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The Real Jude
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2000 - 8:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A couple of weeks ago following the Friday night Redlands FAF meeting, I had a dream. I am someone who is rarely aware of dreaming. (I used to say that I never dream but I've been corrected so many times that I'm careful how I phrase that now). I have no claims about this dream other than to say that it was very vivid and meaningful to me. When I shared it with some others from FAF, they encouraged me to post it on the website.

At the meeting, Steve had shared an experience he had while cave exploring when he slipped and found himself dangling by his harness. Our speaker had also spoken of the umbilical cord in an analogy of the Christian rebirth experience. I'm sure these images influenced the imagery of the dream I am about to relate here.

In my dream, it was as if I had wakened and was suddenly aware that I was dangling mid-air by a luminous golden cord or tether. I had a sense that it connected me to God, and as I looked around I saw that I was surrounded by a vast number of other people also suspended by golden tethers. As I looked longer, I realized that the darkness below us (something like being on a brightly lit stage and looking out into a darkened audience) held an ocean of people living in utter filth. Circling these people were large, frightening, malevolent guards.

I was horrified that there were people living in such degraded circumstances and I turned to speak to the person next to me. At once, I recognized he was an angel because he was larger and brighter than the others and was not connected to a cord. "We must help these people," I cried out out. "Why don't they have cords?" The angel explained that the people did not know about the cords because the cords existed in the spiritual realm and they did not have spiritual eyes. "The only way they can learn about the cords, is if you do down there personally and tell them," he told me. He knew I was frightened to go and reassured me that if I went, he would go with me for protection.

Impulsively, I said "Then let's go." No sooner than we arrived, we were under attack. Guards came from everywhere. My angel was fighting fiercely. I was trying to tell people about the golden cord but the interference from all the fighting was too distracting. I was distressed that my angel was taking such a beating. "How do we get out of here," I called out. "Just ask," he answered. "Tug on your cord."

Immediately we were lifted up and out of the fracas. I was so shaken. "What happened?" I asked. "You were very vulnerable," he replied. "The guards are in the spiritual realm. They can see your cord. If you go down without armor and weapons, you're just advertising 'Here I am. Come and get me.' It will be easier on both of us if you dress for battle in the future. The guards are less likely to attack if you're prepared to fight. They're interested in you, not me." "Then why don't YOU tell people about the golden cord?" I inquired. "Because," the angel answered, "I can't. I don't have a cord. I'm only here for your protection."

I was also curious to know whom I was to tell about the cord. Many of the people below were so disfugured that I assumed they were beyond help. I thought I should concentrate on those who appeared to be in better condition. "You can't go by appearances," the angel advised. "You must find the people who have still have a small flame in their hearts. They could be anyone."

I understood the small flame to be like a pilot light that could ignite into fire if given more fuel. "People who still have a small flame don't want to be here but they don't know the way out," he continued. "You must get close enough to others to detect the flickering warmth in those who have the tiny flame. If your cord is bright enough, they will sense your glow. In this way, you will recognize each other and they will be able to perceive that what you tell them about the cord is true."

For the first time, I noticed that the dangling cords had varying degrees of brightness. "How do you get a brighter cord?" I wondered. "You ask for more power," he replied. "See that man down there? His cord is so dim that he has not attracted a single soul. He goes down regularly but he doesn't accomplish much because the people can't sense what he is trying to tell them. The only effective way to get people out of that mess is to go down in full armor with a bright cord, and be willing to get close to people."

What he was telling me became very clear. I could not give people the lifeline. I could only get close enough that they sensed a lifeline existed. I could tell them that if they really wanted out, there were lifelines for everyone. All they had to do was believe the cords were there and ask for one. Then they would be lifted out of the darkness. The evil guards could not follow. They were confined to earth.

