different for yourself and I
will still accept you as a child of God and a
citizen of the kingdom of heaven which is
under our feet as well as over our heads
(Hebrews 12:22, Luke 17:20-21, Matthew
13:1-52).

Under real grace alone,

Max of the Cross
Max
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 12:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori, a query:

Do you agree with the following Scripture?

"By one sacrifice he has made perfect forever
those who are being made holy." NIV
Hebrews 10:14.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration