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Cindy
Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann, Max, and whoever else may be inclined to answer...

I am throwing these questions out hoping everyone who knows me from my posts will know how grace-oriented I want to be, and how I really believe in absolutely free Grace as far as salvation is concerned...Jesus' life, death, and resurrection for me is "my life" and eternal surety!!

That said, I have often wondered, especially because of my unique situation, these thoughts...
If we say an alcoholic drink is not a "sin", how about just a little cocaine or just a few joints...or maybe just a little heroin? Are abstaining from these more a matter of health, and NOT a matter of salvation?

A few months ago I heard an alcohol and drug counselor talk of how people will have a party and invite their neighbors over for a "few drinks". He said, what if you were invited over for a "few hits" of heroin, crack, or whatever?

Is alcohol more of a "natural" drug? and being around since Biblical times makes it seem more agreeable. Yet, it IS a drug, and I've heard it said that it has caused more widespread problems than any other drug. Another counselor we had once told me she thought that if alcohol would have been invented recently, there would be no way it would be made legal.

On the other hand, I know Adventists who take prescription anti-anxiety pills or prescription sleeping pills, but would be horrifed to think of having a drink to help them relax or sleep at night!

This all is related, I think, to our faith and what we consider sin. If sin is a break in our relationship with God, what constitutes a clouding of our ability to perceive His presence or a releasing of our inhibitions, etc?

How much do we alter our minds and yet be open to the Holy Spirit still? Or perhaps a relaxing effect of alcohol can make us open to God?

Those who want completly clear brain cells must realize that living in this sin damaged world we will never have our minds totally free of polluting influences (moods, sugar, environmental factors, etc.)

Throw in nicotine, and or, caffiene if those are your addictions. To me there is a great relaxing effect of a cup of coffee and reading the Bible or some other good spiritual book... -:))

Can we as Christians in this day of massive problems with alcohol abuse (drunk driving, family disintegration, violence, sexual promiscuity, etc.)....

can we speak ever speak against it at all without sounding "legalistic"?

Alcohol is so often advertised with the promise of the attainment of power, prestige, and available easy sex.

Another thing is that alcoholism is such a disease of denial that problems can sneak up on those unfortunate few who develop that allergy to alcohol, ending up with severe consequences. I'm not sure what percentage of those who try alcohol are unable to stop at just one or two drinks.

Still,I really disagree with the Adventist view of absolute teetotalism that is a measure of your assurance of salvation.

I like the way Frederick Buechner describes the grace of God. He says the "New Wine" of the gospel is compared to wine because the gospel, like wine, "loosens the tongue and gladdens the heart!"

How true this is about God's gift in Christ!

Grace always,
Cindy

P.S. My husband tells me that a recovering alcoholic's goal is to live where he does not resent that others can enjoy a few drinks. They just know that they themselves can not handle even one!

There are a number of issues going on here I realize. How do we live a Spirit-filled life? How much do we let our love for others influence our behavior? When do we live our life without constantly being afraid of what hard-core legalists think?

There IS a freedom we are granted in the Gospel. I guess to me it has become a matter of trying to not flaunt that freedom and live always, most importantly, for an "audience of ONE"...
Valm
Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 8:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cindy, You have put forth very good questions.

I believe that the bottom line on all of these substances is that abstaining or not does not give us or deny us salvation.

So what is the big deal? First and foremost is how do they affect our life and relationships here on earth? What has gotten us into taking these substances in the first place? Are we using them as a substitute for love, happiness, and peace? Are we self medicating for inherent biochemical defficiencies we have.

I can only answer for myself. I do drink a little wine on a semi regular basis. Like your coffee sometimes I have it in conjunction with reading the Bible. I enjoy the taste and the relaxation I derive from it. In the quantities I take I believe it is good for my health and their are certain studies and anecdotal data which suggest so.

There are Christians that speak against alcohol. I certainly respect them for that because you are correct that alcohol abuse has done much to destroy the lives of people. I myself could never drink in front of a recovering alcoholic because I know what pain it has caused them in their lives and the lives of their loved ones.

I rarely take in caffiene because of the way it affects my body. It can make me irritable and jittery. But it is helpful to others and take no offense to it and offer it in home.

I do not think smoking is a sin but believe it to be highly addictive and bad for people's health. I do not tolerate a smokey environment physically and do not allow it in my home and rarely frequent places where smoking is allowed. I keep my kids away from smoke because I truely believe it is bad for their health.

