| Author | Message | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
Jesus told the disciples in John 16:7, "It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." The verse in John 20:22 where Jesus breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy SpiritÖ" is often interpreted as Jesus promising the Pentecost outpouring. He has plainly stated that the Counselor cannot come unless he goes away, and he's not gone yet. The Holy Spirit was with them before Pentecost, but he was not IN them. (John 14:17) I believe Jesus was promising/prophecying what would happen to them at Pentecost. When they received the Holy Spirit they would be connected with God and would "have the mind of Christ" (I Cor 2:16) and would be able to act as Christ's ambassadors. Lydell has an excellent point: God equips us for whatever he wants us to do at the point he wants us to do it. We are filled with the Holy Spirit when we accept Christ; he grants his gifts to us as needed for the rest of our lives! That does not equal a special, second, empowering baptism that we need to seek or plead for. If we say that we are saved and then need to receive a second Holy Spirit baptism that empowers us to do signs and wonders to confirm the gospel, we are preaching "another gospel" like Paul warned about in Galatians. II Peter 1:3 says, "His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness." The Bible clearly says that when we receive Christ we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. That is everything we need for life and godliness. From the point of our new birth onward, the Holy Spirit never stops working with us. He does with us what he will. God distributes the gifts to whomever he will. When we start focusing on needing Holy Spirit power instead of on loving and proclaiming Jesus Christ, we've shifted our focus away from the gospel. God is sovereign; he will do what he wants. If he wants a reformation, he will have one. He will sovereignly distribute whatever gifts are needed to accomplish his will. But the fact is that even if no one responded to his call, God could still effect a revival. Remember that Jesus said if the children didn't cry out in praise to him, the rocks would? God doesn't technically "need" us. He wants us, and he wants to live out his will through us. But his purposes are sovereign, and we really aren't necessary for God to accomplish his purposes. Jesus also taught that we could pray for the Holy Spirit. But that prayer is not a "second baptism". A second baptism is just not scriptural. The gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit, as opposed to an external but present Holy Spirit, is an absolute promise. But once we receive it, he is with us forever. We just have to be responsive to Him. Some of us will be asked to to things that are unnoticed in the background. Some of us will be asked to intercede for others. We can't anticipate the work God calls us to do. We have to wait for him to give it to us, and we must stay open and close to him so we can respond when the Holy Spirit instructs us. Colleen | ||
| BRUCE H |
---When we start focusing on needing Holy Spirit power instead of on loving and proclaiming Jesus Christ, we've shifted our focus away from the gospel.----- Love is the KEY, as John has said. BRUCE HEINRICH | ||
| Lydell |
Bruce, I would agree with your comment of wondering why it is such a big deal, or I would say, a point of controversy. When I was reading Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, I found that something kept popping into my mind. That was the arguments against what I was reading that I had been taught as a child in the Southern Baptist denomination. But, interestingly, there was something else that kept coming to mind as well. And that was snippets from all these missionary stories I had read when I was growing up. Also some things I had read in books like some of Cori Ten Boom's, for instance would come to mind. Gradually I had to, a bit grudgingly at first, admit that he was right. What he was saying was definitely scriptural. And also that I had, in fact, been seeing it happen all my life, tho never realizing it. So I guess I would say it was conciousness raising. To me it was just a matter of him pointing out that the Lord will do WHATEVER the Lord needs to do in a situation. It's not a big deal, it's just normal Christian life. | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
I agree, Lydell. God will do whatever he needs to do in a situation. I love how you put tható"It's not a big deal, it's just normal Christian life." Thanks! Colleen | ||
| Lydell |
The sad thing is that those just leaving the SDA's are almost completely unaware of what "normal Christian life" is. It does take us awhile to catch on, I'm afraid. But isn't it an incredibly blessed learning experience to walk with your eyes open and ready to see what He is willingly doing in folks lives! And it's far preferable to spending your day looking at yourself to see if you measure up to all that was spoken by EGW. | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
