| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Bottom line: Nowhere in Scripture will you find the following assertions: 1. The Ten Commandments are the "exact representation" of the Father. 2. The Ten Commandments are the "transcript of God's character." Here's the truth as it is in Scripture: Being the "exact representation" of the Father, Jesus is the end of the OT law, including its moral aspects. In Christ's love for you, Max | ||
| Max |
Lori, So that there will not be any more confusion, I do not mean to say "the moral law" is Jesus. For that would be like saying "love is God," which is not what Scripture says. Scripture says "God is love" -- there's a difference as vast as the Grand Canyon. And so I do mean to say Jesus is "the moral law" in the same parallel way that Scripture says, "God is love." Some formers may not like to think of Jesus as being "the moral law." But Jesus gave Commandments, and these Commandments were IMPROVEMENTS upon the Old Testament 613 Commandments AND the OT Ten Commandments. For example, Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery [7th Commandment]: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Christ IMPROVED on the 4th Commandment. Therefore we don't need the OT version, but we DO need Christ's version. For it is a Commandment of Jesus, and Jesus said, "[Since] you love me, keep my Commandments." Why? Because if we follow Scripture alone we cannot avoid this conclusion. Therefore it is Jesus Christ who is "the transcript of God's character" and not the Ten Commandments. Make sense? Agape, | ||
| Max |
Hi Cindy, That was a wonderful post! You quoted Hebrews 12:22: "You have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God." Do you realize that this statement is saying, HEAVEN NOW! Not just after you die! Or onHAVE COMEhave come to ... the heavenly Jerusalem." This echoes Christ's many (52) "kingdom of heaven" statements in Matthew -- where the kingdom of heaven in almost every case is said to exist HERE AND NOW on earth! The once and future kingdom! There are not two kingdoms of heaven or God -- only one. For Jesus also said, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is, or 'There it is, because the kingdom of God IS WITHIN YOU." In Greek the "you" is plural, meaning all Christians together, not just each one individually. Could also be paraphrased, "The kingdom of God is among you." Or, as the CEV paraphrases, "God's kingdom is here with you." Agape, | ||
| Cindy |
Yes, Max. I do try to remember that the Kingdom of God has come now!...Many times this concept is the only thing that brings me back from despair...The REALITY of GOD'S PRESENCE here with me in the middle of my circumstances, HIS SOVEREIGNITY over the situations that I find myself in. I often NEED to go back to the promises of the Bible. So many great promises! The Psalms, too, because they show all the emotions...anger, despair, joy, and assurance! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
To all, I recieved the following from an AA friend awhile back; and I think it can fit under the title of this thread, "Thoughts on Faith"...remembering to live in GRATITUDE for the reality of God's kingdom now ushered in by JESUS" life, death and resurecction FOR US!! "Gratitude to God unlocks the fullness of life. It turns denial into acceptance, chaos into order, confusion to clarity. It can turn a meal into a feast, a house into a home, a stranger into a friend. It turns problems into gifts, failures into successes, the unexpected into perfect time, and mistakes into important events. It can turn an existence into a real life, and disconnected situations into important and beneficial lessons. Gratitude to God makes sense of our past, brings peace for today, and creates a vision for tomorrow! Today I will shine the transforming light of gratitude on all the circumstances of my life." Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Lori |
Max, As "we" are no longer certain what we are "questioning" I say...we drop it. The more I read the post...the more confused I get. I have little time to spend on the computer.....and I just can't become absorbed in specific word study. Sorry.... Lori | ||
| Max |
No problem, Lori, and may the God who has absolute control of this and all situations bless you always. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Cindy, Thank you for sharing what was given to you in AA. That is very beautiful. I was active in AA for a number of years. After a lengthy bout of boozing it up, it came to my memory that somewhere was a meeting where they show how the 12 steps came from Scripture. I went. It was amazing, they had 7 Scriptures for every step in AA. If I ever can find my notes that I took from that meeting, I will share that with this forum. One day, I will tell what else occurred at that meeting that, to this day, I believe it was tangible evidence that God was with me. And this happened in 1990. I still have what I refer to as 'my Jesus Rock' and it sits in my livingroom. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Bruceh |
Max I just went through a lot of the writings on what faith is and I did not find what I consider a good definition or a clear understanding of what faith is. Is there any other comments on faith besides this line of writting. Bruce Heinrich Bh | ||
| Max |
