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Maryann
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Y'all,

I found some of my favorite books the other day and among them was, "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel.

He has had an impact on my life in several ways. I've heard at least 4 interviews, listened to his book on tape and read the book. The content of the book is just too involved to get into here except for the short and sweet parts that affected me the most where I was in my life at the time.

Just a little about Lee Strobel by Bruce M. Metzger, Prof of N.T., Emeritus Princeton Theological Seminary:

"The author of The Case For Christ, an investigative journalist with a legal background, probes with bulldog-like tenacity the evidence for the truth of biblical Christianity. Believers and agnostics alike will learn from this fast-paced book."

Let me jump in and quote Lee directly from page 13...


"For much of my life I was a skeptic. In fact, I considered myself an atheist. To me, there was far too much evidence that God was merely a product of wishful thinking, of ancient mythology, of primitive superstition.......

As far as I was concerned, the case was closed, there was enough proof for me to rest easy with the conclusion that the divinity of Jesus was nothing more than the fanciful invention of superstitious people."

Page 14... "Leslie {Lee's wife} stunned me in the autumn of 1979 by announcing that she had become a Christian. I rolled my eyes and braced for the worst, feeling like a victim of a bait and switch scam. I had married one Leslie-the fun Leslie, the risk-taking Leslie- and now I feared she was going to turn into some sort of a sexually repressed prude who would trade our upwardly mobile lifestyle for all-night prayer vigils and volunteer work in grimy soup kitchens.

Instead I was pleasantly surprised-even fascinated- by the fundamental changes in her character, her integrity, her personal confidence. Eventually I wanted to get to the bottom of what prompted these subtle but significant shifts in my wifeís attitudes, so I launched an all-out investigation into the facts surrounding the case for Christianity."

Lee Strobel took up the challenge of investigating thoroughly, the ìJesus scam.î You can read the book and really be blessed by it. It, by the way was, one of the first books listed on this forumís list of great books.

I listed the above to show where Lee came from as far as his view of God. Below is what I firmly believe is scriptural and what happens when a person completely turns their life over to God. This is what

After skipping 250 some pages of ìpacked interest,î weíll pick up at page 267 and see where this atheist ended up.

ìTHE FORMULA OF FAITH

After a personal investigation that spanned more than six hundred days and countless hours, my own verdict in the case for Christ was clear. However, as I sat at my desk, I realized that I needed more than an intellectual decision. I wanted to take the experiential step that J.P. Moreland had described in the last interview.

Looking for a way to bring that about, I reached over to a Bible and turned to John 1:12, a verse I had encountered during my investigation: ëYet to all that receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become the children of God.í

The key verbs in that verse spell out with mathematical precision what it takes to go beyond mere mental assent to Jesusí deity and enter into an ongoing relationship with Him by becoming adopted into Godís family: believe + receive = become.

1. Believe

As someone educated in journalism and law, I was trained to respond to the facts, wherever they lead. For me, the data demonstrated convincingly that Jesus is the Son of God who died as my substitute to pay the penalty I deserved for the wrongdoing I had committed.

And there was plenty of wrongdoing. Iíll spare myself the embarrassment of going into details, but the truth is that I had been living a profane, drunken, self-absorbed, and immoral lifestyle. In my career, I had backstabbed my colleagues to gain a personal advantage and had routinely violated legal and ethical standards in the pursuit of stories. In my personal life, I was sacrificing my wife and children on the alter of success. I was a liar, a cheat, and a deceiver.

My heart had shrunk to the point where it was rock hard toward anyone else. My main motivator was personal pleasure-and ironically, the more I hungrily sought after it, the more elusive and self destructive it became.

When I read in the Bible that these sins separated me from God, who is holy and morally pure, this resonated as being true. Certainly God, whose existence I had denied for years, seemed extremely distant, and it became obvious to me that I needed the cross of Jesus to bridge that gulf. Said the apostle Peter, ëFor Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to Godí (1 Peter 3:18).

