| Author | Message | ||
| Cindy |
Max...I really liked that--the testimony of Jesus is the very "essence" of Prophecy! And I am with you when you emphasize we WERE RECONICILED! Love your emphasis on the words, HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED, HAVE GAINED ACCESS, HAS POURED OUT, HAVING BEEN RECONCILED, HAVE RECEIVED RECONCILIATION.... I guess I see the outside of us righteousness (the Gospel!) as a totally perfect message! Of course we are declared perfect in Christ at all times; and yet, to say the Gospel message is the Holy Spirit in us seems to mix this perfect work of Christ with our imperfect life, no matter how much we "believe with all our hearts!" I STILL maintain, Max, that the Gospel message to be proclaimed is WHAT JESUS DID at the CROSS!! Of course, by believing this we possess the Gospel message...but WE are not the Gospel, no matter how much or fully we possess it! I would love to be with all of you at your meeting and restaurant conversations later tonight... Grace always, Cindy P.S. I think something happens inside a believer when s/he accepts Christ; sometimes though, after that first awareness, joy, and acceptance there may be a long stage where "changes" are not necessarily visible to others or even to the person himself... Also, Max, are you implying that I've given in the past "a long string of texts devoid of exogesis and full of emotionally laden eisegesis."??? :-)) :-)) | ||
| Cindy |
Max, I just posted mine above and saw what you just posted 3 minutes before. I'm sorry, I know I could never post "exegetically" enough for you!! I will go back to studying Scripture more...I'm glad I have a whole weekend free!! Grace to you, Max... :-)) Cindy | ||
| Max |
Hi Cindy, I have to leave for meeting now. So I can't answer you more fully till later. But I would like to address this: ^^Max, are you implying that I've given in the past "a long string of texts devoid of exegesis and full of emotionally laden eisegesis.^^ Absolutely not. As far as I'm concerned any kind of Scripture study is acceptable for one's private devotions. That's none of my business. But when it comes to public declaration of the meaning of Scripture, a discipline comes into focus: one recognized by all Bible scholars. Paul's contributions resulted from his disciplined study of Old Testament Scripture. And Luther's did also. And of course the Holy Spirit was involved. I was only trying to restate the principle of disciplined Bible study. And in fact I DO NOT think you have violated it in the past. Love in Christ, Max of the Cross | ||
| Cindy |
Morning Max! (well?) I've got "the best part of waking up" with some french vanilla cream! And now to you...is your full name just Max? You wrote, "And so how does this differ from 'the gospel IS the Holy Spirit in us who believe with all our hearts'? In other words, I believe that in the gospel the spiritual reality of God-in-Christ is BOTH objectively outside AND inside of us believers at the same time." With some trepidation, I will once again discuss this. :-)) I do get some of those "emotionally laden" feelings on this topic! :-)) To me, the simply wonderful, and wonderfully simple Gospel of the Free Gift of Grace IN JESUS is my source of assurance and confidence. Trying to understand the quotes of yours I posted above... I would say that, yes, that by believing the Gospel, we possess that mysterious spiritual reality of the Holy Spirit abiding in us. Jesus stated He wanted to come and make His HOME with us. I have thought on this picture much, also, in regards to "sacred" and "secular" times...Just as I feel that God wants to invade every room in "our house" and make it a real HOME--so He wants all of our TIME to be His! ALL of life is HOLY TIME when lived in the reality of God's Presence and Rest now--no more compartmentalizing of "sacred" versus "secular". I used to hate it so much when the real fun times had to wait until Saturday night sundown... Having church members over after church on summer afternoons when the sun goes down late...the children would want to play a video game, already having spent plenty of time outside in "nature" and their parents would say they had to wait 15 more minutes till "sundown". I'd feel like saying, "yes, 15 minutes and 46 seconds exactly!" I'm going off on a tangent...:-)) To return to the topic: I believe that possessing the Holy Spirit is an EFFECT of believing the Gospel, but it is NOT the Gospel itself! I would rephrase your comment, "the gospel IS the Holy Spirit in us who believe with all our hearts" to say instead, The Gospel is the Holy Spirit IN JESUS, whose Finished Work on the Cross in our behalf, is what we believe with all our hearts! I see we do have a difference in how we view this, Max, but I still enjoy "talking" with you! I know, though, I will never be a match for your exogetical skills! :-)) Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Good Folgers morning to you Cindy, Yes, Max is the full extent of my full given first name. People have called me Maxwell for as long as I can remember. Also Maximus, Maximo, Maximillian, Maxi-the-Taxi, even Maxlax, and probably some more that don't come to mind