Other than the effects of the smoke, marijuana in my mind doesn't alter one any more significantly than a glass of wine or beer. It has prooven medicinal benefits to some ailments. I support it's use for people whom it would help. I am neutral on its legalization.

The others are highly potent drugs and are much more likely to result in life threatening events. They are hihgly addictive. They are presently associated with violence; whether that is due to the illegal staus or not is another subject. They also are presently sold with no garantee that what you are taking is pure and not without even more deadly chemical within them. I believe they are much more likely to detract people from the things that truely make them happy: their relationship with God and others as well as how they view themselves.

As God's children we are always loved and never forsaken. By living in the spirit he will tell each of us what is right or wrong. I do know that he wants our happiness to begin right here and now. In my mind he would not want me to chance my happiness or my familiy's happiness by something as unhealthy as drugs.

Valerie
George
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 1:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cindy and Valerie,

Did I stir up a hornets nest or what, but , hornets can be a good thing.

I think spirituality is more an attitude than anything else. I think it was all the dos and don'ts that got me questioning religion to begin with. What could I do to make them less an issue? So after all these years, I have come to the conclusion that it is not what you do or donít do that is wrong but the attitude in which you do them.

For me and me alone I don't see anything sinful in trying any kind of drug. There are some that I will never try because I am afraid I will like them too much.

So you can see the idea of, ìif I donít think it is wrong it is not a sinî working here. There are some chemicals I will use because I know I can handle them others that would be wrong for me to use because I am afraid I would not be able to control them.

How we know which ones are which I would not want to say. But if you donít know or afraid you couldnít use them with out some problems, it would not be wise to try them. Notice I didnít say it would be a sin, but just not wise.

If you think it is a good thing or donít know donít, would be the fewest words that could be uses to describe this ìattitudeî. However there are a lot of good things we donít know or didnít at one time, (like salvation by faith alone) so we shouldnít let that rule totally run our life either.

The feeling of being smothered by all the legalistic mumbo jumbo scares me more than anything, but being with out it scares the life out of others. So here we have a quandary, what is good for one may not be good for another. One could argue either side and be right. After all havenít we already decided that faith in Christ and belief in His death is the only thing that saves us?

So, how could any one side of the legalistic issue be right or wrong, to do drugs or not to do drugs how could either one be wrong or right for any one person? It must be something else!! The thing that makes the most sense to me and applies to either side is--listening to your conscience or not listening. It is the only thing that I can think of that can be used on both sides and be right.

I am not sure, but didnít say in the verses Max used to answer me, something about not getting hung up on the right or wrong of things? A person could argue and be so confused about things that they loose sight of the fact that it is only Christ's blood that saves us, not wheather something is right or wrong, and be lost. This also can be applied to both sides the same.

We have to be honest with ourselves about this to make it work. Notice that this too is an attitude not something we do.

What do you think?----George
Shereen
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 6:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't believe what I am reading!!! Drugs and drinking are ruining our lives. We are all affected. What about the person, like my little sister, who tries crack once and get addicted immediatly and gets so bad that she gives her kids away and becomes a prostitute. I listen to her cry on the phone to me all the time. I hear her kids cry and cry and cry. What about someone like my ex who watched his parents drink and started at a very young age drinking and drank his liver away. What about ppl like my nephew who make their living off selling drugs and end up in penitentaries for their young lives. What about kids who say, "You do so why can't I" and they are young and don't know their limits (as if anyone knows their limits really!!!). This 'devil may care' attitude makes me scared. I have seen and lived through more in my life in regards to the effects of drugs, drinking and a free life to be terrified of it and terrified for anyone stupid enough to think they "know" it will not affect them because they "know" their limits. 85% of my friends are dead and they all died young and as a result of chemicals of one sort or another.

If this is the kind of message that this forum is going to give, then I want nothing to do with it.

If there are any semi ex adventists out there that come here because they are fed up with legalism, this kind of talk is just going to get them from the frying pan into the fire.
Valm
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 7:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George, Sometimes hornets nests are good.

After I wrote last night I was doing some reading and came across Galations 5:19 The act of the sinful nature are obvious.......those that live like this will not inhertit the kingdom of God.It reminded me that there are acts that are sinful.

Of course drug abuse is not in Paul's list. I would think his list is a short list and we individually can figure it out for ourselves.

