| Author | Message | ||
| Patti |
"No sin can separate us from him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." | ||
| Patti |
Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." | ||
| Max |
An amen from me for each of Patti's two posts above. | ||
| Richardjr |
Dear Max, I am always edified by your posts. You mentioned somewhere that you attended AU seminary in the mid sixties. Was this during the purge of Hilgert and others? I attended AU seminary from 75-77 and it was said that Kubo was the only one who escaped the purge. Is this true? When I was there the atmosphere was quite mellow. I heard that it changed quite rapidly with the speech of Ford at the Adventist Forum. Richardjr | ||
| Max |
Hi Richard, Yes, I attended SDA seminary (Barrien Springs, Michigan) from the fall of 64 to the fall of 66. That was the beginning of the purge (Hilgert, Weiss, Vick, Heppenstall, etc.). Kubo did not escape. All important teaching functions were removed from him, although he may have been allowed to teach some "mechanical" courses, such as library science. He was removed from the Seminary and was put into White Memorial Library on campus. I don't rmember what his job title was there. But he was never again allowed to teach doctrine or biblical studies to students of any sort. I was no longer in seminary when Ford made his famous speech at the AAF meeting at PUC. I was there and heard it, having come up from Mountain View, where I worked as an editor at Pacific Press. And so I can't speak to whether or not the atmosphere at Berrien Springs changed rapidly after it. I can speak to the almost psychotic paranoia that reigned in seminary my last quarter there, however. One little known fact: The President of the University -- who was perforce also President of the Seminary -- was Richard Hammill. In my opinion he "sold out" his own professors. He left AU and became a spokesperson for the GC, going from college to college and university to university intimidating people -- basically science and religion teachers -- into signing loyal oaths. After he retired he then REPUDIATED what he had forced others to sign upon pain of losing their employment. Dr. Hammill is dead now, so I don't know how appropriate it is to bring this up now. But he hurt a great many people, a great many, and insincerely so, for he himself didn't believe what he was forcing others to say they believed. I don't like to talk about this. Max | ||
| Richardjr |
Thanks Max, It is painful for me to. You are right about Kubo. He was the librarian for the seminary portion of the library when i was there. I took intermediate Greek from him in the fall of 75. I guess they allowed him to teach Greek since that would be mechanical. When I resigned from the Adventist minstry in 82 I remember when Dr. Hamill came to visit me in March of 83 in my home in Olympia, WA. My dad had asked him to see me and I remember even though he seemed like a very nice man he could offer no compelling reason to get back into the ministry. I didn't realize he went around getting people to sign loyalty oaths. It sounds like what happened in some conferences in the early eighties. Richardjr | ||
| Darrell |
I just got the latest "Good News Unlimited" magazine, and read a short article based on an introduction that Ray Cottrell made for Des Ford earlier this year. Cottrell says that a week or two before Ford's famous speech at PUC, Cottrell made a similiar presentation on the same topic, with many of the same conclusions, to an AAF meeting at Andrews. The audience at PUC for Ford's presentation included two retired administrators and a retired paster who complained to the church administration, while the audience at Andrews did not complain, so Ford ended up out while Cottrell did not. Cottrell ends the story by saying that he has often wondered how things would have been if he and Ford had spoken at opposite places. | ||
| Richardjr |
Darrell, Interesting observation. But wasn't the difference due more to the fact that Cottrell was retired while Ford was still working. And also the fact that the GC had asked Ford to move from Australia to the u.s. | ||
| Max |