right now. I don't like Maxwellhouse coffee; I do like Starbucks or Seattle's Best. As far as our discussion of Scripture is concerned, I'd like to take one thing at a time. I don't want to defend my statement "the gospel IS the Holy Spirit in us who believe with all our hearts" any more, because it's too difficult. My defense is based on the idea that the Holy Spirit was in Christ on the cross and therefore was involved in the objective, alien, exterior righteous sinlessness of God that is declared ours forever in a historical act that occurred 20 centuries ago and with which we had absolutely nothing to do -- then now or ever -- except to believe it. But as I said, that's too hard to defend and people don't understand, and so I'm going to drop it. Instead, I want to make just one statement to defend: When the believer accepts / believes this justification (sinlessness of Christ) something does happen inside the believer. What happens is not justification, for that occurred 2000 years ago on the cross. What happens is sanctification. Sanctification, like many teachings of Scripture, is paradoxical: One side of sanctification paradox: it's instant. It's a new creation. I am both perfectly sanctified or declared 100% sinless (as illustrated in the New Testament image of the wedding garment) and this IS the gospel pure and simple, for the believer never removes this wedding garment: Christ's sinlessness. This side of sanctification is indistinguishable from justification. The other end or pole of sanctification is what happens inside the believer what FOLLOWS: repentence, humility, discipleship and obedience to Christ's "Sermon on Mt. Blessings" commandments summed up in one verb: love. It is the fruit of the Spirit. For this fruit I NEVER receive or accept or recognize any credit at all, for they are the fruits of a vine named SPIRIT = CHRIST = FATHER, not the fruit of a vine named Max who am but a branch. That's what I believe and would like to defend with a disciplined outlay of Scripture. Love in Christ, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
An illustration of this instant sanctification = justification: NIV Luke 18: ^^9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about [1] himself: `God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, `God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."^^ What happened INSIDE the tax collector? The text doesn't say. But if the rest of the New Testament can be "plugged into" this illustration SOMETHING AND NOT NOTHING happened: * Repentance * Humbling * Turning from sin (thievery) * Loss of confidence in his "own righteousness" and recognition of his ETERNAL status as "sinner." * Refusing to take credit for his "good works" of repentance, humbling and turning from sin. | ||
| Max |
Another illustration of this"instant sanctification" NIV Luke 23: 39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" 40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." Points to be made: 1. Question: Why was one criminal told he would be in paradise that day and not the other? Answer: Because one was elected and the other wasn't. 2. Q: What constituted his election? A: Justification = Christ's "eternal sinlessness" coupled with the theif's "eternal sinfulness" = "instant sanctification." 3. Q: What happened INSIDE the now sinless criminal? A: Repentance, humbling, turning from sin, refusing to take credit for his "own righteousness." 4. Q: How do I KNOW that's what happened INSIDE the criminal? A: The rest of Scripture tells me that this is what ALWAYS happens inside the elected "sinner = God's enemy" after salvation. | ||
| Max |
SCRIPTURAL PROOF OF "INSTANT SANCTIFICATION" NIV Hebrews 10:10 "....we HAVE BEEN MADE HOLY through the sacrtifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." | ||
| Max |
SCRIPTURAL PROOF OF THE PARADOX OF "GRADUAL SANCTIFICATION" AND "INSTANT SINLESSNESS" NIV Hebrews 10:12-14 "When this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he HAS MADE PERFECT [SINLESS] FOREVER those who ARE BEING MADE HOLY [SANCTIFIED]. | ||
| Cindy |
Good Afternoon, Max! I just got home; see you just got back on, too! Yes, the tax collector was very aware of his status as a sinner, in need of the great mercy of God!! He "stood at a distance" and "would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me a sinner.'" This is all any of us can do! Acknowledge our sinfulness in the sight of God's Perfection, and call on the MERCY SEAT OF CHRIST! I guess where I would see a problem is when these acts of repentance, humbling and turning from sin become "Steps to Christ"...this is all too evident in churches, even besides Adventism. Of course, the Holy Spirit draws us and gives us the gift of repentance and a humble spirit that realizes and acknowledges our OWN sinfulness and unworthiness in the sight of a sinless, Holy God. God's Spirit continually opens our eyes more and more to "turn from sin" and "turn our eyes upon Jesus"! Still, the Gift is Free! Total eternal Life based on Christ's work for me! All-Sufficient, and without "conditions" attached, when I believe this very Good News--that JESUS has DONE what I could never DO!!! Grace always, Cindy P.S. Did you go to "church" today, Max? | ||
