| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
At least that's what the NIV Study Bible text note to Revelation 12:17 says. Are all those Bible scholars wrong? If so, how do you interpret Revelation 1:2, Revelation 1:9, and Revelation 19:10? These are the texts that the God-fearing Bible scholars say proves that "the testimony of Jesus" is the everlasting gospel. Do you say otherwise? And if so, using the Bible and the Bible only, on what grounds? | ||
| Questioner |
Dear Friend: We ought not to go by someone's notes when interpreting the Scriptures. The Bible student should always allow the Bible to interpret itself, while praying for the Holy Spirit's guidance. Let's look at the following texts you mentioned. (I use the ASV and the KJV because that's all I have on disk.) Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. ASV Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. KJV Revelation 1:2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. ASV Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. KJV Revelation 1:9 I John, your brother, who share with you in Jesus the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. ASV Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. KJV Revelation 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. ASV Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. KJV It would appear that so far, without delving into the original languages, we see that the important term seems to be "the testimony of Jesus". Interestingly enough, the final text seems to show a complete agreement between the two versions. I believe from these texts that the Bible is simply saying that the way Jesus may speak to people is through the utterances of the prophets. The term "testimony" means pretty much what we think it means. It means to stand up and tell the truth. It may also indicate the Decalogue, or the solemn declaration of a witness, or the public profession of religious experience. "Spirit of prophesy" would seem to indicate that which has to do with a driving force which prophecies or tells of the future. In olden times the prophets often gave a choice of blessing or curse because a warning was given that the time had come to decide who to follow. The same sort of prophetic utterance could be expected by this spiritual direction in our day as well. Further, the implication is clear that we ought to pay attention to what prophets say and not do to them what Jesus said the Jews had done to all those that God had sent before. Surely they come to testify for Jesus and about, or of, Him. Many suppose because the Bible particularly mentions that there will arise false prophets, that there will not be any true prophets in the last days. But surely, if the Spirit has spoken through prophets before Jesus day, He would do so again. The mistake that is made is that many forget that it was a forgone conclusion that God would send prophets as necessary and He never indicated that He would stop doing so. Therefore, we need to test the spirits and find out who is and who isn't a true prophet. So to be correct, the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy, and not the gospel or any one person. | ||
| Breezy |
Questioner, I really believe you were sent to this forum by God to refute some of the false conclusions some have come to. Your testimony has the ring of truth and I can see the glint of the sword even now. Praise God you are here at this time. I will be reading with interest. You can do much better what I have lacked the words to do. Thank you. God bless, Wendy | ||
| Debbie |
The question is: How do you define "The Spirit of Prophecy" using the Bible and the Bible Only? And how do you come to the conclusion that Ellen G. White's writings represent "The Spirit of Prophecy" using the Bible and the Bible Only? Living in Freedom, Debbie | ||
| Questioner |
Debbie, Now you are asking a former SDA to prove something for the SDAs. You sure put me in a strange position. It isn't my place to say what they believe any longer. However, perhaps I can tell you as I understood it to be. I guess the first place I'd start is with the concept of the "Spirit of Prophesy". Some like to capitalize it, thereby personifying it. I'm sure that's fine. In that case one would say that the term directly indicates the Holy Spirit and His ability to tell His spokespersons all about future events. I suppose that most people would agree with that. But let's suppose that it is all lower case letters. In that case the phrase would most likely indicate the gift of prophesy. This is one of the gifts of the Spirit, so in either case it would seem that the source is the same. In response to your next point, wouldn't you agree that the test as to who is or is not a true prophet would be whether or not they properly represent the Scriptures? In other words, I believe that the SDA church thinks that a person who claims to be a prophet and consumes alcoholic beverages, for instance, would not be following the Biblical commands regarding the body temple, and therefore fails that test. Again, most students of the Word would probably agree with that. I personally think that one of the real good tests is whether or not a prophet breathes while in vision. Evidently Daniel didn't and that couldn't be duplicated by the devil, since only God can sustain life. Pretty good, eh? That's one the other side sure can't beat. But I prefer to think that the best test has to be whether they are exactly (and I do mean "exactly") accurate with regard to Scripture. There is no room for error here. And this is where it gets sticky. The problem is that there is a fine line between judging and being a fruit inspector. One is pointing the finger and the other is a private consideration. I prefer to do the latter, as I think it is the most Christian. I then have to be extremely careful lest I use a false standard; my imperfect understanding of the doctrine in question. I like to think that God wouldn't leave us in the last days without one or two prophets. But you be the judge. I don't know how well I expressed myself, but did this help? | ||
