| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
EVER DEPRESSED? YOUíRE IN EXCELLENT COMPANY AND PROBABLY CREATIVE! ìTOUCHED WITH FIRE: Manic-Depressive Illness and the Artistic Temperamentî is a wonderful book by Kay Redfield Jamison. I highly recommend it. Hereís the dust-jacket copy: The anguished, volatile intensity we associate with the artistic temperament, often described as ìa fine madness,î has been thought of as a defining aspect of much artistic genius. Now, Kay Jamisonís brilliant work, based on years of studies as a clinical psychologist and prominent researcher in mood disorders, reveals that many artists who were subject to alternating exultant and then melancholic moods were, in fact, engaged in a lifelong struggle with manic-depressive illness. Drawing on extraordinary recent advances in genetics, neuroscience, and psychopharmacology, Jamison presents the now incontrovertible proof of the biological foundations of this frequently misunderstood disease, and applies what is known about the illness, and its closely related temperaments, to the lives of some of the worldís greatest artists -- Byron, van Gogh, Shelley, Poe, Melville, Schumann, Coleridge, Virginia Woolf, Burns, and many others. Byronís life, discussed in considerable detail, is used as a particularly fascinating example of the complex interaction among heredity, mood, temperament, and poetic work. Jamison reviews the substantial, rapidly accumulating, and remarkable consistent finding from biographic and scientific studies that demonstrate a markedly increased rate of severe mood disorders and suicide in artists, writers, and composers. She then discusses reasons why this link between mania, depression, and artistic creativity might exist. Manic-depressive illness, a surprisingly common disease, is genetically transmitted. For the first time, the extensive family histories of psychiatric illness and suicide in many writers, artists, and composers are presented. In some instances -- for example, Tennyson and Byron -- these psychiatric pedigrees are traced back more than 150 years. Jamison discusses the complex ethical and cultural consequences of recent research in genetics, especially as they apply to manic-depressive illness, a disease that almost certainly confers both individual and evolutionary advantage, but often kills and destroys as it does so. Psychiatric treatment of artists remains a fiercely controversial issue. Dr. Jamison discusses both the advantages and problems with current treatments, and advocates a humanistic, flexible, and yet firmly medical approach. However, she strongly cautions against simplistic attempts to cure this most human and tragic of all diseases at the expense of destroying the artistic personality. KAY REDFIELD JAMISON, Ph.D., is Professor of Psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and the co-author of the definitive medical text MANIC-DEPRESSIVE ILLNESS. Dr. Jamison is a member of the National Advisory Council for Human Genome Research. She is also the executive producer and writer for a series of award-winning public television specials about manic-depressive illness and the arts. Kay Redfield Jamison, TOUCHED WITH FIRE (New York: Macmillan, c1993 by Jamison), 370 pages. | ||
| Max |
An Unquiet Mind by Kay Redfield Jamison In Touched with Fire, Kay Redfield Jamison, a psychiatrist, turned a mirror on the creativity so often associated with mental illness. In this book she turns that mirror on herself. With breathtaking honesty she tells of her own manic depression, the bitter costs of her illness, and its paradoxical benefits: "There is a particular kind of pain, elation, loneliness and terror involved in this kind of madness.... It will never end, for madness carves its own reality." This is one of the best scientific autobiographies ever written, a combination of clarity, truth, and insight into human character. "We are all, as Byron put it, differently organized," Jamison writes. "We each move within the restraints of our temperament and live up only partially to its possibilities." Jamison's ability to live fully within her limitations is an inspiration to her fellow mortals, whatever our particular burdens may be. --Mary Ellen Curtin From Kay Redfield Jamison - an international authority on manic-depressive illness, and one of the few women who are full professors of medicine at American Universities - a remarkable personal testimony: the revelation of her own struggle since adolescence with manic depression, and how it shaped her life. With vivid prose and wit, she takes us into the fascinating and dangerous territory of this form of madness - a world in which one pole can be the alluring dark land ruled by what Byron called the "melancholy star of the imagination," and the other a desert of depression and, all too frequently, death. --Amazon.com | ||
| Cindy |
Max, Hello... And a "Happy Sabbath" morning to you! :-)) I actually cringe when I hear this! I don't mean to be sarcastic or critical (though I probably am!!), but I would hear this often from the front and feel it was so cultic... I would think, how about saying, "Happy Circumcision!"?? (Actually, this thought came from a good friend who remains still an "evangelical" Adventist.) Thanks for your reviews of Jamison's books... I have seen "The Unquiet Mind". She spoke last year at University of DE and I was going to go but can't remember why I didn't...Maybe I got too depressed! :-)) :-)) A friend who is a REAL manic-depressive and I were going to go. (They call it bi-polar disease to disassociate it from the "manic/maniac" connotation now...) Fortunately, my moods have not been as severe as hers. I know my life circumstances have had a lot to do with how I've felt. I know I must rely much on the Sovereignity of GOD with me in all my circumstances; that He will NEVER leave me. He has been with me and led me through places I never thought I would go... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Cindy, Loved that "Happy Circumcision" greeting and will use it shamelessly every chance I get. Pure genius! | ||