Yes!!! And you're right about those just leaving not knowing yet about "normal Christian life." I've just been contemplating recently how much my understanding of that life has changed and expanded over the last 18 months. But once we experience grace, the rest becomes possibleówe just have to be willing to move from the "milk', as Paul put it, to the "meat"! Colleen | ||
| Max=Jude |
Colleen, just want to second your highly discerning insight: ^^ But once we experience grace, the rest becomes possible -- we just have to be willing to move from the "milk', as Paul put it, to the "meat"! ^^ Real grace alone, Max=Jude | ||
| Bruce H |
---But once we experience grace, the rest becomes possiblewe just have to be willing to move from the "milk', as Paul put it, to the "meat"--- MEAT, sounds kind of funny being a Former Adventist doesnt it. Thank you Coleen. Bruce Heinrich Bh | ||
| Max |
Bruce, And MILK ought to sound funny, for most Adventists think it means drinking from a carton of milk from Stater Brothers. How dare Paul so indelicately refer to breastfeeding an infant? | ||
| Atpeacenow |
Most people do not know what it means to breastfeed an infant and gently wean her/him. They jump so fast to a bottle and/or food thus creating problems for the tiny infant. Never mind the tender, gentle, "listening to your baby" to see if he is ready to wean. Same as those who become Bible scholers. (Adventists) They jump to the meat without understanding the milk and cause problems for themselves and others. They get people into the "Church" with "truth" and not on the basis of being born again and what it means, Jesus, a relationship with him, you are a creep, a sinner, you must believe that Jesus died for you, He came to save you. I never learned in the Adventist Church that I was a sinner. I learned that I have the truth now. We didn't get people to believe in Jesus, we got them into the truth. I was baptized in Washington after going to some meetings and decided that I wanted to join, "the truth". 10 minutes before I was to be baptized the pastor said "Oh by the way, you must take your wedding ring off" And when I was up in front raising my hands to the doctrines, When they came to the SOP I had no idea what he was talking about. Later someone gave me a book called "The Adventist Home" I had no idea who EGW was. So much for milk and meat. | ||
| Pat Darnell |
F. F. Bruce (whom the SDAs quote when they want to, BTW.) says this "foundation" in your verses, this "milk", is the Jewish laws, OT, etc., which predicted the coming Messiah, but was not the "meat". The "meat", the "Substance," as we are told in Col 2, is Christ. He goes on to show that when those "rudiments" are considered one by one "it is remarkable how little in the list is distinctive of Christianity, for practically every item could have its place in a fairly orthodox Jewish community. Each of them, indeed, acquires a new significance in a Christian context; but the impression we get is that existing Jewish beliefs and practices were used as a foundation on which to build Christian truth." Alexander Nairne states: "It is significant that the points taken as representing the foundation of penitence and faith are all consistent with Judaism. Doctrines of washings - how unnatural are the attempts to explain this plural as referring to Christian baptism; imposition of hands, resurrection of dead, eternal judgement' - all this belonged to the creed of a Pharisaic Jew who accepted the whole of the Old Testament." And Bruce adds: "it belonged equally to the creed of a nonconformist Jew of Essene or comparable outlook." I submit, and will to my dying day, that Jesus Christ is the MEAT OF THE WORD. He is the "perfection" to which we "press on", both in admiring His own perfection, and in living by faith in the perfect robe with which He has covered us! DON't BE FOOLED! There is no higher learning, no higher living, than 'Looking unto Jesus, the Auther and PERFECTER of our FAITH!" He is the "I AM", the sum total of everything we need, He is THE MOST! Praise His Name! Pat :-) | ||
| Maryann |
Hi All, It was interesting to see how this thread developed! Anyway: In thinking about the Holy Spirit, I got to re-memorying my impression of the Holy Spirit as a kid. He was this impersonal floating "thing" that was everywhere to supposedly help those in need and verbally spank others. What has become evident lately is that He is NOT that impersonal "thing" of my SDA youth! It is rather clear that Jesus was a "warm fuzzy" type of person when on earth. If he was an intimate friend to many and also irresistible to many, doesn't it make sense that the Comforter/Helper He sent to us would also be the same? If we can get that impersonal floating "thing" out of our minds and in it's place put the picture of an Intimate and Irresistible powerful God, we might just quit resisting Him so much. When we realize how Intimate and Irresistible the Holy Spirit is, we can then be soooo much more responsive to His leading! WDYT? Upward and onward.....Maryann | ||
| Max |