"How long must we attempt these rescues?" I want to know. The angel answered, "Until every person who wants out has had an opportunity to leave. God does not wish to leave anyone behind. When the rescues are completed, we can all stop hanging out here and go Home."
Debbie S
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2000 - 8:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints." (Ephesians 6:10-18)
Debbie S
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2000 - 8:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"For the Word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing sould and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)


"Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we dont use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed." (2 Corinthians 4:1-9)

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverence the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart." (Hebrews 12:1-4)
Debbie S
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2000 - 8:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:3-5)
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2000 - 9:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you and bless you, Real Jude and Debbie. I know that you support each other in Christ and together you make a powerful witness on this website. -Jude
Ericlandstrom
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2000 - 1:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jude

You'll have to forgive me about the following
post. It was written over two separate posts to
two people with different problems. However if you
do not know of these passages from the Bible as
yet, this is going to be real meat, if you study
the verses I guide you to! I felt it was relavent
considering the name of your post is spiritual
warfare. And you will never over come those dark
powers without what this post will guide you to so
here goes!

The following is a post I made to a friend about
where is it in the N.T. regarding not putting an
image before God. My pal Carol is also a Sabbath
keeper. While I give answer to that; all you need
to tie this in with Sabbath keeping is reading
Colossians 2 and Hebrews 4, and understanding 1
Corinthians 5:7. In a nutshell the Sabbath is our
rest right? But in the flesh can we ever have
rest? When can we really have rest? When we enter
into the kingdom of heaven. Hebrews 4 talks about
entering into a rest in the tabernacle of God.
Colossians 2 tells us let no man judge you by what
day you keep holy. 1 Cor, 5:7 tells us Jesus is
our Passover. What is the highest Sabbath? Right,
its the Passover So Jesus Christ Himself is our
place of rest. Where is that place? In the Spirit.
This is the "key" that was lost in Luke 11:52,
sometimes referred to as the "key of David".

So what is this "key"? Rev. 15:3 gives us a mondo
clue. It tells us the saints in heaven are doing
two things. Their singing the song of the Lamb
(Gospel) and the song of Moses. The song of Moses
is found in Deut. 32. You may want to come running
into it from the end of Deut. chapter 31. Anyway,
it tells us a couple of things. What is going to
happen to the Jews and also to seek refuge in the
Spirit. Now Moses also wrote Psalm 90 which being
a song, teaches us what is our dwelling place. We
don't know who wrote Psalm 91, but it "fits". It
urges us to dwell in a secret place. Well it's not
secret to the believer! Living in the Spirit.
Worshiping in the Spirit. The Spirit is our
refuge, our rest! This may sound fantastic, but
trust me if you read all the verses I've given you
with a submissive heart to God in consideration to
Him the Bible will explode it's mysteries onto
you!

Anyway, reading my post to my buddy Carol below
ought to give you the depth needed to really
understand what is going on in the Scripture. I
generally don't get into cutting and pasting the
verses I reference, as I want you with the
guidance of the Spirit to understand it all for
yourself. I maybe able to tell you about the
temple, but a wise teacher does not bid you to
enter the house of wisdom but rather leads you to
the threshold of it. If all this clicks, then
being "in Christ" is going to give you a whole new
level of understanding!

I also offer you up in my prayers, and my prayers
have a way of being answered. Remember where ever
there are two believers in agreement, the Lord
WILL answer! We've got a majority! Rejoice in the
Spirit my brethren! And BTW, thank you for giving
me
an opportunity to teach. I've been in the trenches
so long slugging it out with cults, I'd forgotten
what a joy it is to teach the wisdom of the Lord!
Thank you for the blessing!

: Carol consider Mat 22:36-40 Gal 5:14 Mark
12:29-34.

: Review the verses in the order I gave them.

: it is important to know there are three kinds of
love in the Bible that I know of.

: 1) There is a lusty love.
: 2) There is a brotherly or sisterly love that
one would have for family and what not.
: 3) And there is a MORAL love. Most people have
no idea what a moral love is. It is the kind of
love spoken of in all these verses. In Greek they
have three different words to describe these three
loves. In English we have one word for love. The
English word love can also encompass a covetness
love in its meaning, but to the best my knowledge
a covetness love is not Biblical.