All this I now believed. The evidence of history and my own experience was too strong to ignore.

2. Receive

Every other faith system I studied during my investigation was based on the ëdoí plan. In other words, it was necessary for people to do something- for example, use a Tibetan prayer wheel, pay alms, go on pilgrimages, undergo reincarnations, work off karma from past misdeeds, reform their character- to try to somehow earn their way back to God. Despite their best efforts, lots of sincere people just wouldnít make it.

Christianity is unique. Itís based on the ëdoneí plan ñ Jesus has done for us on the cross what we can not do for ourselves: He has paid the death penalty that we deserve for our rebellion and wrongdoing so we can become reconciled with God.

I didnít have to struggle and strive to try to do the impossible of making myself worthy. Over and over the Bible says that Jesus offers forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift that can not be earned (see Romans 6:23; Eph. 2: 8-9; Titus 3:5). Itís called grace- amazing grace, unmerited favor. Itís available to anyone who receives it in a sincere prayer of repentance. Even someone like me.

Yes, I had to take a step of faith, as we do in every decision we make in life. But hereís
the crucial distinction: I was no longer trying to swim upstream against the strong current of evidence; instead I was choosing to go in the same direction that the torrent of facts was flowing. That was reasonable, that was rational, it was also what I sensed Godís Spirit was nudging me to do.

So on November 8, 1981, I talked with God in a heartfelt and unedited prayer, admitting and turning from my wrongdoing, and receiving the gift of forgiveness and eternal life through Jesus. I told him that with His help I wanted to follow Him and His ways from here on out.

There were no lightning bolts, no audible replies, no tingly sensations. I know some people feel a rush of emotion at such a moment; as for me, however, there was something else that was equally exhilarating: there was a rush of reason.

3. Become

After taking that step, I knew from John 1: 12 that I had crossed the threshold into a new experience. I had become something different; a child of God, forever adopted into His family through the historical, risen Jesus. Said the apostle Paul, 'Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, and the new has comeí (2 Cor. 5:17).

Sure enough, over time as I endeavored to follow Jesusí teachings and open myself to His transforming power, my priorities, my values, and my character were (and continue to be) gradually changed. Increasingly I want Jesusí motives and perspectives to be my own. To paraphrase Martin Luther King Jr., I may not be the man I should be or the man, with Christís help, I will someday be ñ but thank God Iím not the man I used to be!

Maybe that sounds mystical to you; I donít know. Not so long ago it would have to me. But itís very real to me now and to those around me. In fact, so radical was the difference in my life that a few months after I became a follower of Jesus, our five-year old daughter Alison went up to my wife and said, ëMommy, I want God to do for me what Heís done for Daddy.í

Here was a little girl that had only know a father who was profane, angry, verbally harsh, and all too often absent. And even though she had never interviewed a scholar, never analyzed the data, never investigated historical evidence, she had seen up close the influence that Jesus can have on one personís life. In effect, she was saying, ëIf this is what God does to a human being, thatís what I want for me.í

Looking back nearly two decades, I can see with clarity that the day I personally made a decision in the case for Christ was nothing less than the pivotal event of my entire life.î

What an awesome testimony to Christ. I thank God that Leeís wife, Leslie, witnessed to him in the way she did. Lee was not interested in ANY kind of gospel, Bible, preaching or written or spoken testimony.....Jesus was a scam!

When Lee observed as he said in his book, ìEventually I wanted to get to the bottom of what prompted these subtle but significant shifts in my wifeís attitudes, so I launched an all-out investigation into the facts surrounding the case for Christianity," he launched into this skeptical journey in which he found ìhisî savior.

My plea to all is that since we all have been promised at least one gift from God, let us ALL allow the each other the freedom in Christ to exercise it in the manner that the Lord leads us.

We are all part of the body of Christ, and as
part(s) of the body of Christ we each have our God given way of communicating His message of love to others.