| Max |
Cindy, You're not going to believe this, but I just learned that "Bris Shalom!" literally means, "Happy Circumcision" Boggled of mind, | ||
| Valm |
Max, You beat me too it but what a wonderful start to opening this discussion. I believe in a balance of celebrating our biochemistry with medicinally helping us to cope with living in this world. Some cultures consider people with bipolar disorder gifted members of the tibe and accomodate them. Ours doesn't and we have to find our place and sometimes that might mean medical care. I will write the book you quoted from on my must read sometime list. Another good book is Listening to Prozac and I can't remeber the author. It is an indepth editorial on the successes and failures of prozac and what we have learned by them with regards to depression. I feel inclined to invite folks to talk about their emotions through their process of leaving Adventism. For myself I had along grieving process in addition to anxiety and depression. Some of the anxiety and depression is biochemical but it did not reach debilitating proportions until I left the church. I was not fortunate to have a spiritual epiphany that gave me security in God's love when I left. I left the church because I felt the church abandoned me at a tragic place in my life. I felt ashamed to be in that congregation or in any Adventist congregation for that matter. I ended up going to an Episcopal church shortly after I was married but was deeply anxious that I was lost. I went through the spiritual calistenics of the Episcopal church but it gave me no comfort. Then I went through anger with God. I decided if God was really like the God I grew up with it would be like being in a loveless marriage just to be kept. That probably gave me even more anxiety as I didn't even like God at that time. No connection at all. I remember when my parents would call me on the phone and my Dad would talk about world events that pointed to the Spirit of Prophecy being right. I would get off the phone and wouldn't even be able to sit down. I would pace the house like a caged animal ringing my hands. Many hours of sleep were lost. There were many factors in my life that helped me have a reconnection with God. One was that my Aunt who was converted to Adventism left the church and joined an evangelical church. The manner in which my parents treated her confirmed to me that I could not be associated with a group that behaved so cruelly. Also when I spoke with her I sensed a peace in her that did not exist in the people I knew in Adventism. She suggested that I read the cultic doctrine by Ratzlaff and that single book enabled me to drop the chains connecting me to the guilt that I grew up under. I realized that although I couldn't find any logic in it, God really loved us and no matter what I have done in the past and what stupid things I would do in the future his love for me was constant and unending. The other big help I have had along the way is raising my two boys. They both challenge me in different ways but there is not a thing they could do that would keep me from loving them. If God is truely my heavenly father why wouldn't he also be such a fiercely protective and loving parent? I still grieve terribly for my family. It is like I am only a partial member. There is so much I can not share with them and they with me. Holidays are one of them as they have decided that they are too pagan to celebrate. I know that in God's good time this will change, but it hurts none the less. I think there are many people who read this site but do not speak. I encourage them that if they are feeling grief are anxiety or depression in their transition to have a voice here. There are fine people who will encourage you. I don't qoute much Bible but in the hard times I always remember that God's grace is sufficient for me and I will understand it all by and by....... Valerie | ||
| Cindy |
Valerie, thank-you for you thoughts above... It is wrenching to our emotions to have our whole eternal salvation questioned!! And that is really what is questioned by others in "the true church" when one says they don't believe in the doctrines anymore. Another thing, through the years, the "party line" has always been that people don't leave because of doctrinal differences, but because they have been hurt or excluded somehow by unloving members. I know for a fact this is NOT true (although many have left for these reasons). But there are many loving S.D.A. churches where people have left because of doctrinal differences!! I love what Ratzlaff wrote in the beginning of one of his books, (I bought them back in June and have still not read them except for the very first pages of one. I want to get to them soon. I really searched the Scriptures for a long time on these doctrines... once I was told that I was reading the "wrong things". I said I was mainly reading the Bible!)... :-)) Anyway!, Ratzlaff said that he had "studied" himself out of Adventism. I think that is great. But to an Adventist mindset it is a mystery and baffling! You always, always, would study yourself into "the truth=Adventism". And, if you ever left, you were headed for a "grim spiritual wasteland" (actually said by the "Review" editors once in regards to various "celebration" churches and members who had left. Blessings to you on this beautiful sunny day! I've got to take a break from this computer! :-)) Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Maryann |
