| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Valerie, I'm glad you are participating in this forum as you seem to have a good perspective on what is going on here. You, having seen the sparring, understand how disturbing it can be. It destroys not only those involved but those that are present. I have made a decision based on much prayer. You're very right, like Ishmael, that this is taking it's toll on me and that with me beat down to the ground, what good could I possible have to add. None. In light of this, I have done just as Ishmael and yourself have suggested. This week many of the usuall studies with Jws, sdas, masons and catholics were cancelled so I could be better rested in order to make a wise decision. This seems wise anyhow. So, my plan is to address the elderly this week, Saturday, and tell them the truth. I plan to keep it simple as I can so that I do not confuse them. But you are correct that remaining silent is not the answer and that is exactly how I felt as well. I couldn't remain silent but it was a question of how to address this issue or with whom, the pastor or the elderly. I have decided to address the elderly first and let them make the decision on whether they want to study with me, who is not a pastor, or study with the pastor. Of course, I'm hoping and praying that the Holy Spirit will be with them, and I really believe He will, while they make their decision. Whatever decision the elderly people make, I will honor. Although I honor their decision, this does not mean that I intend to back out of the study as that is not an option, yet. I also intend on taking the pastor aside and informing him that my determination is much and that I fully intend to insist on Gospel Light being taught. On this one, I will not back down unless I am uninvited by the elderly people and I do not see that happening. Of course, I will speak in love with the pastor and I will speak in love during the studies as well, as is my way of doing things. I am not one to verbally combat unless there is a direct assault to the Gospel, then I pronounce the Gospel very boldly. In this way, I can continue to maintain peace without compromise of the Truth and at the same time proclaim God's Words. I realize that because they are elderly and very crippled up, that my heart may be more determined to protect them than if they were young and not crippled. However, because they are old, crippled up and sorely in need of good news, I feel they are very vulnerable and they still need a person there to at least get in one or two Scriptures of Truth. I believe with all my heart that the Lord God will honor this with His Holy Spirit's directing. Thank you for taking time to write to me and for understanding this tremendous position I'm involved in. Pray for this circumstance Valerie as I could use all the prayers that are available because for me, this is taking it's toll but at the same time, it's a lesson being learned. Please pray for these elderly, that the Lord will guide all their decisions. I believe that if they hear the Truth about what they are about to be taught by the pastor, then when or if they still make a decision to have the pastor teach, they will see the Truth as I had tried to tell them. Perhaps it may turn out that a few more studies with the pastor will enlighten them and they will opt to not listen or continue studies with the pastor. At least this would be my hope. I do know this, that God is in control so whatever way it turns out, it's in His timing and in His hands. By the way, today or tonight rather I went to another FAF meeting and what spiritual food I received! That meeting and the people are a blessing indeed. I sure needed the encouragement and insight. Our Lord works in wonderful ways and this is one that I'm most thankful for. God Bless you with peace, Denise | ||
| Valm |
Denise, You are a real gem. You bet I will continue praying for you as well as this sweet elderly couple who have captured your heart. Take good care of yourself, you are involved in something that could really drain your energy. God be with you. I am asking you and all who read this to remeber my family in their prayers. My parents are involved in a more radical form of SDAs who meet only in each other's homes where they can practice the way the true pioneers did. This means they can not accept the evangelical movements that are occuring within the walls of SDA conference churches. I have one brother who is pretty much like they are and two others who are becoming more involved in the evangelical movements. They have been very impressed through a book called See With New Eyes. Although they are much more accepting of grace, they still hold onto concepts that there will be a day when all will be accountable to the law (as SDAs see it)and that in the last day God will withdraw his Holy Spirit from them. My Dad who has kept the strictest of dietary laws just underwent an emergency quadruple bypass in August. He came about as close to physical death as one could get. He has mellowed out quite a bit. He has become much more gentle in his conversations and less critical when we talk on the phone. I wonder if he had an epiphany being so near to death but has not come to fully realize it. But there is still that barrier that keeps us from having such important discussions. How I long to be able to talk to them and wait for God to show me the opportunity....... | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Valerie, You have my interest up as far as who is behind your parents more radical SDAism?! I was raised in an offshoot of the SDAism that paid NO attention to the traditional SDA stuff and boy oh boy, did we have some radical rules and regulations to deal with. Though he is dead now, Fred Wright was the leader of the group I was raised in. Could that possibly be where YOU came from?? ?????Maryann:):):) | ||