LUTHER SAYS THAT GOOD WORKS: 1. ARE ìTRULY GREAT,î 2. REQUIRE "LABAOR AND EFFORT," AND 2. CANNOT BE DONE OR ATTEMPTED OR EVEN CONCEIVED OF IN BELIEVERíS OWN STRENGTH. Now, if no other work were commanded but chastity alone, we would all have enough to do with this one; so perilous and raging a vice is unchastity. It rages in all our members: in the thoughts of our hearts, in the seeing of our eyes, in the hearing of our ears, in the words of our mouth, in the works of our hands and feet and all our body. TO CONTROL ALL THESE REQUIRES LABOR AND EFFORT; AND THUS THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD TEACH US HOW TRULY GREAT GOOD WORKS ARE, NAY, THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO US OF OUR OWN STRENGTH TO CONCEIVE A GOOD WORK, TO SAY NOTHING OF ATTEMPTING OR DOING IT. St. Augustine says, that among all the conflicts of the Christian the conflict of chastity is the hardest, for the one reason alone, that it continues daily without ceasing, and chastity seldom prevails. This all the saints have wept over and lamented, as St. Paul does, Romans vii: "I find in me, that is in my flesh, no good thing." ____________________________________ _A treatise on Good Works together with the Letter of Dedication_ by Dr. Martin Luther, 1520, published in: _Works of Martin Luther_ Adolph Spaeth, L.D. Reed, Henry Eyster Jacobs, et Al., Trans. & Eds. (Philadelphia: A. J. Holman Company, 1915), Vol. 1, pp. 173-285. This text was converted to ascii format for Project Wittenberg by Allen Mulvey and is in the public domain. You may freely distribute, copy or print this text. Please direct any comments or suggestions to: Rev. Robert E. Smith of the Walther Library at Concordia Theological Seminary. E-mail: CFWLibrary@CRF.CUIS.EDU Surface Mail: 6600 N. Clinton St., Ft. Wayne, IN 46825 USA Phone: (219) 481-2123 Fax: (219) 481-2126 ____________________________________ | ||
| Max |
LUTHER: FAITH IS THE CHIEF GOOD WORK I have wished to show how in all good works we should practice and make use of faith, and let faith be the chief work. If God permit, I will treat at another time of the Faith itself -- how we are daily to pray or recite it. --Martin Luther, from his Dedication chapter in A Treatise on Good Works (same reference as above). | ||
| Cindy |
Max, Interesting posts from Martin Luther... I like that; "let FAITH be the chief work!" Faith is a CONFIDENCE IN JESUS! A trust--in that what He has proclaimed in His Life, Death and Resurrection--is TRUE! We have a 4 volume set of Martin Luther's sermons; over 1500 pages of them! I have not had as much time to read lately as I used to... An Adventist/Presbyterian friend gave them to us a few years ago. He also gave us all of Charles Spurgeon's sermons, as well as various other books. He is the one I've had on-going discussions with concerning the continuing validity of the seventh day (Sabbath) holiness. He's attended a Presbyterian church for 15 years, but still also attends the Adventist one... along with still believing the 7th day is set apart, still--as a special day of Rest since it was written in stone by God's own hand! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Denisegilmore |
"God," says he, (Luther), "has preserved this sacrament alone free from human traditions. God has said: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." This promise of God should be preferred before all the glory of works, all vows, all satisfactions, all indulgences, and all inventions of man. Now, upon this promise, if we receive it with faith, depends our whole salvation. If we believe, our hearts are strengthened by the Divine promise; and though the believer should be forsaken of all, this promise in which he believes will never forsake him. With it, he will resist the adversary who lies in wait for his soul. and be prepared to meet remorseless death, and stand before the judgment-seat of God. It will be his consolation in all his trials to say: God's promises never deceive; of their truth I received a pledge at my baptism; if God is for me, who shall be against me? Oh how rich is the Christian that has been baptized! Nothing can destroy him except he refuse to believe. Perhaps to what I have said on the necessity of faith, they will object to me the baptism of little children. But as the Word of God is mighty to change even the heart of a wicked man, who is however neither less deaf nor ignorant than a little child; in like manner also the prayers of the Church, to which all things are possible, change the little child, by the faith that it pleases God to pour into his heart, and thus purifies and renews it." After having thus explained the doctrine of baptism, Luther wields it as a weapon of offence against the papacy. In fact, if the Christian finds all his salvation in the renewal of his baptism by faith, what need has he of the Romish ordinances? "For this reason, I declare," says Luther, "that neither the pope, nor the bishop, nor any man whatsoever, has authority to impose the least thing on a Christian, unless it be with his own consent. All that is done without it is an act of tyranny. We are free as regards all men. The vow that we made at our baptism is sufficient of itself, and is more than we can ever fulfil. All other vows may therefore be abolished. Let every