In looking at the title of this thread I'm going hmmmmmmmmm! I'm the most creative person I know! Creatively........Maryann | ||
| Valm |
The people who studied themselves out of Adventism are truely courageous and gifted people. It was such a taboo to study the Bible in any other way than with EGW that I am still learning to do so. I still have to learn to relax and read the story without preconceptions placed on me in childhood. I read the Bible with the "what must I do to be saved" perspective rather than a "what is God really like" perspective. Any time myself or others questioned the line of reasoning it was quickly pointed out that Ellen White prophesied that the young people would do so in the last days. That was enough to scare me back into their way of thinking. Leaving in the manner in which I did (and some others) leaves alot of guilt, anxiety and depression along with the greiving response of loosing your entire social network and way of life. I also found that I was particularly vulnerable to falling into a less than wholesome crowd rather than supportive Christians. There was the whole complexity of getting involved romanitcally with someone with divergent ideas of Christianity. It was less confusing if they did not have any attachments to Christianity. I did try a couple of Christian groups but there was that haunting business of these groups being "apostate" as my parents would remind me. I am ever so thankful that I am with God's goodness coming out of this. I have a deep concern for others who might visit this site who are in the position I was once in. They desire a connection with God but are completely clueless as to how to have one because of the deep rooted hold toxic faith has on them. They feel an intensity of complex, energy depleting emotions which affirm that they are going to not such a nice place in a handbasket. And they continue in a real feeding frenzy of negative emotions. I hope they feel they can express these emotions and receive support from the "frequent flyers" of this site. I also know that I need this support also. I do not have any former SDA friends and feel that this journey is as complex as an recovering alcoholics journey. It first and foremost requires finding a reconnection with God. But I know that God wants to use each and every one of us in this healing work. I need all of you and I know that there are others who need you and me as well to. Well here I go talking too much again. Thank all of you dears who have welcomed me graciously to this site. Too all of those out there feeling like I did keep saying God's grace is sufficient for me, you won't feel it for a while but you will eventually. Valerie PS Bris Shalom OUCH!!!!!!!! | ||
| Max |
Thanking God for your testimony, Valerie! | ||
| Cindy |
Valerie, you brought out a number of memories for me in your post above. You said, "Any time myself or others questioned the line of reasoning it was quickly pointed out that Ellen White prophesied that the young people would do so in the last days. That was enough to scare me back into their way of thinking." So true! The quote (somewhere) about "one of the very last deceptions of Satan will be to make of none efect the testimonies" (EGW's testimones or "spirit of prophecy")... I heard so much! What a horrible statement! A self-fulfilling prophecy to scare away anyone questioning her prophetic "gift". I think we've talked about this before somewhere here...It would be like if I claimed to have visions from God and say you all had better believe in my authority...or else! And, if you questioned it, or tried to make it of "none effect" in your lives; this would be one of the very last deceptions of Satan! Toxic faith for sure! Also, Valerie, your observation that: "It was less confusing if they did not have any attachments to Christianity. I did try a couple of Christian groups but there was that haunting business of these groups being "apostate" as my parents would remind me." This is so often the case! Far too many, when weary of Adventism, are not grounded in the all-sufficiency of JESUS ALONE!... and so find it so hard to see other Christians as equal under the Cross! Even though they may not be "keeping" the Sabbath themselves, there is that nagging legalism underneath that keeps them from separate... There is that "mark of the beast" stigma associated with other Christians, so it is easier, less confusing, to not even associate with them...easier to just slide more towards humanistic views, figuring they've already left the church with the "truth". As you said, "They desire a connection with God but are completely clueless as to how to have one because of the deep rooted hold toxic faith has on them. They feel an intensity of complex, energy depleting emotions which affirm that they are going to not such a nice place in a handbasket." And lastly, Valerie, your thought: "I feel that this journey is as complex as an recovering alcoholics journey". My husband and I read that and thought, wow, how true! And, in our family, we have (as my husband just worded it, a "Dual-Diagnosis"... with both of these recoveries at work! :-)) :-)) How much we need the Grace of God in our lives! So, as we encourage others (and ourselves!) in this journey, these texts come to my mind: "Therefore, there is now NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS; because through Christ Jesus the law of the spirit of life set me FREE from the law of sin and death..." Romans 8:1&2 and also... "That God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. and He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made HIM who had NO sin TO BE SIN FOR US, so that IN HIM we might become the righteousness of God". 