| Onesimus |
Shereen: I read your post and desire for FAF in Edmonton and need for fellowship. If you don't find an FAF group, you might consider Bible Study Fellowship. It is an international, interdenominational Bible study that teaches an inductive approach to Bible study. They do not spoon feed you but rather it has a four-fold approach to Bible study which includes independent study of daily questions, discussion, teaching and notes as well as fellowship with believers of different denominations. I highly recommend it--it is how God led me out of the SDA church 10 years ago. I will look for the phone number and web site for you if you are interested. God Bless. Onesimus | ||
| Onesimus |
Sherren: The website for Bible Study Fellowship is bsfinternational.org. Onesimus | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Valerie, Thank you for your encouragement and prayers. I too, will pray for your family. If your family is anything like mine was (when I was 10 and under), then the father of the house had the say in the house. If this is the case, I will especially pray that your father's heart will be open to dialogue with you and open to Truth. The Lord knows who to work on that will best suit His purposes..:) I fully understand how painful it is when you cannot dialogue with your own family. But always remember that our Lord loves them too and He is working on them. We can't always see outward signs but just trust our Lord Jesus. Remember too that Jesus promises us that He will NEVER leave nor forsake us. He promises and His promises are sure. Truly I can tell you that my childhood upbringing was strict. Very strict and odd to all of the Churches as well. It seems that my dad took a little bit of this religion, added to a little bit of that religion and just a pinch of another and so on. We had a strange mix for sure. We didn't fit with Sda's, Jw's, Mormons, Orthodox Christianity or even Christian Science all the way. We were in an odd and very peculiar belief. Not long before my father died, something changed. He was holding up the Bible and the Bible only and stood fast against all. As a young person, I saw the change and the absolute faith that my dad had. He was what I would call a man of God to his dying breath. Of course, I was but 10 when he died and of course he is MY dad but still, as children, we have alot of insight. Especially when looking back. If my dad could be touched by the Lord in such a way then it is my opinion that anybody's dad can. Beleive me, he was stubborn as an ox too. Something happened and that something in my opinion was God. Praise the Lord because I am who I am because of direct impacts of some of my childhood. And it seems to be ever more apparent as the years go on. Amazing Grace... My email address is Lampdot@aol.com if ever you would like to exchange email. God Bless you with peace and trust, Denise | ||
| Valm |
Good morning all. To MaryAnn: I am not for sure if there is anyone specific that my Dad follows as he is a leader in his own right. He puts alot of his money in "independent ministries" and has his own one called "the right arm" His ministry as the others he supports firmly believe that the conference churches are now all "fallen" and that the true work meant for the SDAs can only be accomplished in this manner. They have taken works to a new height: vegan diet, most of it raw, many subtle dietary rules I never even heard about. Mom wears only dresses anymore. They won't put on bathing suits even when in the company of family members. They don't vote. And don't even use the word celebrate in their presence! On and on. . . . . I try not to be over critical because they truely are suffering in their own right. Sometimes the reprimands they make to me are hurtful but I remember that I sleep better than they do. But I thank all of you for your prayers on this matter. I long for my family to be able to rest from this madness. Friday while raking leaves (and their were alot of them) I spent my time praying for Denise, Sherreen, and Shelle. It is good to have a commuity praying for each other. Denise, have you written your story down for others to read? Just incredible. With that type of a mix it is surely a miracle that your father's journey ended up with the Gospel message. I understand your passion from what you have shared. It is equally a miracle that you came through your journey not confused but with such a strong identity as to who you are and still have life on earth ahead of you to enjoy it. I will remember your miracle as I wait patiently for mine. Speaking of struggles. I fully have the knowledge that Jesus is my lifeline. I can not even think of getting up in the morning without that connection. Along with the faith I have I also have this totally cerebral and logical side of me that brings some tuff questions. The one I wonder over and over again is: Well I understand the mechanics of Jesus being our atonement for sin. But I still don't understand it logically. Why do you think that forgiveness had to come through these means? I hope this isn't considered being disrespectful. I just really want others opinion as this comes up in my mind frequently. It is strange to me because despite the fact that I don't understand it deep in my heart I know Jesus is my lifeline. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Valerie, I'm addressing your question as to the logic of Jesus dying for us first. In Romans 5:12-19 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgement followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Jtree |