Iím so happy to have this book to give to a friend of mine that is agnostic at Christmas time!;-)) He says that the Bible is a great history book. He likes facts. This book is just for him. Some may not appreciate the way Lee chose to point to Christ in an investigative way as they never had the utter disbelief in God/Jesus that he did.

I really appreciate what Lee pointed out with his mathematical formula...

believe + receive = become.

In that formula is the haunting truth that when one ONLY believes, it is head belief. When one receives as his, that belief, it becomes heart belief. Then and only then do we become children of God. THAT IS A SOBERING THOUGHT!

Thank God for the power in changing lives to His glory.

Pointing to Jesus.......Maryann
Delstar
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 12:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann, I hope you don't mind that I am copying and pasting a portion of your post in an email to my daughter whom I drove away from Jesus by my legalistic approach to Christianity. She doesn't even make a pretense of worshiping the Lord and yet, from my own personal experience, I know that it is only when we come to the end of 'self' and become nothing at the foot of the Cross that Jesus can begin His work in us. My daughter does acknowledge that it is by believing that we are saved (she said that this was always a question for her while she was growing up....seems the Holy Spirit was working within her.) I guess in my heart I know that because she has made this profession, that she has salvation but I want her to know more of this Jesus and come to totally rely on His strength. Makes life so much easier and it also shines through us to others who may not know Him at all.

Jesus IS Enough
Max
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 4:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bless you Delstar, You have seen Jesus in
Maryann! This is more of a miracle by far than
anything Benny Hinn has ever done on TV!
Patti
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 8:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

STATISTICS:

"In Christ" (or its equivalents) occurs 293 times in the New Testament.

"In you" is always plural ("in y'all") and should be translated as "among
you." It occurs only about six times (depending upon which manuscript
tradition you are using).

"[Christ] In me" only occurs in Gal. 2:20 (as I remember).
Cas
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann,
Have you heard Lee Strobel has a new companion book to the Faith For Christ, called The Case For Faith. I am reading it now, its just as good as TCFC. CRI is selling them in 6packs for $20.
They are great books for sharing. Anyone interested can go to www.equip.org and hear prior radio shows interviewing Lee Strobel, he is so awesome!
~CAS~
Maryann
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Patti,

Good to have you back!:-) Hope all is going well with you and yours. I haven't answered your specific questions of a week ago as I thought I'd wait till you were less tied up. I have to leave town for the weekend, so may not get to your answer till next week. I'm looking forward to discussing your questions though;-))

As to your above post.

A thought popped into my head as far as the statistics of "In Christ, in you, in y'all, in me."

Gal. 2:20....I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

If it says only once in the Bible that Christ "lives in me," then I'm willing to believe that is as legitimate as God creating only one Adam and look at the population explosion that came from that "one" creation.

Things don't have to be said multiple times to have more meaning?? Again....just a thought;-)

Maryann
Max
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 1:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I [Christ Jesus] have given them [his
followers] the glory that you gave me, that they
may be one as we are one: I in them and you
[the Father] in me." NIV John 17:22-23.
Max
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Matthew 25:40ÝAnd the King shall answer and
say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch
as ye have done it unto one of the least of
these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Matthew 25:45ÝThen shall he answer them,
saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye
did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it
not to me.
Max
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if
indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if
anyone [Greek, singular] does not have the
Spirit of Christ, he [Greek, singular] does not
belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the
body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is
alive because of righteousness." --NASB
Romans 8:9-10.
Darrell
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." Col 1:26,27
Cindy
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 7:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann, Thanks for the review of Lee Strobel's book; I was given it by an "Adventist/Presbyterian" friend about a year ago...

Thinking about some of the above comments...

I really feel there can be a danger when we downplay the "head belief" and term this as "ONLY believing"!

To me, if we believe the Gospel FACT of Christ being crucified for our sins and His offering this FREE GIFT to us, this IS ENOUGH!