| Breezy |
Questioner, You have made a very good point. Some people use their understanding of scripture to claim that Ellen was a false prophet because she does not follow what they believe to be the true interpretation of scripture. What I have always wondered is, If they are wrong about their interpretation of scripture and Ellen is right, then she would be in accordance with God's word and therefore not a false prophet. I know these are run on sentences but these discussions tonight have given me a migraine and I am having a hard time focusing. I agree wholeheartedly that God is not going to leave us without prophets. I have not been convinced that Ellen is a false prophet by the evidence presented to me. So much is based on hearsay and other people's interpretation of what she said, thought, and wrote. Their judgements of her motivations. I can't help thinking that this is wrong. What do you think. I really feel like you think on the same level I do and would appreciate your input. Thanks, Wendy | ||
| Colleentinker |
Jesus said that deceptions would be so subtle and clever that "if it were possible" even the very elect would be deceived. The one thing we can do is to read the Bibleóincluding the New Testamentó while asking God to send the Holy Spirit to us to reveal truth and to help us read without preset ideas. The Bible has given us tests of true and false prophets, and Jesus also said we would know them by their fruits. Without our willingness to be open to Jesus and to the truth he wants to teach us, we will not be able to discern truth from error. Following Jesus into truth requires that we be willing to go wherever he leads, even if that place is uncomfortable or upsetting. It's never easy to discover the unpleasant truths about ourselves or our iconsóand we all have those unlpleasant truths! But Jesus has promised never to leave us or forsake us. He promised us the Holy Spiritówith which we are sealed!óand we can embrace the truth with joy and grace because Jesus is in the truth. Hearsay and third-party opinions are not necessarily truth. Wendy is right about that. But Jesus is Truth, and we can trust what he shows us. He might ask us to be willing to give up everything we know and loveóPaul certainly kept no vestige of his former life as a member of the Sanhedrinóbut what God gives is so much greater than what we have to leave. We can know truth. The Holy Spirit, the One who inspired the Bible, will also enlighten us as we read it. We just have to read it with an honest desire for truth. God honors that desire! I praise God for giving me Himself. His love is "better than life", as the song says. I Cor. 13 says that where there is prophecy, it will cease; where there are tongues, they will be still. But Love is eternal. No prophecy, false or true, should be in the center of our vision. Jesus alone holds that position! Colleen | ||
| Billthompson |
Just one little observation. In my experience, people who have a firm, Bible based assurance of their own salvation are secure in their relationship with Christ and actively seeking to bring other lost souls to Christ. On the other hand, people who lack assurance and fear that they could lose their salvation through some sort of change in the plan of salvation, special end time tests, etc. (which Galatians 1:6-8 says does not happen), these are the people who are anxious to find a last days prophet to guide them in the last days. Please understand that when the Bible refers to the "last days" it is referring to everything after the cross. We have been in the "last days" since that time. The Gospel (plan of salvation) was given to us through "last days" prophets and is clearly recorded in the Bible in books like Romans, Galatians and Hebrews. Do not look for additional "last days" prophets until you have a firm assurance of salvation which can be gained through a thorough, prayerful reading of these "last day" prophetic writings. Once you have this firm assurance of your salvation gained from the "last days" prophets recorded in the New Testament, then and only then will you be able to adequately evaluate prophetic claims made by others in our day. Any prophetic voice which goes against the clear Gospel message of the New Testament is a false prophet. I have staked my eternal destiny in the solid rock of the "last day" prophetic writings contained in God's written Word, The Bible. I, thus have no desire to seriously consider the teachings of Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, L. Ron Hubbard, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Ellen White or anyone else who would have me doubt my salvation or admonish me not to say I am saved or even feel saved when the Bible clearly teaches the opposite (1 John 5:13). I had someone write me in private and say that it is arrogant to say "I am saved". It is indeed if we save ourselves, but since it is all about what Christ did and not at all about what I have done, then saying "I am saved" is not arrogant at all. It is an aknowlegement of what a Gracious. loving Savior has done for a sinner like me. A Sinner Saved By Grace, Bill Thompson | ||
| Billthompson |