I pulled this quote from the Adventist Online Yahoo Forum. From the Forum moderator, the one that booted me for some question or another. Here is his take on the Adventist church. "The Seventh-day Adventist church today is not God's remnant church. The denomination may be entrusted with the remnant message (commandments of God & faith of Jesus), but most anyone who uses the scripture as a test of Christianity will agree that when one truly gets a chance to view the inside picture of church boards, politics, infighting, etc., it is clear that the institution is no different then the Catholic Church or any other protestant denomination. It is time, we test all proclamations of Christianity to the scriptures. Is the fruit of the holy spirit manifest by those teaching the truth. Does love (agape or God) permeate the character of the teacher? If not, then those individuals may not possess the relationship with God needed to bring us into such a relationship. Whosoever knoweth not love, knoweth not God, for God is love. The subject of Love (agape) should be our # 1 priority for study. As for funding God's work, what is Gods work ? If Matthew 25 is our standard and Jesus is in every person in our local mission fields that is crying out in spiritual, mental and physical need, then we need but ask, what are we doing to embrace those that represent Jesus Himself ? If our answer is nothing, our church lives to serve itself, rationalizing its existence with an occasional revelation seminar, then that church may not be doing God's work, and God may need to use others (Christian churches, atheists, agnostics, jewish, etc.) to embrace those for whom He died. Remember the goal is not to be a player, it is to be the key player. It is time the Adventist Church refrained from calling itself the remnant church, faced reality regarding the major challenges in it's local congregations, and began to do the work God entrusted into their hands in the person of the poor and the suffering. As Ellen White put it in Desire of Ages Chapter 70, it will be the one point that will determine the eternal destiny between the sheep's and goats, therefore it is a salvation issue. As the church undergoes intellectual scrutiny, how will you deal with the real discussions that are under discussion regarding the Adventist Church Today ?" Your comments here are welcome... | ||
| Denisegilmore |
$o Jo$hua, what exactly i$ that $aying? My take on thi$ i$ $omewhat $kewed. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Valerie, Thank you for the prayers you prayed in behalf of my elderly friends and myself. I wanted to let you know that the prayers were heard and answered. Today was the study with the elderly. My plan was to first talk with the elderly then the Pastor. However, the elderly woman had a sign on her door that she wouldn't be back until 4pm. That is the time the study is to start. I arrived at 4pm and found that the study had commenced without me. Seems the Pastor and his wife got there early. I just wished they would have walked a whole 2 doors down the hall (his wife had been in my apartment and knew where I lived), to get me. Anyhow, I sat through the study of the rundown on Daniel 2 and also read when it was my turn. I didn't say much other than getting in a few sentences about how our Lord loves us so much. I said this for the benefit of my elderly lady friend as I could see she was in great pain physically and emotionally I would say she is very very low. She needed to hear how the Lord loved her and when these words were spoken, she teared up and would comment on how she really wished he would come soon. My heart melts with these elderly, there is no doubt. I live in a senior citizen complex so I see daily there sufferings and loneliness. After the meeting though, I did walk out with the pastor and his wife to talk to them. Beleive me, I didn't know how to begin nor where to begin. I only knew that these elderly friends of mine were not going to be taught what I know is not true. I stammered and stuttered trying to get out what I had to convey with all the respect and love I have. Still, I found myself on the inside, like a bomb about to burst with determination to ensure that the faith of these little ones is not snatched out of their hearts. My fear was great and my hands were shaking. It's hard to convey here in words on a keyboard. Once I started however, it was like the Lord took over and lead me from one Scripture to another. Of course they had their Scriptures too and I listened. But I pointed out to them that they skipped over many verses of the same passage and asked them to read those as well. They would not. I finally said to them, that I percieve that they are teaching and believing that we can become sinless and perfect. They said absolutely right. They believe with all their hearts that we must become perfect and sinless