You stated above in regards to the formula "believe, receive, become": "In that formula is the haunting truth that when one ONLY believes, it is head belief. When one receives as his, that belief, it becomes heart belief. Then and only then do we become children of God."

I respectfully maintain that head belief is enough. Jesus says this to Martha in John 11:

"I am the resurrection and the life. he who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoevever lives and believes in Me shall never die."

He then asks this decisive question:

"Do you believe this?"

Saving faith CAN be simply believing facts!

Martha had to believe that what Jesus would give her eternal life; accepting that what He told her was true!

She gives this answer:

"Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world".

This is a matter of believing FACTS necessary for salvation! "Only believing" IS vital for our salvation!

Continued growth IN GRACE is preferable for both the believer's peace and their unbelieving acquaintances, so as not to put disgrace on the marvelous work of Christ....

And yet! to be at at the place of "only believing" is a wonderful place to be!!

Maybe my concern is with the term believe... If I believe, I accept the fact to be true.

Perhaps the separating it into "head" and "heart" is where I have a problem.

Yes, we pray this GOOD NEWS will grow more and more into our heart, but if we make such a distinction, it seems we have two classes of Christians. A Christian is a Christian solely on belief on Christ's life, death, resurrection in their place!

Grace always,
Cindy
Maryann
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 11:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Cindy,

First!;-)) I must compliment you on your tone. Thank you so much for your example. I will make every effort to emulate your spirit;-)

Second!;-( I must admit that I sat back for a while and almost hit the delete on:

"In that formula is the haunting truth that when one ONLY believes, it is head belief. When one receives as his, that belief, it becomes heart belief. Then and only then do we become children of God."

Not because I didn't think I was scripturally based but because I knew I was going to be called on it. I figured, ìOh, what the heckî and got my umbrella ready for the ìfall out;-)!î

Keep in mind that Iím not like so many of my learned friends that have been educated in Biblical matters formally, so some of my thoughts come from a VERY SIMPLE thought process. Please bear with me in while I explain why I believe what I posted above;-)

To me, there is scriptural grounds for ìhead beliefî and ìheart belief.î Letís look at James 2:14-26Ö..14ÖWhat good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him? 15ÖSuppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16ÖIf one of you say to him, ìGo, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,î but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17ÖIn the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18ÖBut someone will say, ìYou have faith, I have deeds.î Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19ÖYou believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe and shudder. 20ÖYou foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22ÖYou see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23ÖAnd the scripture was fulfilled that says, ìAbraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,î and he was called Godís friend. 24ÖYou see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25ÖIn the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26ÖAs the body without the Spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.î

NowÖ..to me this is NOT putting me under the legalistic system of the law! It is simply telling me that the demons believe and if the a believer just has an un-received head belief, his faith is dead. ìBeliefî in the above verses that you quoted, are in the context to me, belief that was received from the heart.

Now letís look at another example of Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8 where it tells about him amazing all the people of Samaria with his sorcery. People really thought he was cool! Then Philip showed up. Verse 12ÖBut when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13ÖSimon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he sawÖÖÖ18Ö When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostlesí hands, he offered them money 19Öand said, ìGive me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.î 20ÖPeter answered: ìMay your money perish with you,{you and your money go to hell} because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21ÖYou have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before GodÖÖ.

To me, that means that Simon had believed what his eyeballs in his head saw and after they got done bugging out, he believed in God and was baptized. Peter then chewed him out for not having a heart that was right before God.

Letís look at one more. Luke 18:18-22. 18ÖA certain ruler asked Him, ìGood teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?î 19ÖîWhy do you call me good?î Jesus answered. ìNo one is good ñ except God alone. 20ÖYou know the commandments: ëDo not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.í 21ÖîAll these I have kept since I was a boy,î he said. 22ÖWhen Jesus heard this, He said to him, ìYou still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.î

To me, this means that this rich young ruler believed yet it was only with his head. You might say he had a change of head but not a change of heart.

