| Author |
Message |
Billtwisse
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2000 - 8:35 am: |     |
Denise:
There are differences of interpretation on the 'binding of Satan' in Rev. 20:1-3. Some believe it is present, others believe it is future (after Christ comes again). For those who believe that it is present--the restraining of the man of lawlessness, who comes after the working of Satan, is parallel to this passage in Revelation 20.
Another parallel passage is Rev. 9--where Satan rules from the abyss and releases his demons from there. This refers to the time present--where he is restrained from the former dominion that he enjoyed before the cross. He still rules the kingdom of darkness--but from a distance. He will only get out for a 'short time' as the consummation of all things approaches.
--Twisse |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2000 - 10:28 pm: | |
Hello Bill,
Thank you for your reply. Now I have read once again the book of revelation and here is where I differ as to where satan rules from and why. Please keep in mind, that I'm not a theologian and that patience with me is warranted.
Okay, let's start in Revelation 9. We see a star falling from the sky and this star has a key to the Abyss. This star opens the Abyss and smoke rises out so much so that the sun and sky are darkened. Out of the smoke come locusts that came down upon the earth and were given power. This power allows the locust to harm, not kill, those who do not have the seal of God. They can however harm grass and plants. These locusts can only torture the people of God for 5 months. John describes the locusts.
We are also told that they (the locusts) had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon. This angel is satan. But the Scripture does not say that satan is confined to the Abyss. It only tells us who is king over this Abyss.
Still in Chapter 9, we see the sixth angel who sounded the trumpet, being told to Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates. These four angels have been kept for this very day and hour and month and year to kill a third of mankind. John hears the number of the troops to do this destroying and it is 200 million. So one third of mankind is killed and the rest that are not killed by these PLAGUES, still do not repent.
In Revelation 11 John is given a measuring rod to measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers but exclude the outer court. The outer court has been given to the Gentiles and they will trample it for 42 months.
Next John is told that there will be power for the two witnesses and they will prophesy for 1,260 days.
When they have finished their testimony, the BEAST that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. Also they are taken up to heaven, after coming back to life. But at that moment a great earthquake happens and one tenth of the city collapses, 7000 people were killed in this earthquake and whoever survives give Glory to God. At this time John tells us the seventh trumpet sounds and there were loud voices in heaven saying, "The Kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."
In Revelation 12 we are told of what John sees regarding the Woman and the Dragon. The Dragon is trying to kill her but she is given refuge by God for 1,260 days. There's war in Heaven between Michael and his angels and the dragon and his angels. The dragon, known as Satan is hurled to EARTH along with his angels. John then hears a loud voice in heaven say: Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! BUT WOE TO THE EARTH AND THE SEA, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, BECAUSE HE KNOWS THAT HIS TIME IS SHORT."
When the Dragon or Satan saw that he had been hurled to EARTH, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman escapes the Dragon with the help of God.
In the meantime, the Dragon in the first verse of chapter 13 is seen STANDING ON THE SHORE OF THE SEA. Notice again, that satan is not said to be IN the Abyss. He is on the SHORE OF THE SEA in this verse.
Now we see two beasts in this Chapter 13. One is a beast out of the sea and one is a beast out of the earth.
The beast out of the sea is described. And the dragon or satan gives this beast power and great authority. One of the heads on this beast had a fatal wound but now the wound is healed. Men worship the dragon or satan because he gave authority to this beast. They ask "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?" This beast utter proud words and blasphemes God for 42 months (same time frame as before in revelation).
Now we have just read about the false prophet. Let's go to the Beast out of the earth.
This beast has two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon or satan. He also exercises all authority of the first beast in his behalf. This beast also performs miraculous signs and orders the inhabitants of the world to set up an image of the first beast. He was given power to give breath to the first beast so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. We are told to have wisdom and to calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666 (antichrist).
So far we see satan cast down to earth along with his angels. We see locusts tormenting God's people and these locusts come from the smoke that rises from the Abyss. We see satan standing on the shore of the sea. We see the false prophet and the antichrist. Still, we don't see satan in the Abyss. He is king over it but not necessarily in it. No such passage that I found.
Now we go into Revelation 17. Here John sees a woman filled with abominations and drunk from the blood of the saints. This woman is sitting on the beast. Notice that this beast that she is on is described as having 7 heads and 10 horns is the same description of the beast out of the sea. Or the false prophet. He comes up out of the Abyss and goes to his destruction. The peoples of the earth are astonished to see this beast because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. The are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, THE OTHER HAS NOT YET COME; BUT WHEN HE DOES COME, HE MUST REMAIN FOR A LITTLE WHILE."