in this life by the power of the Holy Spirit. Then it was pointed out to me that even smokers (one of which I am) will not make it into the kingdom. With this direct assault to the Gospel, then to me, I can say that I realized they were not going to be open to Truth as it reads, not as they pick and choose. I asked them if we could have a day together to go over these great differences, but they have no day open. They left and I went back into my elderly friends house to talk with her and not knowing how to begin. I first addressed her emotions. She admitted her weariness in this life and her physical pain was very bad. She shared with me that every morning she wakes up and believes a miracle will happen to her and that she won't be all crippled up and in such pain. She trusts with all of her heart that the Lord can do this but then asked me why doesn't He perform a miracle in her as He does in others? I could only come back with how the Lord's way is so much higher than our that who can know the answer to that. I pointed out that due to her pain, she keeps close to the Lord daily and due to my medical problems I do too and that because we both have these thorns that we now know each other. Where otherwise we may have never met. She smiled and found that to be a good thing. I reminded her of Lot, who nomatter what, trusted the Lord. With that she stated that she very much trusts the Lord and that's what keeps her going for this 80 years but especially in these aged days of hers. That was my opening. Trusting the Lord is essential and most important. She stated that if we couldn't trust in Him, what hope would there be? I concurred. From there I began my dialog about the beliefs of the pastor and his wife. I was hmmm hawing around until this elderly lady said..well, tell me just plain out! I smiled and so did she and she also stated that she would much prefer truth. This was an invitation I could not resist of course. I was very careful as to not condemn them and stated so. Also, I asked her if she felt she could save herself? She answered a resounding NO, as if I were an idiot. I smile when I recall this. I began to tell her that the Pastor is a nice man and so is his wife but that I believe different than they do. She asked how. I said that I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross so that we can have eternal life if we believe in Him. She said, yes that's true, so what is it that they believe that is different? I told her that along with believing that Jesus Christ died that they believe that we have to be sinless and perfect to enter the Kingdom of God. She said that's nonsense! So, from there I told her what I did know of their belief (as they are a branch off of the sdas), and she didn't care at all for their beliefs nor does she feel that she should entertain anyone that doesn't believe that Jesus Christ paid all our debts so we can have eternal life. You have to understand that I was very careful with my words so I would not cast a wrong light or a picture that would be completely negative about the pastor and his wife. I stated that they are a nice couple and they really believe what they are teaching and that they are not delibertly trying to decieve anyone and also they do this as their life's substance. I let my elderly friend make her decision. She has decided to allow maybe one or two more studies to see how it goes. She does not want to hear of any prophetess but that it looks like she would much rather have a study with her, myself and anyone else who would like to come. This was a relief to me and to her as well. She said she really enjoyed the first study we had but is curious as to what they will teach. She also asked me if I would continue to come to the studies. I said of course. Praise the Lord for His Holy Spirit! To top all of this off, a friend of mine called me and told me that he has been studying and found many Scriptures to refute the jws and sdas. He informed me that the Holy Spirit has really been working on him and that he would like to be in these studies and be an assistant to me. That's how he put it. Is this something or what? When a prayer is put to our Lord, He answers! Bless the Lord, oh my soul.. Thank you for reading this very long post but this update for me is inspirational. The power or prayer is Mighty and the Lord is with us always. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Valm |
What a wonderful answer to all of our prayers. I look forward to hearing this continued story. Isn't a joy to be allowed to take part in the healing of others? I will keep this short as it is volunteer day for me at my son's school and I have got to get out of my jammies and ready to go. Take care all Val PS I have copied the others responses and give them thoughful contemplation throughout my day. Thanks. | ||
| Max |