If the above reference to F.F.Bruce's teaching is true, then Peter, the writer of Hebrews, and even Paul ALL starting out by teaching LEGALISM! And that CONTRARY to the great gospel commission that Christ gave them! Here are all the New Testament references to "milk": 1 Corinthians 3:2.ÝI gave you MILK, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 1 Corinthians 9:7.ÝWho serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the MILK? Hebrews 5:12.ÝIn fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need MILK, not solid food! Hebrews 5:13.ÝAnyone who lives on MILK, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 1 Peter 2:2.ÝLike newborn babies, crave pure spiritual MILK, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation. I can assure you, having studied F.F.Bruce at the graduate level, that this is a GROSSLY INCORRECT interpretation of this great Evangelical theologian! Max of the Cross | ||
| Colleentinker |
The Holy Spirit is a person. He is God himself, and he lives in the temple of the New Covenant--the hearts of the members of the Body of Christ. The Holy Spirit is who is at work in us and brings our souls to life in the new birth. It absolutely astsounds me that God's love for us is so great that he personally indwells us and makes us one with him. Because of him we can live in his peace and rest. I have to agree about the milk not being the law. When our FAF group studied 1 Corinthians we did some inductive study on "milk", and Hebrews makes clear what milk actually is. Hebrews 5:12 says that the Hebrews need someone to "teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk not solid food!" Then, in Hebrews 6:1-2, it defines those "elementary truths." Here's what it says: "Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment." I keep being amazed at how the word of God is truly a living, active thing that works in us and continually reveals new facets of truth and reality. I praise God for being sovereign and for loving us and drawing us to himself. Colleen | ||
| Cindy |
Max and all, I've been thinking these past few days about your question, Max, (posted on the thread "testimony of Jesus" back on November 6) about how to interpret: "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled face all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into His likesness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit". 2 Corinthians 3:17,18 I have loved this text, the liberty and joy expressed in it is so encouraging! The mystery of the Trinity is shown here with "the Lord is the Spirit" wording. I agree with you, Bruce, that we can't reject the Holy Spirit when we accept Christ. They come together as a gift! We have the whole God-head... and we have it ALL when we accept Jesus! As Colossians says; ..."the mystery of God, namely Christ, in whom are hidden ALL THE TREASURES OF WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE...' And yes, there is union of us with the Holy Spirit so that Christ mysteriously even lives within us and transforms us more and more into a "Christ-likeness..." I guess where I think we may have trouble is when we try to merge these views so much that we think that by having the Holy Spirit in us, then this is the Gospel message! I still feel the message of the objective Gospel is about JESUS' WORK on our behalf. "May I never boast except in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world". Galatians 6:14 I get uneasy when the Gospel is worded as it was a few days ago on that other thread: "the gospel IS the Holy Spirit in us who believe with all our hearts". I think this view can lead to some unhealthy thinking. The Gospel remains outside of us in the historical fact of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection for us! Of course, we hold this good news close to our hearts, and yet, Jesus' perfect life alone must be ever uplifted! Jesus is the salvation of God, He is the Gospel! The Holy Spirit is given to me to DO subjectively what Jesus has alreading DONE for me objectively. I think we need to keep DISTINCT the finished work of Christ, "the message of the Cross", and the EFFECT of hearing this glorious good news! I like some of the following quotes from Oswald Chambers: "Re-state to yourself what you believe, then do away with as much of it as possible, and get back to the bedrock of the Cross of Christ. In external history the Cross is an infinitesimal thing; from the Bible point of view it is of more importance than all the empires of the world". "If we get away from brooding on the tragedy of God upon the Cross in our preaching, it produces nothing. It does not convey the energy of God to man; it may be interesting, but it has no power. But preach the Cross, and the energy of God is let loose." "'Look unto Me'; pay attention to the objective Source and the subjective energy will be there. We lose power if we do not concentrate on the right thing. The EFFECT of the Cross is salvation, sanctification, healing, etc., but we are not to preach any of these, we are to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified...." "The proclaiming of JESUS will do its' own work. Concentrate on God's center in your preaching, and though your crowd may apparently pay no attention, they can never be the same again". Grace always, Cindy p.s. Max...I couldn't believe all the drive-up coffee espressos here in the Northwest; sure different from the East! | ||