We are told "The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction." We are also told that this beast along with the ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for ONE HOUR will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
In Revelation 19:19 it reads: "then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But THE BEAST WAS CAPTURED, AND WITH HIM THE FALSE PROPHET WHO HAD PERFORMED THE MIRACULOUS SIGNS ON HIS BEHALF. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast ans worshiped his image. THE TWO OF THEM WERE THROWN ALIVE INTO THE FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh."
So the False prophet and the antichrist are now thrown into the fiery sulphur. Now on to Chapter 20.
Revelation 20 begins with John seeing an angel coming down out of heaven, having a key to the Abyss and holding in his hands a great chain. He seizes the dragon or satan and binds him for 1000 years. VERSE 3 "HE THREW HIM INTO THE ABYSS, AND LOCKED AND SEALED IT OVER HIM, TO KEEP HIM FROM DECEIVING THE NATIONS ANYMORE UNTIL THE 1000 YEARS WERE ENDED. AFTER THAT, HE MUST BE SET FREE FOR A SHORT TIME."
So, satan had to be thrown into the Abyss. In order to be thrown into a place that you are already in, is not logical. He (satan) was NOT in the Abyss. The angel threw him into the Abyss.
Now John sees starting in verse 4, "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received the mark on their foreheads or their hands. THEY CAME TO LIFE AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST 1000 YEARS. (The REST OF THE DEAD DID NOT COME TO LIFE UNTIL THE 1000 WERE ENDED.) THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a 1000 years."
"When the thousand years are over, satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth-God and Magog-to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city that he loves. But FIRE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND DEVOURED THEM. AND THE DEVIL, WHO DECEIVED THEM, WAS THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR, WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET HAD BEEN THROWN. THEY WILL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER."
If there are people today that believe satan is already in the Abyss, then how do they explain the fact that there has been no resurrection yet? As the Scripture shows, satan is THROWN INTO THE ABYSS, THEN THERE IS A RESURRECTION (THE FIRST RESURRECTION). I haven't seen a resurrection yet according to these Scriptures, there is one directly following the throwing satan into the Abyss. From me just reading this today and not really having time to get into it, I still cannot see satan 'in the abyss' at this time. I see him just before the first resurrection, being thrown into the Abyss and then after 1000 years he will be released for a little time, then destroyed completely.
I could be reading this all backwards for all I know, but felt it necessary to at least give this a shot. Also in the Gospel of Luke Chapter 10 beginning with verse 17, Jesus said He saw satan fall from heaven:
"The seventy-two returned with joy and said, 'Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.'
He replied, 'I saw satan fall like lightening from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
Did satan fall from heaven before Jesus was crucified? Or was Jesus prophesying? Or does this have some other meaning? I have many questions.
Next scene is the Great White Throne Judgement.
I really need clarification on this subject in particular Bill and really appreciate any time you will take to help me better understand where I have made errors and I'm sure I have made some doozies. This particular book, is one that I really need to read more thoroughly again. Today was a rush job and my thoughts scrambled a bit. But I thought still I would show you how I see it today and you could show me where my errors are and help clear this all up in my mind and others that are reading.
God Bless you richly,
Denise (the berean) |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2000 - 11:09 pm: | |
Hello Bill again,
You mentioned above how you could talk for weeks of the deceivers message. I'm game! :) When you get a chance and a little spare time, please do share some of this. I'm very interested in hearing what you know and also what you are seeing around us. Personally, I would also like to share these things.
God Bless,
Denise
P.S. I hope you understood that the post above on revelation was in no way in chronological order. More than anything, I was simply trying to pull together the verses that has satan not in the abyss. Just so you know. |
Loneviking
| | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2000 - 7:22 pm: | |
Denise,
get a concordance and check out the words 'Abyss' and the 'Pit'. It's a fascinating study when you start linking the story together.
In brief, the 'Abyss' is a specific, hellish place that is a prison for certain angels that have committed heinous crimes. This includes those angels that mated with humans before the flood and created the Nephilim. There is an angel that is their king and his name is Abaddon--and he is NOT Satan. Can you imagine the horror that will be unleashed on the earth when these twisted angels are unleashed?
Anyway, eventually, during Christs millenium reign on earth, Satan is confined to the abyss while the beast and false prophet are confined in the Lake of Fire.
Do you want to start a seperate Revelation thread for this study?
LV |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2000 - 10:15 pm: | |
Hello Loneviking,
Yes, I would be very interested in starting a new thread. You begin, since you seem to know about this stuff.
I looked into my concordance (strong's exhaustive concordance) and there is no such word as 'Abyss'. I found that to be interesting. I found 'pit' and it is used primarily in the OT. It's use in the NT in the books of Matthew, Luke and Revelation.
This will be an interesting study. I only know the sda rundown on prophecy with the book of Daniel included of course. But, I'm trying to read the Bible and read it without pre-concieved notions now. Thank you for your help.