Dear Adventist Online Yahoo Forum Moderator, Thank you for recognizing that "The Seventh-day Adventist church today is not God's remnant church." I don't think, though, that you can show historically or from Scripture that the SDA denomination was EVER entrusted with the remant mssage. For you yourself have the wrong idea. You wrote that "the remnant message" is the "commandments of God & faith of Jesus" -- meaning the Ten Commandments. But in the context from which you quote (John's Revelation of Jesus Christ), the "commandments of God" do not refer to the Ten, but to our God Jesus Christ's New Testament commandments, which omit the Old Testament Fourth Commandment. Therefore, the SDA denomination is not only not the remnant church, but it has the wrong remnant message. For the three angels' messages are the gospel pure and simple and not that salvation occurred in 1844! Read Revelation 14 without wearing your White-tinted glasses. Under grace alone, Max of the Cross | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Okay, hmmm where to begin. Let's just say that this week has it's place in my list of 'never to forget memories'. Yesterday was the weekly study with my elderly friends and the sda pastor. I was not prepared in the least and at the last hour before the study, had a few minutes to try to fill out the study guide. The title was 'God's Blueprint for Tomorrow'. My friend that had called me to tell me that the Holy Spirit had been working on him a great deal, came to be with me for this study. He has now read Dale Ratzlaf's book 'Cultic Doctrine' and much of the material that I have printed out from different sites opposing some of the sda doctrine and the why's of it too. So when he came, he had a more complete idea of what it is like living as a sda and just how hard it can be to get alot of those teachings out of our head. He also now has a more complete understanding on just how subtle these doctrines are in teaching opposite of truth. He was shocked, amazed, in disbelief, somewhat angered but more than anything, he was concerned for the people who are learning false doctrines (sda and otherwise) and also felt sorry for the pastor's and others that teach such without realizing what they are doing. His heart has been deeply touched and this was something I had not seen in him ever. I have known this man for over two years now. He also now understood me a whole lot better! :)) We went down the hall to my elderly friends home and was there before the pastor. We all had a chance to speak of our concerns regarding how this situation should be handled. My elderly lady knows my position, she knows my friends position, the pastor's position and her own. But we do not want strife and contention if it could be avoided and at the same time, sternly rebuke false doctrine or better yet a false gospel. My elderly lady friend asked me how we should go about this and I stated that this is her call, as this study originally was for her and that she would have to let me know if she wished me to say anything more to the pastor or not during the study. She stated that she wanted to hear the study but if the pastor were teaching her something that is not Gospel Truth, then she would want me to speak up. She wanted to hear both sides. About this time the pastor showed up. He was full of zeal in his gestures, facial expressions and body language. He too, was ready for the oncoming challenge. He knows very clearly where I stand and my determination. Seems he was VERY ready for the battle to begin. I'm not very good at all of this, so please as anyone reads this, try not to judge anyone too harshly as I'm doing the best I know how at this point in my walk. So with sincere honesty I type out happenings, including my own weaknessess and faults. This battling for truth (sounds like a title of a book or should be), is a reality and unfortunately not always conducted in the best of ways. Forgive me if, in my short walk as a Believer in Christ Jesus, I come wayyy short of showing the Christian love I ought. THE BATTLE: We began with prayer. This is interesting in itself as the pastor and I were positioned on our knees and the other two participants were on their chairs. All holding hands. The pastor and I took hands with each other and a great shock ran through the both of us. Static from carpet I guess. But it was a good jolt. Then we sat in our places. The pastor started with answering some questions on history/prophecy from the last week that my elderly friend had asked. Then I noticed that I had my niv and not the kjv as he had requested. Upon noticing this, I immediately spoke to him letting him know that I'm aware that he prefers the kjv over the niv but in my hurry to the study I wasn't thinking clearly and simply grabbed the Bible I use most often. He quickly accomodated me with a spare kjv that he had brought to the study. We read the first few questions and answers out of Scripture when the topic of the 'Law' came up. With this, I began to shake knowing full well where this would lead. I could not remain silent as he is teaching that the letter of the law is most important, especially leading to the sabbath (7th day). I came in with a sentence or two and a Scripture stating how it is not the letter of the Law, as the letter is death but it is the Spirit of the Law and that the Spirit is life. He ignored me and went on to another question. I simply continued to shake with nerves but remained silent to hear the next question. Now mind you, these questions are all talking about the New Jerusalem or Holy City. Also note that in the study guide are subtle health laws and other requirements to enter this New Jerusalem. So I saw where all this was going. It was hitting on their dietary laws, the ten commandments, and other doctrines they teach. All in one study no less. I can see now so clearly how easily I was taken in by those very doctrines because they are so subtle..insidious is a good word for it. Now I knew that he sees her physical pain and I also saw him playing right on