I will just suppose that Judas must have believed in Jesus all those 3 ‡ years. His belief, Iím assuming was a head belief. His head believed that Jesus was the Son of God that was going to be the big Chief in the big war to make Israel the big guns of the world. Had he had a heart belief, do you suppose he would have had the ìheartî to rat on Jesus?

What about Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 4 and 5? They seem to be lumped in with the ìbelieversî that shared their possessions with the needy. If they believed in their hearts, do you suppose they would have held back that money? (That, in my opinion, was more about principle than money.)
I appreciate your concern about the qualifications of "believe." I truly believe that when the Bible says in a jillion places that all you must do to be saved is believe, it means to believe with all your body, soul and spirit (and of course heart.)

You said:

"Perhaps the separating it into "head" and "heart" is where I have a problem."

Can you, in the light of how I explained my understanding, state a different way so as not to sound soooooooo?;-)

Did any of this make sense to you? Pleeeze, letís continue this discussion;-))

Pointing to Jesus who is not only our Savior but also our guideÖÖMaryann

P.S. I had to get some caffeine to stay awake to finish this. It was neither Folger's nor Maxwell House! It was a sissy soup called Nescafe with all the sugar, cream and flavor already added;-))!
Patti
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 4:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are right, Cindy.
There is no such biblical dichotomy as "head-saved, heart-saved."
There is no "formula" for salvation. Only trusting on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thank you.
Max
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 7:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like the way you are using Scripture, Maryann.
You are doing -- and quite well -- what is
known in biblical studies as "exegesis," which
is reading out of Scripture what is really there.

"Exegesis" is opposed to "eisegesis," which
is reading into Scripture what isn't there.

Exegesis says there IS a biblical dichotomy
between "head faith" and "heart faith," and you
have proved it by Scripture alone.

In view of your excellent Bible study, the
burden of proof is now on those who would
insist otherwise.

To say that Simon, for example, had a true
"heart faith," rather than just a "head faith," is
just simply to contradict Scripture. For
Scripture alone is absolutely clear that Simon
was going to hell.
Max
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I notice that Maryann used the terms "head
belief" and "heart belief." She did not use the
terms "head saved" and "heart saved."

There's a profound difference.

Therefore, one cannot disprove her exegetical
study by switching from terms she did use to
those she didn't.
Richardjr
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Please allow me to muddy the water a little. If we take the Biblical view of the nature of man, we find that belief affects the total person, head, heart, body, and their social nature. The second a person believes his whole nature is touched. Are we not justified by faith alone, sanctified by faith that works through love, and finally glorified by faith alone.
Max
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 6:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Certainly, Richard, but I don't understand how
that view muddies the waters. As you know,
nobody believes with his heart when thought
of as the hollow muscular pump of the
circulatory system. And as you also know, in
Scripture "heart" refers to the emotional or
moral nature as distinguished from the
intellectual.

Thus, in James, the devils can "believe"
because their heart is not "in it," only their cold,
grim intellectual knowledge.
Patti
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max, you make me so tired. Why do you struggle so against salvation by the infinite mercy of God alone? I was wondering when you were going to get around to using that "Devils believe and tremble" text. I knew it was only a matter of time. You are following the SDA schema to a "T" so far. Here is something I wrote to SDAs on another board who were claiming the same "gospel" that you are:

It seems that whenever one tries to present the Gospel of Justification by faith in the life and death of Jesus Christ alone, that someone (law mongers, such as SDAs and RCs) inevitably pulls out two snippets of texts from James. One is: "Faith without works is dead." The other is that "demons believe and tremble." These two texts have been used against the Protestant belief of salvation by grace through faith alone all the way back to the Reformation. Even today, when discussing justification by faith with a Catholic scholar, one will will find that he will eventually get around to either or both of these texts. Needless to say, they are only snippets, not entire verses, and one SELDOM hears the "rest of the story," or the rest of the chapter, as it were. Let us look at the 'Demons believe' argument.