God Bless you. I'll see you when you begin the new thread on 'Revelation'. :)
Denise |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2000 - 10:32 pm: | |
Bill, above in the post regarding revelation. I made a typo, that I intended to edit at finality and forgot to do so. It is in the Revelation 9. I typed out how the locusts will have power to 'torture the people of God' for 5 months. That is meant to say. The people that do NOT have the seal of God. Not people of God.
Sorry about that.
God Bless,
Denise
P.S. Bill, I'm hoping that you will join Loneviking and myself in the new thread that will be started, regarding the Abyss or pit and the evil angels etc. |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2000 - 1:19 pm: | |
Bill again...sigh,
I have another error to announce. After chapter 13, I made the same mistake in my comments regarding the locusts and the people. I didn't edit this part as I should have either. It is NOT the people of God that are being tormented. It is the People who do NOT have the seal of God.
Oh, brother, I need to figure out how to make a post first, without being online and having to hurry as I have to now, then cut and paste it to this forum after it is edited properly.
Forgive me.
God Bless you,
Denise |
Maryann
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2000 - 9:31 pm: | |
Anyone out there know how fix Denise's problem with her computer?
She can NOT go up to the "EDIT" and cut and paste! Her "EDIT" option is gray? I have NO clue as to why this is. There is NO program that the "EDIT" option is available!
She has aol if that helps.
Maryann |
Billtwisse
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 12:13 am: | |
ALL:
I also have AOL as one of my internet services and my 'cut and paste' function has been disabled as of late on this board. I haven't yet had the time to 'dig into' the reason.
MARYANN: it was great to meet you in person last Friday! I started listening to the tapes that you gave me on joy and laughter in Christ--I have received a real blessing from them :)!
DENISE: There are many issues involved in the interpretation of Revelation and the apocalyptic nature of the symbolism. For me, there is not a contradiction between Satan confined to the abyss and Satan standing on the shore of the sea. These are parallel concepts. The shore of the sea is a position of 'distance' from the peoples of the current age (represented by the sea itself). The devil still engages his present work of deception (through his demons)--but does so in a position of limited power. The 'abyss' in this context is not a literal physical place--but a symbol of the severe restriction of Satan's former power that he enjoyed before the victories of the cross and resurrection.
When I get back to the 'comforts' of my home library, I will post a list of the 'forgotten' works on prophecy and Revelation that are worth their weight in gold. I have tried to purchase as many of these that are available and have many of them in my collection. Basically, these all speak with one voice on the issue that we are discussing. The popular stuff that is sold at Christian bookstores will certainly make a big deal out of Satan's current 'power' as the prince of the air--but this is not the type of thing that edifies spiritually--in my opinion.
This is an issue where we can disagree and still love one another in Christ!
--Twisse |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 3:27 am: | |
Good Morning Bill,
Good to hear from you again. It is also interesting to note that your cut and paste function has been disabled. I'm hoping there is a solution as this would, for me, make it so much easier to post something without coming back posting all the corrections etc..
As to the popular Christian book stores and what they promote in the teaching of satan's position in power and where he is located etc., I have no clue as I'm not in the position to purchase anything in order to know what they espouse. I can only think of the Scripture in Ephesians with regards to the Armour of God. But for now, it is after 3am and I'm off to bed for some shut eye. Until tomorrow.
God Bless you,
Denise |
Lorinc
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 7:09 am: | |
For those with disabled "Cut" and "Paste" menu options, try using the keyboard shortcuts and see if they work. Cut = Control+X, Copy = Control+C, Paste = Control+V. Sometimes programs can disable the *menu* options, without really diasabling the function itself.
- Lorin |
Maryann
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 8:38 am: | |
Hey DENISE!!!!;-)
IT WORKS!!;-)) I just tried Lorin's cut and paste distructions (oops directions;)
Follow his the directions exactly;-)
Happy pasting.....Maryann |
Maryann
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 8:41 am: | |
Oh yeh Denise;-(
I wont be able to make the FAF on Friday. Tom's musical is Friday night and then we are off to LV.
Maybe the next week? ;-)) |
Maryann
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 9:00 am: | |
Hi Bill,
Smilely face number two!;-)))) Keep it up'-)
So glad the tapes are blessing you! That particular set rates as about number one in my book. There are about a dozen other sets competing for that spot also but I guess radiating joy is to be the first lines of witness in God's people. What do you think?
Likewise here, it was great to meet the face behind the name. Meeting the people "of FAF" has been a thrill beyond belief, each and every time I've been privileged to do so. I get kidded for trying to get the FAFer's to describe themselves as I like to picture the recipients of my post's. It just helps me to have a face to attach words to.
If Denise cares to tell the shock she received when she met me, she is welcome to tell if she wants to!;-) It is one of the funniest and nicest things that has happened to me in years;-) I was honored!
:):):).....Maryann |
|