that. Because she is in such pain and crippled up, she is very very vulnerable and longing in her very spirit to see our Lord. It is detestable to play upon someones mysery and knowing what that someone is longing for, then playing upon it too...detestable! I go on record as saying detestable and not only so, but evil. Let the words not fall to the ground. So far we have butted heads on the commandments, meaning the ten commandments but now he goes on to tell my elderly friend how just believing in our Lord Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection is not good enough! This had my elderly friend asking him, 'well, I thought that if you believe in Jesus with all your heart that this is what is required'. He tells her that just believing is not good enough for even the devil believes. She then starts to agree with him. When I saw this I really began shaking and praying inside my heart for the words. I stated that Jesus tells us that whosoever believes will not perish but have everlasting life. The pastor and I are arguing and I listen to his several Scriptures and his lengthy spat about how believing means to follow the ten commandments. I then try to get in a word and he very rudely cuts me off. I insist outloud that not only I have heard him out and that his position as pastor does not give him position higher than myself and that in all fairness, I should and will be heard on this matter if he has any integrity at all. I emphatically insisted upon this and would not back down. Now, I'm sure some of you out there are thinking to yourselves that my behavior was unchristian like, however, if Truth be denied and silence entertained, then we have DEATH. The Lord compels me to speak it, sing it, breath it, tell it, and yes, even at times, shout it out. This is not something that I could remain silent on in no way, shape or form. When I was finished I heard my elderly lady friend say that she thought if we believed that we are saved and I said that is so. My companion that accompanied me agreed outloud but in a soft tone. His composure to this was astounding to behold as his usuall custom if he were to see me treated in the fashion I was treated by the pastor, well, he would normally have torn the head off of the pastor. But in this day, he was very calm, clear headed and very mild. Showing and feeling love through it all. I am amazed before my very eyes. I Thank my Lord, My God. So on to another question we go. After having disputed as to the Law and what belief or believe means, the pastor has us turn to a Scripture in Matthew chapter 19 beginning with verse 17: "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and 'love your neighbor as yourself." The pastor was using this Scripture to prove that the 10 commandments are required. I quickly pointed out to the pastor that the last one of these commandments that Jesus mentions is not in the 10 commandments but it is in the Book of the Law that was outside of the ark. That Jesus is not only referring to the 10 commandments but he is also using a commandment from the books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus. Infact that commandment is in the Book of the Law commandment number 418 and in Deuteronomy 6:5, It is also in the Book of the Law, commandment number 243 and in Leviticus 19:18. I went on to further this with the fact that they insist that Jesus only did away with the ceremonial laws and sacrificial laws. However, the two greatest commandments given us are in the Book of the Law, which was on the side of the ark and not in the ark of the covenant. There was much trembling on my part as I am not accustomed to actual verbal battles such as this. My prayers were going up from my heart so fast that I'm sure I couldn't keep up with them. There was a whole lot more to this but this is the basics for now. Strangely, the pastor was silenced. Infact, he seemed a bit set back. Then he quickly turned to my man friend and asked him to read the next question. I looked at the pastor and said 'what, no comment?' He said, 'sometimes it's better to be silent'. I then said to him that in this case silence is death. He ignored me and was very rude for the rest of the study. The study only lasted about 5 minutes aftert he great head to head combat anyhow. We ended in the same way we began. The pastor and myself on our knees and the other two in the chairs. All holding hands and of course the pastor and myself got one last big static shock as we clasped hands to pray. He apologized to me for shocking me as if he had great power in him and that somehow he was sorry that this power was shocking me. Amazing and sad. I have been treated badly before but I must add to this that this pastor was very arrogant with me and it was brought up to me by the other two participants after the study. They saw it and did not like it but until next week, I'm sure I'll live through it..:))) Well, another great thing that came out of all of this was that all of a sudden my elderly lady friend felt so sorry for the pastor because he doesn't know the Gospel. She said 'Let's pray for the pastor and his wife, they are such a nice couple and if WE can lead them to Truth then that would be wonderful'. So both my elderly friend and my companion have this heart to minister to the pastor and his wife and lead them to Truth. Amazing Grace. Can you all believe it?! Here the pastor and I was riled up and the elderly lady saw the light. She, myself