: Here is the answer I believe your looking for:
If you are loving the God of Israel then you shall
not put an image before Him.

: But more importantly. If you are willingly
loving God and your neighbor then their is no need
for the law. Get my drift?

: If there is no rule breaking, there is no need
for rules. In this way God reveals that it is our
love he desires and not our offerings.

: Thus our moral righteous and just God, is a God
of Love. But above the Lord's Godly emotions He is
a God of Justice. Knowing that will allow you to
smell many a rat from a mile away.

: However as Satan likes to work the margins or
extremes on many many things. When we introduce
legalism into the mix we devalue what the work of
the cross is (See Romans 8:2 again).

: It is good that you do set aside a day for the
Lord. As we know it was never changed by obvious
scripture from the seventh day to the first day.
And most of the folks that say that it is good to
set the Sabbath on the first day don't understand
why. Suffice it to say that EVERYDAY is a holy
day. But let no man judge you as to what day you
keep holy (Col. 2:16).

: If you need more explanation let me know, but I
think you've got it. Also Dr. Patti can explain
this better coming from the SDA church, as my
angle comes from the Spirit.

: Just remember than Old Testament Levite High
Priests used to make an atonement once a year for
the entire nation by entering into the holy of
holies the tabernacle of God. Now by the death and
resurrection of Christ Jesus you and I can enter
into the spiritual tabernacle ANYTIME we want;
going before Lord God Jesus and ask forgiveness.
Thus now we are members of a high and royal
priesthood! Because we can do this ANYTIME,
EVERYDAY, and EVERY moment is a high and holy day!

: There's more to it, but this is good enough to
kick off a study. also if you already knew all
this forgive my eager fingers, for they love to
speak of the Lord!

Lord God Christ Jesus came in the flesh and IS my
Savior! All glory be to Him!