Tough assignment, Bruce. I'll start with one of Paul's concepts: From faith procedes everything that is not sinful. Or, "Everything that does not come from faith is sin." Here it is in context: NIV Romans 14:17 The kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. 19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. 22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and EVERYTHING THAT DOES NOT COME FROM FAITH IS SIN. So from its context, faith is about relationships, both vertical (divine-human) and horizontal (human-human). Paul is saying, for example, that eating pork offered to an idol in a pagan temple is not a sin per se, because God the Son has declared all foods clean (Mark 7:19) and an idol is not God in any case (1 Corinthians 8:4). But it would most certainly be a sin, "if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple" is by your example "emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols." And as a result "this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your [more enlightened] knowledge." (1 Corinthians 8:9-11.) Such an action would be sin since it does not come from faith. Therefore faith has to do with your relationship between yourself and any other person as well as between yourself and God. Faith involves putting the other person's spiritual welfare above your own, especially if that other person's faith is weaker than yours. Hence faith demands action. For Paul, faith is more than just intellectual assent to a historical event -- the doing and dying of Jesus Christ on the cross. For from faith procedes EVERYTHING that is righteous (not sinful). | ||
| Bruceh |
Max Thankyou. I agree ---So from its context, faith is about relationships, both vertical (divine-human) and horizontal (human-human).----- ----Paul is saying, for example, that eating pork offered to an idol in a pagan temple is not a sin per se, because God the Son has declared all foods clean (Mark 7:19) and an idol is not God in any case (1 Corinthians 8:4). ------- That is right on the point. Faith comes by hearing and hearing buy the word (Greek-Rama, or the SPOKEN WORD OF GOD) of God. ----Hence faith demands action.------ Max you have put it very beautifully. I am doing a study on faith and will put it on this sight and I hope you will give your comments on it. Bruce Heinrich | ||
| George |
Max, I have thought for a long time that what is a sin for one may not be for another, but everyone always tells me that I am wrong. Am I to assume from this text and some that come before it that I may be right after all? NIV Romans 14:23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and EVERYTHING THAT DOES NOT COME FROM FAITH IS SIN. If you believe that eating pork is a sin and then eat it , are you sinning? If I believe that eating pork is not a sin and then eat it , have I sinned. We could apply this to almost everything that EGW wrote. If your believe everything she says, then you would have to believe that everything she said not to do would be a sin. Sooo, you would be sinning if you; went to a movie played basket ball eat hard cheese And the list goes on and on, but, I wouldnít because I donít believe these things are a sin. Right? Let me know what you think-----George | ||
| Allenette |
Hi George! THIS IS GOD SPEAKING: there arent that many sins. Try to enjoy life and dont worry so much. :-) | ||
| George |
Allenette, I ain't worried about a that stuff being sins. I used to know a guy named Allen that said just about everything I did was a sin. I told him one time that they may be sins for him, but not for me. Well, you can guess what he said, "Sin is sin no mater who does it." And that got me to thinking, if a person goes agaist what they believe and does something they think is wrong, is that a sin for them, even though what they did was not wrong? I guess what I am trying to say is, if you think it is wrong, then it is a sin for you to go ahead an do it. Right?--------George | ||
| Max |
He George, You seem to be a good thinker and one who doesn't change your opinion like a wind sock depending on the whims of the breeze. As far as the same thing being a sin for one and not a sin for another, I think that that thought misses the point of Romans 14. Paul's point in that chapter is that SIN IS RELATIONAL. For the Christ follower, sin has to do with relationships, 1. vertical: your relationship with God. 2. horizontal: your relationship with another human being. For you having a scotch and soda with your dinner at The Claim Jumper may not be a sin, "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Romans 14:17. But drinking that same scotch and soda WOULD be a sin if your recovering alcoholic friend Joe sees you doing it and by your example has one himself, falls off the wagon, and goes right back into drinking, a course of action that might very well kill your friend. Paul's point is your relationship with Joe -- not whether drinking a scotch and soda is a sin for him but not for you. Again Paul: "As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food [this would include a scotch and soda] is unclean in itself. But if anyone [Joe] regards [scotch and soda] as unclean, then for him [Joe] it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat [or drink], you are not longer acting in love. Do not by your [scotch and soda] destroy your brother [Joe] for whom Christ died. Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. "Let us therefoer make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destory the work of God for the sake of [a scotch and soda]. All food [and drink] is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat [or drink] anythiing that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin." --Romans 14:14-23 NIV. Notice Paul's statement: "The man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith." It is not the act itself so much as it is the doubt that determines what is or is not a sin. Max of the Cross | ||