man who enters the priesthood or any religious order clearly understand, that the works of a monk or of a priest differ in no respect before God from those of a peasant who tills his fields, or of a woman who manages her house. God estimates all things by the standard of faith. And it often happens that the simple labour of a serving man or maiden is more acceptable to God than the fasts and works of a monk, because the latter are void of faith...Christians are God's true people, led captive to Babylon, where every thing has been taken from them which baptism hath given." Such were the weapons by which that religious revolution whose history we are retracing was effected. First, the necessity of faith was re-established, and then the reformers employed it as a weapon to dash to atoms every superstition. It is with this power of God, which removes mountians, that they attacked so many errors. These words of Luther, and many others like them, circulating through cities, convents, and rural districts, were the leaven that leavened the whole mass. Luther terminates this famous writing on the 'Captivity of Babylon' with these words: "I hear that new papal excommunications are about to be fabricated against me. If it be true, this present book must be considered as part of my future recantation. The remainder will soon follow, to prove my obedience; and the complete work will form, with Christ's aid, such a whole as Rome has never heard or seen the like." Page 197-198 History of the Reformation Daubigne | ||
| Max |
Thanks, Denise, for sharing. I learned from your Daubigne quote. | ||
| Max |
Morning Cindy, Martin Luther had the same problem Paul had. Both preached real grace. Real grace is radical. It DECLARES you sinless. There are no degrees of sinlessness. You are 100% sinless by faith alone in Christ alone, and 0% sinless in and of yourself. Forever. When Paul preached this real, radical grace, some people thought he meant they could "continue in sin that grace may abound." Paul called that slander. The same with Luther. When he recovered Paul's doctrine of real, radical grace some people thought he meant they could "continue in sin that grace may abound." The German princes were especially concerned, since they could envision the breakdown of morals in society. This is the reason Luther wrote his "Treatise on Good Works": To answer the slanderous charges and to assure the princes that good works follow faith. And that even faith itself is a good work, and the chief one at that. Thanks for noticing that. | ||
| Patti |
"And that even faith itself is a good work, and the chief one at that." Faith is not a "good work." Faith is a gift of God also, and because it is a fruit produced in sinful flesh, it is always imperfect. We do not even have the faith of a grain of mustard seed; our prayer is always, "Lord, I believe, help Thou mine unbelief." That is why reformed theologians are careful to delineate salvation by grace THROUGH faith, not BY faith. We cannot even believe without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit; we do not even know how to pray; the Spirit must intervene for us. Salvation is God's work. Here is yet another post I prepared for SDAs who claim that we cannot be saved without good works: There are many texts that show that we are saved at God's impetus and not on our own. John 6:37 However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. John 6:44 For people can't come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them from the dead. John 6:65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father." John 12:37 But despite all the miraculous signs he had done, most of the people did not believe in him. 12:38 This is exactly what Isaiah the prophet had predicted: "Lord, who has believed our message? To whom will the Lord reveal his saving power?" 12:39 But the people couldn't believe, for as Isaiah also said, 12:40 "The Lord has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts ñ so their eyes cannot see, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them." I Timothy 1:14 Oh, how kind and gracious the Lord was! He filled me completely with faith and the love of Christ Jesus. II Timothy 2:25 They should gently teach those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will believe the truth. Titus 3:3 Once we, too, were foolish and disobedient. We were misled by others and became slaves to many wicked desires and evil pleasures. Our lives were full of evil and envy. We hated others, and they hated us. 3:4 But then God our Savior showed us his kindness and love. 3:5 He saved us, not because of the good things we did, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins and gave us a new life through the Holy Spirit. 