Eri
Denisegilmore
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 3:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not sure I should post this but feeling a bit lost as to my direction. Well, not really my direction but how to handle this particular direction I'm in with zeal but also knowledge.
Sighh...this thread is titled spiritual warfare so I found it, after looking through all titles, to be the best place. I didn't want to start a new topic. Besides, I had met some of you face to face and found a wonderful group that I feel I can share whatever I'm going through with.
Even as I type, I'm thinking I won't actually post this.
As some know, my life has really turned into this life of having 5 Bible studies per week. It started out once I left the sda Church. It began without me planning it or even thinking of such a thing would happen.
Then, after months of studying the sandy foundation of the sda Church I felt reassured that at least my sanity was still somewhat intact. This is a good thing because I really thought I was nuts and had others telling me so as well. Others from the sda church anyhow..oh yes, and my family (when they speak to me). I left the Church for more than a few reasons. One, I wouldn't believe that Jesus did not go to the right had of the Father and that satan would take upon him our sins. Two, I wouldn't buy into egw being a prophetess in the sense they were meaning. Three, I didn't believe nor is it scriptural, that we couldn't eat meat. Four, I found myself being a hypocrit ie...wearing a dress, sitting properly, only praising God the way they expected and never being able to say 'Praise the Lord' along with raising my arms while singing and the final straw was the turn down of baptism due to my smoking, not believing that sda was the remnant church or that egw was a prophetess in the sense they mean. I know that some of these sound really silly to leave over but there were other doctrinal reasons and these other doctinal reasons are what I'm encountering now. It feels like all out war was called to defeat my attempt to find the 'real' Truth and teach what I do know, it may be very little but it's Truth. With this heart searching attempt, I have found something solid I can stand on..Jesus Christ. However, I couldn't go back to Church as I would go back to being what I am not. I was invited a month or so ago to attend a Bible study and me with sure knowledge of our Lord Saving Grace and also knowing that I am not alone in discovering doctrinal errors, agreed to this study. Well, that is on another thread. I should have stated that before I was invited to a study with the sdas, I was approached by Jws for a study and there again, because I knew my 'Sure foundation', I agreed. Then came a women of Catholic denomination, same situation, I agreed. Then a mason, I do studies with him too, then an anthiest..yes, I very much stress the Gospel with him too. These all keep coming back so far.
Recently an elderly lady came to my door and informed me that she heard that I read the Bible and that she wanted to know about the book of Isaiah. I agreed. Last week was our first study and it was wonderful. Then she wanted others who were interested to come which was great with me so I got out my Topical Bibles, my different translations of bibles, my study on the Prophets book etc etc. I really wanted to be able to answer any questions and if I couldn't, I would find them somehow and share them.
In all of this I have been thanking our Lord for such a life. From a simple person like myself to be doing any research is unthinkable especially in light of extensive brain damage (documented), epilepsy and occasionally strokes. Still, the Lord seemed to be doing something.
This day was my study with the elderly lady who wanted to know about Isaiah. During the week prior to today, she was approached by a pastor at her door and he was invited. He is a pastor of a Sabbath keeping Church and my gut had butterflies. Would I be able to defend my faith?? How could I possible remember verses and books without paperwork? How could I argue, me a simple, uneduated, brain damaged woman, with a pastor of all people. And very very important too, was that I felt very protective over the elderly lady and an older gentleman that was going to attend this study that I thought I was conducting or teaching or leading,,whatever fits what I'm doing.
This pastor as it turns out came with his wife and he is indeed sda but with a different name to the Church..Organized something or other,I cannot remember.
Right from the onset of the study, works were being introduced in a subtle way and of course I wouldn't remain silent. The two elderly people have very little knowledge, less than myself if that's possible, of the Bible and they both have the faith of a child. It's beautiful to watch and hear them speak of our Lord! Now here is a pastor, on the first study, introducing works. Not to mention that the study given us for next week is in Daniel 2 and the four dispensations or kingdoms rather. What kind of thing is that to these people that didn't even know how to look up a scripture???! I say, keep it simple. Start in John and go from there..but noooo. Daniel 2. There were a few statements from both pastor and myself but we both, did not want to get into the conflict at that time as these elderly people could and would get very confused and discouraged. This was an unspoken by the pastor and myself but our eye contact said it.
After the meeting, I took the pastors wife aside, while the pastor was speaking with the elderly, and explained to her that I have recently left the sda church and have many disputes with alot of their teachings and that I did not want these disputes in front of elderly nor do I want to see these elderly people being taught what I know is NOT truth, because they know very little and it would only confuse them.
She said that she and her husband (pastor) left the original church due to doctrinal differences and to feel free to speak up. I then took her hand and took her down the hall to my apartment to show her my office..er I mean apartment. It looks like an office and she even stated so. I have printed out all kinds of stuff against the doctrines held by sdas and also some stuff re egw plus she saw what I have with regards to many other denominations as well, along with my bibles, concordances etc. She has no problem she said if we were to dispute these differences at another time than with the study done with the elderly couple.
Ya know, I had a feeling when I was informed by the elderly lady that the pastor was a seventh day keeping pastor, that something is up. Now, after todays study, which btw, talked about how God talked to us through the prophets, how the Bible is the truth and all scripture...you know, sda sentences and I saw it all leading to egw. So I did say to the pastor's wife that if egw is taught that I will open my mouth and bring in documentation as well. I explained that I would prefer Scriptures only as our source of truth. She somewhat agreed.
How did all this come about? I leave the church and end up head to head with them. My biggest concern is for the elderly people. God willing and I know He is, I will not let them be taught doctrines of demons or men!
I know this post is going on in length but I need to spit it out somewhere. To top all this off, I have recently had a very good friend of mine start to pretty much ignore me. This hurts. Not to mention that all of these denominations are asking me if the other denomination has given up on me yet. It almost like a contest going on between them!
So next weeks study is on Daniel and their rundown on prophecy. How do I handle that? Remain silent? Speak? Have different studies on the side with my elderly friends? This, I am very much praying about. Believe me, I am praying and just sitting here most of the time wondering, with perplexity at that, how all this came about! I do believe in spiritual warfare and that is one possible answer. But, Lord hold me up in thine integrity..amen.
My brain is stressed, my emotions low and I'm sorry for this long post but this didn't even touch all that is going on that would fit this thread title...spiritual warfare. God Help me.
My comfort comes in knowing that our Lord will not leave nor forsake me.
God Bless any and all if you read this far. Also please pray for the Lord to use me in this matter as now it is not just myself against the cults, if it were like all the other studies, I wouldn't be so bold but there are unsuspecting innocent ones involved and I'm very jealous of God's word.
Denise
Patti
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 6:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise,
If you ever need to talk to me, my email address is drpatti@msn.com.
God bless you and your work.
Grace and peace,
Patti
Ishmael
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 6:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Denise,