and my male friend prayed for the Lord to use all three of us to help the pastor and his wife to see the Gospel Light. Amen. To those of you who are scholarly or theologians, please,,if I have made any errors then correct me so that I may learn. Thank you because I do not want to be a teacher of error. Also, my friend wants to come to this weeks FAF meeting! He really has read all of you guys and wants to meet you too. He especially enjoys Jude the Obscure aka Max's writings. :)) God Bless you all for reading this much, Denise | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Denise!;-), Wow, what a go 'round with that pastor! I think you did the right thing by NOT allowing him to spew false doctrine!! That was your duty. And it looks like the elderly folk saw through the whole thing. They would still be blind, had there not been this discussion! As to FAF. My understanding is that there wont be one next Friday;-( I'll get back with you and the local happenings. I've been swamped with the Christmas tree farm activities. I have so much pitch on me that I could double as a pine tree!;-) I was working on my personal testimony but have to go crash........Maryann | ||
| Max |
I'll be looking forward to meeting your friend, Denise. You know that the FAF meeting will not be held at Trinity this coming Friday evening (day after Thanksgiving). Call the Tinkers to find out where it will be. And, yes, the sovereign Lord is most assuredly using you. I'm amazed at how much. Max of the Cross | ||
| Denisegilmore |
One added Scripture that was pointed out in that study by the pastor was John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me." I pointed out to the pastor that if believing is not enough or in his own words, that believing is keeping or obeying the commandments, then God gave 613 commandments. And God in this verse is to be believed as well as believing in His Son Jesus. I told him that IF he is going to insist that BELIEVE means keeping all of the commandments that this verse is telling him to keep ALL 613 commandements and not just 10. The word in Greek is Pisteuo. Pisteuo is the same word believe. In John 14:1 the word believe is used twice. Once referring to God the Father and once referring to Jesus Himself. "Let not your heart be troubled: ye BELIEVE in God, BELIEVE also in me." Does this make sense to anyone out there? Is my posting making clear the point I was trying to make with the pastor? I hope so. See, in the OT there are 613 Laws that God commanded. How can the sdas say that we only have to keep 10 of them if infact there are 603 more to obey? Either we BELIEVE and OBEY all 613 of them or we BELIEVE in Jesus. Either we keep the LAW consisting of 613 commandments or we believe what Jesus says. The commandments that Jesus gives us to obey in the NT i.e. Love God with all your heart, mind and soul and Love your neighbor as yourself are what our Lord and Savior tells us to obey. Love fulfills the LAW. And we are not all that good at even keeping this one Command. Er, at least I'm not as good at keeping it as others. I'll put it that way. Praise God Almighty that Jesus Christ fulfilled all those other 600+ commandments for us. We would all be doomed otherwise. God Bless all of us, Denise To all theologians and scholars...correct me if I am wrong please. I do not want to be a teacher or speaker of error. Thank you. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Maryann, I must have been typing out this second little part of that last post as you were posting. Thank you for the encouragement and uplifting of my soul. I have been truly trying to study to show my self approved of God and wanted to be sure not to be in any error. You are right that the elderly woman and the man that accompanied me truly have seen the Truth and just how subtly falsehoods can be intertwined in them, even by pastors. It was truly a dynamic yet very stressful event but I can say that through it all I came out rejoicing in the Lord! :)) My friends are the ones that really shows God's soverengty as He gave them both a heart of a minister. Isn't that great news and not only that but their hearts are not hard or cold towards people who believe these cultic doctrines but rather their hearts are yearning to help people see the Light,,the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is most powerful for me to witness. I can imagine you are smelling good with all that pitch on ya :) Do you have a tree now? I will call you this week. God Bless you and your household, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Max, I have stated many times how astonished I am anymore. I can say without a doubt that the LORD CHANGES LIVES. He sure has changed mine. This is a journey of the best kind. My friend is now going to get his own computer so he can read this forum. He has really really grown too and together we are studying so many things and I enjoy it ever so much. What a life this God of ours has given us! I will call the Tinkers and see what the plans are for this Friday. God Bless you Max and I'm sure you will enjoy meeting my friend. He is a miracle! Denise | ||
| Bruceh |
Denise I believe that you did a good job. When you find yourself in those kind of siuations remember 1 Cor 13:4-8, the Bible here explains what Love is, you should memorize this text and it will help you when you find yourself in these situations. It looks like you handeled it in love. Bruce Hein |