| Valm |
So it is not hypocritical for me to take off my earrings and get out the dresses when I go to visit my family? I do alot of these things out of respect and to keep the peace. Or atleast I think I do. It is hard for me to say if my motivations or all that pure. The hard part for me is the responsibility does not go both ways and sometimes gets pretty extreme. (No bathing suits when going swimming) But I do agree that relationships are what it is all about. Helping one another and being ocnsiderate. If that was the bottom line of people world wide, imagine what life would be here on earth. Valerie | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, I have a minute before I run off to my "pagan" trees;-)) The kids are there already to cover for me. Your answer to George rates as the BEST answer I have seen you post!!!!!!!!;-) Totally clear, simple, to the point and all that good stuff;-) Now, answer this one in the same line. George may be asking this in his question too, so I will ask it alone. (Besides, I want to know too;-) Our mom is now (again) a good die hard SDA. To her, keeping the Sabbath is the ultimate obedience to God and the means of "keeping" her salvation that is slippery as a cooked okra b-b. So, for her, keeping the Sabbath in what ever way her conscience dictates, is of utmost importance. To vary away from that by selling a car, filling the tank with gas, buying dog food, going to a gymnasic meet to watch her grandkids (win), cooking a meal, washing clothes etc. and infinity etc., IS A SIN! A sin that could cause her "okra b-b" salvation to slip away. With that mind set of those pseudo rules absolutely and positively being a sin, would going against her conscience in these matters be a sin? We know and are convinced by scripture that these pseudo rules are just that, psuedo! They absolutely are NOT sin, therefore we have freedom in Christ to do these things. We have NO conscience telling us they are sins! They are NOT sins! With your answer to George above, and the principles in the verses, I think that if her (LEGALISTIC)conscience says that it is a sin to do all those things, (EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT A SIN), it would be a sin against her conscience to do those things????????????????????;-);-(( What thinkest thou? Please use plenty of your "OWN" thoughts along with the Bible that I know you will answer with;-]] Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Valerie, I have this awful headache from sampling a small amount of the most delicious alcoholic beverage I ever drank in my life last night. It was a brewed beer that had peaches tossed in near the end of the brewing process. I normally don't like the taste of alcohol and that is the second time I've had any in the last several years. But, guess what, it wasn't a sin to drink it!!!!!!;-) But......I did wait till my kids were in bed to taste this stuff. I didn't think, that in light of alcoholism being a factor in another family member, it would have been cool to try this stuff in their presence. God has installed me with two interesting valves. Valve 1...is a headache valve with the use of 1 drink! Valve 2...is a an up-chuck valve with the use of 2 drinks! So I've always been a lite weight;-)) So, I'm mad at you!!!;-(( With this headache, you made it worse by making me laugh real hard with your above post! You sad: "The hard part for me is the responsibility does not go both ways and sometimes gets pretty extreme. (No bathing suits when going swimming)" No bathing suits!!!!!!!!!!!! I'd have NEVER though of you not wearing a bathing suit!!!;-}} My goodness!!!!;-) :):):):).........Maryann | ||
| Valm |
The thought of me skinny dipping with my SDA brothers and their families is pretty funny. I didn't quite think of it in those terms. I am sure glad I can chuckle over it with a clear head. May the roars in you head settle and have a peaceful day. Valerie | ||
| George |
Max, I could write for a week on your answer to me. In a lot of ways that is christianity its self. It is saying that if you don't think it is a sin (and therefor are not going against your conscience) it is not a sin. But if you do those things so others can just to be mean, then it is a sin. The sin is not so much what you did but how or why you did it. Right??? I would supose a person would have to know it would be a problem for someone before it could be considered a sin. If I couldn't control myself arould people that would be ofended by my actions then I shouldn't go around those people. Make sence??? This goes back to a post I did a long time ago about selfactulization---Being at peace with yourself and the world around you. Those verses are some of the most powerfull I have ever read. What do you think---George |