I have read your post in its entirety. Your concern for the elderly couple is well founded in the face of those who have a singular agenda, the use of apochraphyl writings (Daniel) to prove a denominational or dogmatic predisposition. Please do not fall for this ruse. Preach the pure gospel, the good news of salvation. Do not let any other dictate your agenda for these elderly people. Stay focused. Let them see the love of Jesus. Stay in the gospels and then move to Romans. Emphasis justification by faith alone. Emphasize the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Emphasize that no matter what we feel we are right with God, right now!

Please, dear sister, don't keep arguing with these folks. Preach the simple gospel. Share the good news of salvation. Be practical if you must; contact this Pastor and his wife and tell them that you will be continuing in presenting the Good News to this elderly couple. Don't fall into the trap again and again.

You need some rest. You are struggling much too hard. Stop repeating what you have been conditioned to do. Stop proving! Share the simple Gospel. If the Pastor and his wife want to preach prophecy, stop now; for your own peach of mind and for the benefit of the elderly couple.

God bless you in your efforts.
Max
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise,

Ever since I was little I've used the following
Scripture for comfort:

(KJV) John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled:
ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if
it were not so, I would have told you. I go to
prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will
come again, and receive you unto myself; that
where I am, there ye may be also.
Max
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 8:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And in later years I've added this one:

NIV Romans 8:28 And we know that in all
things God works for the good of those who
love him, who have been called
according to his purpose.
29 For those God foreknew he also
predestined to be conformed to the likeness
of his Son, that he might be the firstborn
among many brothers.
30 And those he predestined, he also called;
those he called, he also justified; those he
justified, he also glorified.
31 What, then, shall we say in response to
this? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare his own Son, but
gave him up for us all--how will he not also,
along with him, graciously give us all things?
33 Who will bring any charge against those
whom God has chosen? It is God who
justifies.
34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus,
who died--more than that, who was raised to
life--is at the right hand of God and is also
interceding for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of
Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or
persecution or famine or nakedness or
danger or sword?
36 As it is written: "For your sake we face
death all day long; we are considered as
sheep to be slaughtered."
37 No, in all these things we are more than
conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor
life, neither angels nor demons, neither the
present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else
in all creation, will be able to separate us from
the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our
Lord.

In God's love for you,
Denisegilmore
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti, Thank you for the address, I will be writing. God bless you.