Questioner, I tell you what. I'll use your criteria for evaluating a prophet. You said we should look at the "fruit" of that prophets work. Where Ellen G. White is concerned, I am sure there are many who would list all sorts of positive fruits of her ministry, clean healthy lifestyle, etc. Of course our Mormon friends could make hold up very similar "fruit" and some of their "fruit" might even be more impressive Ellen's, if lifestyle is the only area observed. The clearest, most prominant message in the New Testament (and Old Testament alike once you understand the New) is Christ's substitutionary death on the cross to pay our sin debt in full, the plan of salvation, also commonly know as the Gospel Message...truly good news! Now let's look at the fruit of Ellen's work in that regard. What I see is a large denomination about the same size as that of the Mormons, which like the Mormons has a lack of understanding about the Gospel Message. Many a faithful SDA goes to their grave without ever having any assurance of their own salvation. Her endorsement of the IJ which directly opposes the Gospel is bad fruit. This is the fruit of her ministry. Regardless of what other positive "fruit" you can hold up a ministry that is not clear on the most basic of all Christian teaching, the plan of salvation, this is a ministry with "rotten fruit" and the "prophet" that propogated this fruit is not one I'll follow. Bill Thompson | ||
| Breezy |
Bill, Do you know that I have read more than just the place where Ellen said we shouldn't say we are saved. I have read further and more extensively than just that phrase, and she wholeheartedly agrees with you. What she was referring to in that phrase was counting on ourselves for salvation and not saying we are saved-meaning our own good works. If you take the balance of her writings they prove out that she did believe and firmly expounded that we CAN have the assurance of salvation. It is sad and disappointing that some(not referring to you) have not studied the full compliment of her works and do not get the whole message of salvation. But it is not her fault that people only pick and choose what they want to read. If you take that phrase on its own, of course you will have a lack of assurance. How sad. But if one studies diligently then they will realize they can say "I am saved." Furthermore, Ellen herself said "if you had studied the scriptures as you should you would not need my writings." Her position was to direct people to the Bible. Unfortunately, some, perhaps many, have taken to living by her writings alone and ignoring the Bible. This I am sure would have horrified her. Sad. Wendy | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Bill! You wrote: The clearest, most prominant message in the New Testament (and Old Testament alike once you understand the New) is Christ's substitutionary death on the cross to pay our sin debt in full, the plan of salvation, also commonly know as the Gospel Message...truly good news! Patti: Amen! This is the great breakthrough that Martin Luther found which started the entire Reformation: Justification by faith ALONE. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes ñ Jews first and also Gentiles. 17 This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life." Romans 4:4 Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due. 5 But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness. 6 So also David speaks of the blessedness of those to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the one against whom the Lord will not reckon sin." Romans 5:8 But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us. 9 Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. 11 But more than that, we even boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. TTYS, Bill! PS Mike says hello! Patti | ||
| Breezy |
Patti, Did you know that when Luther found out that people were using his JBF as an excuse to avoid keeping the law, he was horrified? Read his later works and you will find that he said if he had known it would turn out like this he never would have nailed the theses to the door. Wendy | ||
| Patti |
Thanks, Wendy. Can you give a specific reference on that quote? I can give you more JBF from the Scriptures. The Bible is full of it, you know, because it is the meaning behind all of the Scriptures. Without the saving act of Jesus Christ in our behalf, the Bible is only a poor history of the failures of the Jewish people. | ||
| Breezy |
Patti, very true. will get back to you on that quote. I'm still looking for the one I promised someone weeks back. I read so many websites in such a short time I got loopy. will do my best though even if I have to go to the library to look up his books. Wendy | ||
| Max |
A thought just hit me like a thunderbolt! The text of this thread is, "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Through prayer and Bible study we in FAF have come to know this verse does not mean that the testimony of Jesus is the testimony of Ellen G. White. But I, for one, merely left it there. That was enough. Then. But no longer. Now I see more. Here's what: 1. The testimony of Jesus = the gospel. 2. The spirit of prophecy = the Holy Spirit speaking through those who preach the gospel. 