| Max |
Morning, Cindy. Hope your coffee is good. (Folgers? Good? What am I saying?) I loved your post. I think we do still have a slight disagreement about the use of the term "testimony of Jesus" in Revelation. The phrase occurs five times in all Scripture, all occurrences in Revelation. Here they are: Revelation 1:2Ýwho testifies to everything he saw--that is, the word of God and the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9ÝI, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the TESTIMONY of Jesus. Revelation 12:17ÝThen the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's [Christís New Covenant] commandments and hold to the TESTIMONY of Jesus. Revelation 19:10ÝAt this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the TESTIMONY of Jesus. Worship God! For the TESTIMONY of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." The NIV 100+ biblical scholars agree that: 1. The ìtestimony of Jesusî is the gospel. 2. The term ìspiritî in the clause, ìthe testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy," means ìessence.î Thus the following is the correct interpretation of Revelation 12:17: ìThe gospel is the essence of prophecy.î In its New Testament context the term ìprophecyî refers not to New Testament prophecies, but to Old Testament prophecies of the coming Messiah: the Christ, Jesus of Nazareth. Therefore, the text means: The gospel is the very essence of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the coming Messiah Jesus Christ, God-Walking-on-Earth (Immanuel). Now if we believe that ìin him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodilyî (Colossians 2:9), then we have to believe that the person of the Holy Spirit was fully in Christ at all times, including his death on the cross, rest-in-death in the tomb, .and resurrection on Sunday morning. So when we talk about the objective reality, the ìalienî righteousness and sinlessness of Christ being declared ours, we ARE talking about the Holy Spirit, not to mention the Father. We ARE talking about all three persons of the godhead. (Yes, it was God who died!) I know that you agree with this, Cindy, since you quoted: "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled face all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into His likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit". 2 Corinthians 3:17,18 And so how does this differ from "the gospel IS the Holy Spirit in us who believe with all our hearts"? In other words, I believe that in the gospel the spiritual reality of God-in-Christ is BOTH objectively outside AND inside of us believers at the same time. It is another of those paradoxes, such as Jesus being both fully human and fully divine at the same time. What do you think? Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Cindy, I'm saying that when the alien, objective, outside-of-us righteousness / sinlessness of the sacrifice of God (all three persons) occurred, we WERE THEN reconciled. A person is NOT reconciled later, in AD 2000 say, when s/he accepts. Therefore the "message of reconciliation" (2 Corinthians 5:19) is not "accept what WILL be done," but rather "accept what HAS BEEN done." NIV Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we HAVE BEEN justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we HAVE GAINED access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God HAS POURED OUT his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. 6 You see, at just the right time, when we WERE still powerless, Christ DIED for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we WERE still sinners, Christ DIED for us. 9 Since we HAVE now BEEN justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we WERE God's enemies, we WERE reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, HAVING BEEN reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we HAVE now RECEIVED reconciliation. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
And Cindy, I'm aware that some make the case that nothing happens inside the believer when s/he accepts a historical event that happened 20 centuries ago. I believe that this case is mistaken and has no scriptural support whatsoever behind it. If you have supporting scriptural evidence, I'd love to see it. And I don't mean a long string of texts devoid of exogesis and full of emotionally laden eisegesis. Paul never used that mode of Scripture study, and neither did Luther. All I want is good, solid, Spirit-directed Bible study, and I don't think that's too much to ask. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Ps. And I fully agree with your posted quotes from Oswald Chambers. | ||
| Max |
On the other hand, Cindy, If you don't wish to continue the discussion on an exegetical basis I will understand and honor your wish. Your brother in Christ, Max of the Cross |