Ishmael, when this elderly lady approached me it was amazing. Our study together was wonderful and I focused on the Gospel only. This was the idea and I felt relief knowing that this could be a study focusing on our Lord Jesus and what He has done for us. She is so zealous and so is the elderly man that this was a genuine gift to be able to conduct some studies without stress and debate. Truly, I was so looking forward to these studies.
The sda pastor has taken over the study. Yesterday, I was silenced on more than one occassion when I would point out the pure and simple Gospel. The elderly woman really likes this newfound friend (the pastor) and thinks much of him stating things like 'isn't he a nice man!' or 'I'm so glad he's coming to these studies'. So in light of that, what could I say to her? This whole thing saddens me as I have two roads to take here, one I could not care about these elderly people (and more will come to the studies I've heard) and back out of the study completely. but for me, this is not good with my conscience, for there is a fire inside that compels me to make sure these elderly people are not led astray. I could stay home and pray alot but I believe that isn't enough if I'm given the opportunity to be there to share the Gospel Truth. The second road would be to tell these elderly people the truth about what they are about to be taught and with it, it's errors. This could very much confuse them but it might give them light during the studies. I don't know.
One thing you are right about, I have been programmed to 'prove' things. That was one reason why I so looked forward to these studies, because they would be a respite and a shear delight. I wouldn't have to prove anything because these elderly people have a heart for our Lord like I've never seen.
But now look...the pastor walks in and takes over. Silencing the pure and simple Gospel. I must do something without damaging the faith of these elderly people.
Here's a thought, perhaps next week I would simply take the pastor aside and ask him not to come back. Letting him know that I will fight his teachings tooth and nail. Is that a correct or even an appropriate step though?
The Gospel is the source of my peace and hope. To deny these elderly people by simply not going would be 'woe to me'.
I must needs tell this pastor with all frankness, my position and determination.
I have commited myself to these studies verbally to the elderly friends of mine and they very much depend on me being there. Seems, they feel very dependant upon me as their Gospel teacher, for their source of comfort and surety, not to mention that they love it when I show them in the Bible what our Lord has promised us and how much He loves us. This they very much need to hear.
I'm working hard yes, but in this case I can in no ways walk out. All the others I could walk out of and perhaps that is another possibility to ensure that I am not overly drawn. If I keep my focus on these innocent ones, like children, then I will have more strength, endurance and peace. No doubt. The Lord is my Rock, my Shepherd, my Upholder of mine integrity, my Husband.
Thank you for your input, you are very insightful and right on as to me 'proving' things and working too hard.
While writing this post, the answer came, I will defend the Gospel, focus on the Gospel and in order to do that, I will ask this pastor and his wife to not ruin the faith of innocence.
God Bless you richly,
Denise
Denisegilmore
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max,
Thank you for those Scriptures..you have no idea how much I needed to read them. I cried all the while I was reading. Is that silly or what. I must be crazy to be crying like this but so be it.
I hope you read my response to Ismael too, so you can see the position I'm now in.
I very much look forward to this weeks meeting. It will be a pleasant, uplifting and peaceful interlude for me.
Hope to see everyone Friday.
God Bless you Max,
Denise
P.S. I was fearful of posting what I did. To put my emotions and perplexity online is a scary thing. But, I so needed feedback. Thank you for your patience and encouragement.
Denisegilmore
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 5:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I neglected to mention that the pastor scared the daylights out of these elderly people by telling them of the curses people have gotten from translations like the NIV. They asked him if they couldn't read the simple english Bibles so that they could better understand. He said it is dangerous. He did point out something though that I had to take a look at in 2 Timothy 2:15. The KJV begins with 'study to shew thyself approved unto God' whereas the NIV starts it this way 'Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved' He insisted that I bring my KJV the next time. I had my NIV with me.
Bless all,
Denise
Max
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 6:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Denise,

Iím so glad you posted your feelings, for they
enabled me to quote to you the Scriptures that
have helped me so often in bouts of
depression.

Yes, I read Ishmaelís response and
appreciated it. Weíre here to help one another,
as you know. Jesus said, ìLove one another
as I have loved you.î

Looking forward to seeing you at FAF meeting.
Iím going to post directions.

In Christís love for you,

Max of the Cross

EVERYONE: PLEASE JOIN DENISE AND ME
AT FAF MEETING

6:45 PM Every Friday
Fellowship Hall
Trinity Evangelical Free Church
1551 Reservoir Road
Redlands, CA 92374
Phone 909.335.7333
Fax 909.798.7096
Website www.trinityonline.org

Going east on I-10
from Loma Linda toward Indio
Take the Ford exit.
Turn left immediately on Ford Road.
Pass under I-10.
Turn right immediately onto Reservoir Road
(this is NOT an offramp).
Go less than a quarter mile.
Grassy bluff on your left,
I-10 on your right.
Enter Trinity campus on left.
Your car will be pointed toward Fellowship
Hall as you enter.

Follow us to Cocoís Restaurant afterward for
fellowship feast.