| Max |
Ever since I can remember (I'm a PK) I have been told by Adventists that sanctification was "the work of a lifetime," meaning one is unsanctified till he reaches a condition of sinlessness sufficient to "stand before God without a Mediator," Mediator meaning Christ. Do you get the horrible meaning of this? Stand before God WITHOUT Christ? Only a year ago did I really "see" this text in Hebrews which declares me "perfect forever" did I "see" the reality of instant sanctification and eternal sinfulness. And so throughout all eternity I will still be sinful and in need of a Mediator! Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Hello, Cindy! Welcome home! Were you in church? I was in church last night at the FAF meeting at the Redlands Trinity Church fellowship hall. Denise was there too. Maryann brought her. Those who chose to go (about a dozen) enjoyed an agape feast afterwards at Coco's Restaurant near the intersection of I-10 and Tennessee Street in Redlands. The bills of those who could not afford to pay were paid by others who could. I did not go to church today, Saturday daytime, but will go to Trinity tomorrow. After church I am invited to the Tinkers. Cindy, I agree with your post above in its entirity. Christ's love to you and your family, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Cindy, I'm thinking about writing a booklet called, "There Are No Steps to Christ!" | ||
| Cindy |
Max, I like that text in Hebrews about the ONE SACRIFICE (CHRIST HIMSELF!) making perfect forever those who are being made holy! But I'm not so sure we will always be "sinful" throughout eternity.(?) I guess I thought there was "eventually" some ultimate perfection given to us when Christ comes again; or before, if we die and are with Him. But I do agree that we always have the need of God's Grace. We have the assurance that He will never leave us; we can alway rest on His mercy and mediation for us. Do you think eternally it will be just a matter of a perfection of relying on Him and not ourselves!? Right now my fluctuating moods of impatience, and/or, despair are not that pleasant to think of living with eternally!! :-)) I know that now Christ's perfection covers everything, even my moods, but I don't always think and live in that reality. I look forward to the promise of 1 Corinthians 13 where it says "THEN we shall see face to face" and "THEN I shall know fully..." THEN, I WILL ALWAYS BE PATIENT, KIND, NOT ENVYING, NOT BOASTING, NOT PROUD... NOT RUDE OR SELF-SEEKING! NOT EASILY ANGERED, KEEPING NO RECORD OF WRONGS, NOT DELIGHTING IN EVIL BUT REJOICING WITH THE TRUTH! ALWAYS PROTECTING, ALWAYS TRUSTING, ALWAYS HOPING, AND ALWAYS PERSEVERING! NEVER FAILING... ...with the emphasis on NEVER and ALWAYS...living in PERFECT LOVE! Tell me more how you see that we will live always in a state of "eternal sinfulness"... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Everyone: SINLESSNESS MANIFESTO 1. The "unelect" have ONLY their own sinlessness to offer to God now and forever. 2. The "elect" have ONLY Christ's sinlessness to offer to God now and forever. | ||
| Max |
SINLESSNESS PARADOX I am BOTH "sinless" and "utterly depraved" now and forever amen. | ||
| Max |
SINFULLNESS MANIFESTO In heaven and throughout all eternity I WILL REMAIN totally depraved. | ||
| Max |
Cindy, I'm not the authority. Scripture is. But I see in Scripture this spiritual reality: Even if you are ALWAYS PATIENT, KIND, NOT ENVYING, NOT BOASTING, NOT PROUD, NOT RUDE OR SELF-SEEKING, NOT EASILY ANGERED, KEEPING NO RECORD OF WRONGS, NOT DELIGHTING IN EVIL BUT REJOICING WITH THE TRUTH, ALWAYS PROTECTING, ALWAYS TRUSTING, ALWAYS HOPING, AND ALWAYS PERSEVERING, NEVER FAILING, ALWAYS LIVING IN PERFECT LOVE, you will STILL be utterly sinfull and totally depraved throughout all eternity and absolutely in need of Christ's seamless wedding garment at all times forever world without end amen. Max of the Cross | ||
| Cindy |
Max, If you get around to writing it, I will buy your first copy of your booklet entitled, "There are no Steps to Christ"!!! Great title! :-)) I did go to church today! Accompanied my father-in-law since we were both alone for the morning... and he is a very nice man who would not think of going on Sunday! I'm beginning a search for a church here; there are hundreds! My husband and I went to one last Saturday night--liked the idea of going casual in jeans--but left after 1/2 hour. Not what we were hoping for. So, one down, at least 99 to go! :-)) "AA" meetings are what Richard's mainly been into lately; a refreshing relief from some types of "church" experiences. Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
^^ Tell me more how you see that we will live always in a state of "eternal sinfulness"... ^^ Again, I am not the authority -- Scripture is -- but I see in Scripture the spiritual reality that Jesus NEVER DISTINGUISHED between "heaven now" and "heaven to come." To him it was all the same spiritual reality, and there is no text anywhere that says otherwise. To paraphrase Dylan Thomas, Immanuel saw with blinding sight blind eyes could rage like meteors and be gay. |