3:6 He generously poured out the Spirit upon us because of what Jesus Christ our Savior did. 3:7 He declared us not guilty because of his great kindness. And now we know that we will inherit eternal life. James 1:17 Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above, who created all heaven's lights. Unlike them, he never changes or casts shifting shadows. 1:18 In his goodness he chose to make us his own children by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his choice possession. Even our faith is a gift. Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. We don't even know how to pray. Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Salvation is a GIFT. Man cannot choose to GIFT himself. Every part of our salvation is God's work. He even gives us the faith to believe it when it is presented to us. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
I know that somewhere it is written that we are given 'the' measure of faith. Something to that effect. I'm sure someone on this forum knows what I'm referring to. But what about these 'by faith' passages in Hebrews 11? I really would like to know if it means what it says. By faith Abraham.....By faith Isaac....By faith Jacob. These texts say 'by faith'. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Why did I ask that question? I think I understand a possible answer. We are given 'the measure of faith', because of that measure of faith given we have our eyes open to disbelieve or believe. So it is 'by faith' that we are saved. We cannot be saved unless we have 'the measure of faith' and we choose to act on it by believing and that 'measure of faith is given to us by God'. So, because God gave us this 'measure of faith', and we believe that He did because the Bible tells us so, and because of this faith we can believe that Jesus is the Son of God. So God uses 'faith' that He bestows upon us, to save us. So, it is 'by faith' that we are saved. Faith always being a gift from God. The very measure of faith that God gave to us we put to use by believing. So, Faith, if acted on, is active and thereby we act on our faith and believe what God says. Believing is an action. Faith is the gift and we have a choice of whether to act upon it by believing or choose not to believe. So believing is an action we chose over disbelieving, caused by the faith that was given us by God and by using that measure of faith we are saved by that faith in active believing. What do you suppose would have happened to Abraham if having been given 'the measure of faith', he still chose not to believe God? Personally, I think that all people are given 'the measure of faith'. But how many choose not to believe? God put His laws into our minds and hearts thus everyone knows there is a God. But not everyone choses to believe. Yet all have the measure of faith. What's missing? Just my rambling thoughts...in writing no less. I would probably best serve myself and others by staying out of this one.... God Bless, Denise | ||
| Max |
^^Let faith be the chief work.^^ --Martin Luther, "Dedication," _A treatise on Good Works together with the Letter of Dedication_ by Dr. Martin Luther, 1520, published in: _Works of Martin Luther_ Adolph Spaeth, L.D. Reed, Henry Eyster Jacobs, et Al., Trans. & Eds. (Philadelphia: A. J. Holman Company, 1915), Vol. 1, pp. 173-285. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Well, after having this go around and around in my little ole head I decided to use Scripture and break it down while I was at it. I only spent 5 minutes doing so but here are some Biblical results. See, I couldn't see what the difference was between 'by' faith vs 'through' faith. Also, it occurred to me that faith is believing. But to be sure I did a small amount of research. Romans 3:3: Faith=pistis, Believeth=pisteuo, unbelief=apista Romans 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God by faith (pistis) of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe (pisteuo): for there is no difference." Romans 3:25 uses 'through' faith (pistis) Romans 3:30 uses 'by' faith (pistis) Romans 3:31 uses 'through' faith (pistis) Romans 3:26 uses 'which believeth' (pistis) Romans 3:28 uses 'by' faith (pistis) Luke 1:45 uses 'believed' (pisteuo) It appears that 'by' faith or 'through' faith are both used. It appears 'believeth' means the same thing as 'faith' (pistis) So what is the deal here? Am I missing something? I realize I was rambling in thought in a prior post but this evidence given is evidence I would cling to. In conclusion, Faith/Belief is our chief work. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Correction to above post: Believeth=pistis (same word is used for faith) Believed=pisteuo |