3. Therefore -- and this is what's new to me -- the gospel IS the Holy Spirit in us who believe with all our hearts. The gospel IS the Holy Spirit! The two are one indivisible unit. Therefore, when we testify to Jesus (preach the gospel) we are doing so because, and only because, our lives are being TRANSFORMED by the Holy Spirit! WANT FREEDOM, MY DEAR ADVENTIST FRIENDS? WANT TO COME OUT OF THE WILDERNESS? WANT TO ENTER THE LAND OF PROMISE? NIV 2 Corinthians 3:13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being TRANSFORMED into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Max, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you, Max. (And you may post over 30 posts in a row to show your position...:-)))) And yet, I feel I must exalt the Gospel of Christ alone. He is my Hope, my Motivation, Joy, and Strength! To me, the Gospel is the Life, Death, and Resurrection of JESUS!! It is CHRIST CRUCIFED FOR ME!! A totally, outside of me, objective Righteousness that ONLY JESUS accomplished! It is BY FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE! Yes, "testimony of Jesus" is the good news of Christ's FINISHED WORK IN OUR BEHALF and it is the the spirit, the underlying energy, behind all true prophecy. Yes, the Holy Spirit is promised and is given to those who believe this wondrous good news, but,... the Holy Spirit is NOT the Gospel! The gospel is NOT "the Holy Spirit in us who believe with all our hearts" as you posted above. Please know I send this with affection, even though we don't see things the same way... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Dan_2 |
For whatever it's worth, when I was an Adventist pastor (and a sincere one at that), I was troubled for years with the fact that if God had truly given "people" a prophet (Ellen White), why is it that only SDA's see her as a prophet? She is only a prophet for Adventist's or people becoming Adventist. So the 98% if the rest of Christianity is left "in the dark." That is (according to SDA theology) until the "end times." And speaking of "fruit" (as some of you have spoken well of), when I looked at the fruit of the Adventist message, I saw year after year, legalistic, discouraged, carrying a heavy yoke Adventist people. Not everyone of course, but the fast majority. And I had been with Adventist all over this country. Not to mention the "fruit" of their Sabbath keeping. Adventist across the board "break" their Sabbath. The fast majority of Adventist in all my churches would break the Sabbath when no one was looking. And since I left the denomination, I see them (and I mean elders, church leaders, etc.) at the movies, shopping malls, etc. People have no idea the conflict the average SDA has with the Sabbath. And SDA teens/college students? Their board and not keeping it across the board. I'm not judging them, I just feel sorry for SDA's who try to uphold a belief that few believe in practice! That's the kind of fruit their theology produces that you won't find anywhere else. It's sad. The "yoke of bondage" (I mentioned earlier until I got carried away; sorry) is the legalism of the writings of EGW. Sure, she "wrote" some beautiful words concerning salvation, but most of those were even copied from other writers. And the "not breathing while in vision" thing? When I was at Andrews University, I guestion the Ellen White Research Center and later the Ellen White Estate (Washington D.C.) and they told me (and other students) that "there is no documented evidence to support that." I also asked about "holding the large Bible at arms length?" They told me (God as my judge) that there is no documentation to support that either. In frustration, I asked, "Why have you lead us to believe these things as proof of her being in vision?" God as my judge, I was told, "They just became beliefs over the years." I'm sorry to go on here, but I just feel this fire in me to address these issues. And hey, if someone wants EGW as their prophet, that's their choice. However, when people try to prove to others that she is a prophet and that the SDA Church is the only true church? Someone please say something (as you have). I find it interesting that a person can leave any denomination for another and not be seen "as lost." But leave the Mormans, JW's, or Adventism and you have "left the truth." You are shunned. I know, because I'm still the same Dan I was as an Adventist, yet one by one, all my Adventist friends have turned their backs on my friendship. I'm not bitter about that. Just thankful to be out from the bondage of Adventism. I'm lost in the site of my former SDA Church (they told me) and the Oregon Conference of SDA's, but not in the eyes of my God. Thank you for your thoughtful emails. I enjoy stopping by and reading your spiritual journeys! --Dan | ||
| Bruceh |
CINDY The Holy Spirit is given at the Same time you accept the Gospel. You cannot separate Salvation and the Holy Spirit. You cannot accept the Gospel and reject the Holy Spirit. Baptism = to go down into the water represents our death to sin and our own works. Comming out of the water represents the new Life that God gives us with His Spirit or the Holy Spirit. If you do not have the Spirit of God you are under the water and dead. Born Again = Our new Birth with the Spirit of God it is his Spirit that Gives us Life. The Gospel is what you stated but what you have to under stand is you cannot separate the Holy Spirit from the Gospel for you then Seperate the Life and Power of the Gospel. For it is the Spirit of God that gives us power and Life. Bruce Heinrich | ||
| Max |
Hi Cindy, How do you interpret 2 Corinthians 3:18 NIV? ^^And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who IS the Spirit.^^ | ||
| Max |
Dan, Oh, how I loved your post. How refreshing it is to meet someone, even if it is only an e-meeting, who shares a similar experience within and leaving SDAism. Yes, you're right straight: EGWism = gnosticism. Something only the "in group" -- "a peculiar people" -- possesses. It's pure and unadulterated gnosticism. Condemned everywhere in the Word of God, who is Christ Jesus, by the availability of salvation freely to all. For God so loved the WHOLE WORLD and all the people in it that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him might have eternal life and have it right NOW. In God's love for you, Max of the Cross |