God bless you all,

Max of the Cross
Jay
Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 5:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max, thanks for the invitation to fellowship with
you, Denise, and the FAF group on Friday nights.
Alas, I live in a distant state. Maybe
sometime.......

Grace of Christ to you tonight,
Jay
Shereen
Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 6:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If anyone ever hears of some kind of FAF gathering in Edmonton, Alberta please let me know. I really need fellowship. I find myself slipping farther and farther into everyday living. Even when I pray my mind wanders and then the kids or the bosses need something. I am the type of person that needs fellowship, structure of some sort. It is just toooooo easy to get caught up in everyday life. I feel I am on empty right now. My email is carol_anne_d@hotmail.com Thanks!
Valm
Posted on Friday, November 10, 2000 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello, I am new to the forum. My heart goes out to all of you and particularly to Denise.

Denise, when I read your passages of the last week there is one phrase that comes to mind "spiritual sparring". It is a term I came up with watching my own family spar back and forth with Bible texts to the point of making me ill. I never left such studies where one or two dominated the discussion due to their debate prowess, charisma, and ability to articulate feeling full of the Spirit but felt that my own spirit had been abused.

I sense you deep care for this elderly couple and understand that you want to share with them and be a part of helping them, but are you doing it at a cost to yourself that is not reasonable?

I have a friend that reminds me that when a door is closed God will usually open a window.

The present study environment you are in may not be good for your own spiritual health and is most likely counterproductive to theirs also.

I would suggest for youself to get out of that study group and search for a way to still meet with the elderly couple. Tell them your beliefs about what is happening at this study and why you do not wish to be a part of it. Let them know that you have fundamental differences of belief with this pastor and his wife.

I sense your protectiveness over this couple but are you protecting them by being silent? Let them know about this couples belief in EGW and why you can not believe this way. Remember that most SDAs don't introduce this concept until their students are well conditioned to accept it. Wouldn't we have all been better to hear about EGW from the beginning while we were not conditioned (or brain washed)?

I would add that often we view the elderly as frail. While their bodies may be, most of them have a stronger sense of self than we do due to their life experiences. They may be able to handle your honesty much better than your silence on the matter.

Denise I admire you care for this couple. Love yourself as much as you are loving them. Do not subject yourself to the spiritual abuse of this pastor. Continue to develop your friendship with this elderly couple. Search for another environment in which to share with them.

Ishmael gave great advice when he said you need some rest. In my professional life I work with Moms and babies and I am always advising them that a parent is as good as the rest and care they allow for themselves. It sounds like you need a retreat from service to renew yourself. Do something special for yourself today and celebrate the wonder God has created in you.

Best wishes to you Denise and to all of the others who read this post, Valerie
Maryann
Posted on Friday, November 10, 2000 - 1:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Val,

Welcome!;-) and thank you for the above post to Denise!;-))

Denise is very special, not only to God but to those of us that are privileged to know her. I, for one have learned from her.

She HAS been running on "fellowship fumes" but now has a family to help fill up her tank. She has a LARGE tank as most people would have crumbled while she's still uh truckin'. Actually, she has NOT had some of the religious baggage that a lot of us have had over the last 20+ years so she is not afraid to call on God the Holy Spirit for strength, help and guidance.

She seems to have a pretty good handle of Him being an irresistible and intimate God.

Sure hope you stay around a while and continue to contribute;-))

Maryann
Cindy
Posted on Friday, November 10, 2000 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Valerie, Welcome!

I enjoyed your post...you had some very good thoughts! The picture of sparring back and forth on Scripture to the point of feeling sick is something I've experienced also.

Some evangelists who visited our church were so very confident of these peculiar Adventist doctrines... prefacing statements with "Now, the BIBLE says!..." The implication being that you must be stupid not to see these various interpretations as clearly as they see them from the Bible.

Sometimes the best thing is to back away and just talk and focus on the centrality of JESUS, that He really is enough! Enough for sanctification now... and salvation forever!

Grace always,
Cindy

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