This is a weak and ridiculous argument against the mulitude of the texts in the Scriptures that state that whoever believes on Jesus Christ will be saved. It is based solely upon a snippet from a single obscure text. The people who use it as a defense against "faith only" inevitably fail to quote the entire verse:

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

In the first place, please notice that this text says nothing about believing in or on the Lord Jesus Christ. It says "you believe that there is one God," as opposed to multiple gods. So do the Jews, BTW. And the Muslims. And, evidently, the demons do also. There is no salvation in believing that there is only one God.

Look at the thief on the cross to see an example of saving faith in Christ. Legalists have a hard time explaining this one, as the thief had only a few moments of sanctification to credit unto the judgment.

Luke 23:39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him:
"Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said,
"since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But
this man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in
paradise."


This man professed faith in Jesus Christ and was saved. Did he merely
acknowledge that Jesus existed?
Hardly. Notice the elements of the thief's
confession:
1. He recognized and acknowledged his own sinfulness. "We are punished
justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve."
2. He recognized and acknowledged the sinlessness and perfection of Christ.
"But this man has done nothing wrong."
3. He expressed his complete faith in the saving power of Christ. "Jesus,
remember me when you come into your kingdom."

To use the argument that demons "believe" just as those who are saved "believe" one would have to answer "yes" to the following questions:

Do demons recognize their own sinfulness and worthiness of death?

Do they acknowledge the sinless perfection of the Lamb of God?

Do they express positive faith in the Lord's kingdom (Notice the man said "when you come into Your kingdom" and not "IF you come into your kingdom.")?

I think it is a very far stretch of the imagination and of scripture if one
should answer affirmatively.

Here is a description of faith in Jesus Christ:

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who
are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world
held accountable to God.
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing
the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all
who believe.
There is no difference,

23 for all have sinned and (continue to) fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came
by Christ Jesus
.
25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his
blood
. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he
had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--
26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be
just
AND the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus
.
27 Where, then, is boasting? (Or, forgive me if I add, witnessing to one's own changed life.) It is excluded. On what principle? On that of
observing the law? No, but on that of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing
the law
.

This is the Gospel. This is the grace of God in Jesus Christ. This is salvation by believing in Jesus Christ. We are saved by the work of Jesus Christ FOR US. When we believe in Him, His death and His perfect life is credited to us, and we stand as perfectly sinless before God. "This is life eternal, that they know You and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent." Jesus has paid the full price for our salvation. There is nothing of positive value that we can add to it. He asks us only to trust in Him, that He will keep His promises to us and save us. Why is it so hard to take Him at His word? Why is it so hard to believe?
Maryann
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Patti,

Well, I just had to take a peek at the forum while in Nevada.

As in the discussion a few weeks ago that I felt you were at odds with me, while after Max, you have done it again???

You said:

"Max, you make me so tired. Why do you struggle so against salvation
by the infinite mercy of God alone? I was wondering when you were
going to get around to using that "Devils believe and tremble" text. I
knew it was only a matter of time. You are following the SDA schema
to a "T" so far. Here is something I wrote to SDAs on another board
who were claiming the same "gospel" that you are:"

PATTI, I WAS THE ONE THAT USED THAT! I distinctly used the "Devils believe and tremble" in the Nov. 2, 11:37 pm, NOT MAX! I'm the one that is "following the SDA schema to a "T" so far!"

I'll be happy to discuss that with you when I get back to Calif.

We are all Christians here! We are all part of the body!! Could we please discuss these differences in a way that we are not appearing to tear the body parts from the body?? I will also say, if the discussion doesn't have Christian love to it, DON'T POST IT!!!! I'm serious, there are to many people adversely affected when the discussion lacks love!

I have taken part in discussions and not had an attitude of love! I'm sorry I took part in them! And I have NO desire to get involved with that kind of discussion again!

I truly am looking forward to getting back with you later and hope that we can understand each other.

Looking to Jesus.....Maryann
Max
Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 12:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Any view that contradicts Scripture alone is
false on the face of it.

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