2 Corinthians 5:19-21 "Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" 2 Corinthians 9:15 Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Valerie, Un-like so many of y'all, I was forced out of SDAism rather than studied out. What ever way God saw to get a person out was the right way!;-) That way, when we finally do turn out lives over to Christ, He has our past to develope us in a familiar way to what His plans are for us now. If we all came out the same way, how could others relate to us all being the same? Each of us have a burden for the lost and or deceived. We all have our own way of sharing the gospel. One of the biggest reasons I left was that I just could NOT deal with wearing a dress all the time! I figured that any God or should I say, "(g)od" of EGW that caused me to go through barbed wire fences with a dress on wasn't a very smart of fair (g)od. Looking back on things, I sorta figure that having to be such an odd ball forced me to have backbone as far a being different! In other words, peer pressure had little affect on me. For me, being out of all religion for 20+ years has given me an understanding of a different lifestyle than I would ever have. I can relate to that lifestyle well. God can use me in that world again too! Being away for so long, I wasn't bombed daily with EGWism and so on! I was able to have so much of SDAism strained out of my brain and being that I was quite receptive when I really heard the gospel. So, praise God for our past's.....Maryann | ||
| Cindy |
Morning Maryann! I loved reading about you rebelling against wearing a dress all the time! I would have gone crazy with that, too! My upbringing was a much more mainstream, liberal type. Jeans were never a problem. (Jewelry was... :-))) I agree with you that God uses our varied past experiences all to His glory. If we are willing to rest in His timing, He will redeem our past (Colleen always reminds me of this! :-)) ). Just last night Richard and I were talking about some of the events of the past year. We realize that it can be very depressing to dwell on the negative. I love how Scripture talks of God's Presence going before and behind us; surrounding us with His love! "The Lord replied, 'MY PRESENCE WILL GO WITH YOU, AND I WILL GIVE YOU REST'" Exodus 33:14 An old Testament promise to the wonderful eternal REST of God. The "Sabbath Rest" that Christ continues to offer: "Come to ME, all you who are weary and burdened, and I WILL GIVE YOU REST..." Matthew 11:28 Isaiah 52:12 says ""For the Lord will go before you, THE GOD OF ISRAEL WILL BE YOUR REAR GUARD". Even our rear guard! I like what Oswald Chambers writes: "Our present enjoyment of God's Grace is apt to be checked by the memory of yesterday's sins and blunders. But God is the God of our yesterdays, and He allows the memory of them in order to turn the past into a ministry of spiritual culture for the future. God reminds us of the past lest we get into a shallow security in the present. God's hand reaches back to the past and makes a clearing-house for conscience. The God of Israel will go before us. Our yesterdays present irreparable things to us; it is true that we have lost opportunities which will never return, but God can transform this destructive anxiety into a constructive thoughtfulness for the future. Let the past sleeep, but let it sleep on the bosom of Christ." Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
Dear Cindy and MaryAnn and Max too. Thanks for your encouragement and also affirmation of my experience. I began reading Romans last night and ended with chapter 8. No condemnation is a pretty nice place to be in my life. It is a delima I have on verbalizing my story as to not over dwelling on the negative. I wonder is a good thing or not. I am at the position that I hope by sharing the sad moments it might give others affirmation that what they are going through is a struggle with detoxing themselves. Looking back I can see that the system in intself is so tight that it disables some idividuals the ability to find healthy social, emotional and spiritual relationships once they start to leave. I want to let those who read this to know, you can with God's help and good people overcome this. Go and prayerfully have a Bible study with another congregation. Refuse to put yourself in less than desirable relationships and places because of the discomfort you have been raised with in regards to other Christian people. Read the book TOXIC FAITH. I do not know the author because I loaned at the book and never got it back. It really helped me as well as the CULTIC DOCTINE by Ratzlaff. Seek out former SDA's who have studied their way out. They probably can help you the most. I love the Oswald quote that "God can transfom this destructive anxiety into a constructive thoughtfulness for the future." That is a really wonderful statement of faith. Once again Thanks all. I hope you all have as much sunshine where ever you are as we continue to enjoy in the NW. Valerie |