I would never take the approach with someone that they are sinning. Because who am I to say. I would to any friend of mine discuss my concerns with them if they are doing something I believe is harmful to their bodies. This is the nurse in me.

I think it was Max that made a point that sins have to do with our relationship either with God or others. This seems to be a sensible piece to the puzzle. But it also certainly leaves no clearly defined lines for all to follow.

These are just my thoughts. Take good care of yourself George Valerie
Max
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 7:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

God bless you, Shereen,

You are exactly right and your post was driven
by our sovereign God (Father, Son and Holy
Spirit).

Don't worry about this forum going 'devil may
care' though. I can guarantee you, under the
conviction of our Lord Jesus Christ, that that
will NOT happen. Richard, Colleen and I will
not permit it, no matter what. FAFF is
dedicated to God and to his glory and
righteousness, not to cheap grace.

Let me reassure you with Scripture (Jude 4
NIV): Certain men whose condemnation was
written about long ago have secretly slipped in
among you. They are godless men, who
CHANGE the GRACE of our God into a license
for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only
Sovereign and Lord." In other words, they
cheapen grace.

People here may vent. But truth will prevail --
as YOUR POST so eloquently demonstrates.

I'll close with a text I have posted many times
on this website:

Romans 6:1-4 NIV: "What shall we say, then?
Shall we go on sinning so that grace may
increase? By no means! We died to sin; how
can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know
that all of us who were baptized into Christ
Jesus were baptized into his death? We were
therefore buried with him through baptism into
death in order that, just as Christ was raised
from the dead through the glory of the Father,
we too may live a new life."

Praising God for you, Shereen, and for your
testimony here,

Max of the Cross
Valm
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 7:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shereen, Thanks for the kick in the pants. Seriously. Valerie.
Max
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 7:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Val,

You posted, ^^So it is not hypocritical for me to
take off my earrings and get out the dresses
when I go to visit my family? I do alot of these
things out of respect and to keep the peace.
Or atleast I think I do. It is hard for me to say if
my motivations or all that pure.^^

It may indeed be hypocritical for you to remove
your earrings and exchange jeans for a dress
when you visit your family or origin.

Remember, Paul's example in Romans 14,
was in causing a weaker person to stumble.
This is NOT the case with your parents. Your
case is more like Paul's encounter with Peter,
who was "living like the Gentile Christians"
(eating honey baked ham) until the Judaizing
Christians came from Jerusalem. Then Peter
"drew back." Paul grabbed him by the lapels
and accused him of hypocrisy.

My advice: Do NOT remove your earrings. Do
NOT switch from jeans to a dress when
visiting your family of origin. To do so is
hypocritical. Not to do so is witnessing to your
freedom in Christ.

This, at least, is the way I read Scripture.

Max of the Cross
George
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 7:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shereen,

This forum is a place for the free exchange of ideas, if you don't like some don't use them.

If you will reread what I wrote you will see that I said I wouldn't want to tell anyone where their level of will power is.

If you will read some of the other posts of mine youwill see that I mentioned many other things where you could use this idea.

For me and me alone, I can drink as much as I want to and not have any trouble, when I get to liking it too much I just stop. There are many others that can not do this, and to anyone that doesn't know their limets I would say, Don't try it you may be one of those that can,t stop.

Drinking is a real sore spot with you, and I can understand that because my ex. is still recovering. So lets apply this idea to the eating of hard cheese. EGW has said that it shouldn't be eaten. When I was very young I ate some, and you wouldn't believe the Hell I went through because I thought I had sinned. Can you tell me if I actually did sin? My view now is that I did because I did something that in my own mind was wrong. Do you see where I am comming from?

Didn'dt intend to offend----George
George
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 8:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max,

If Val was a smoker should she continue to smoke around her parents, even in their house?

George
Shereen
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 8:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under
grace? God forbid. Rom. 6:15
Max
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 8:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, George. Stray or "second hand" smoke
kills other people.
Shereen
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 8:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George,

I don't want to start an dissension here but I prefer to use my common sense and the wisdom that I ask God for. I won't get all nit picky. I believe, and this is from a life time of experience, alot of it my own personal experience, that drugs or drinking are just not good. I think most people are not as strong as you are and may find them selves falling too fast and too hard. I prefer not to read and enjoy the fact that someone is sick from drinking (even one drink). Alot of ppl make a hang over fun (not that I am saying the one drink was excessive in any way) I have heard too many ppl laughing together about how bad they feel from the "night before" to find any humour in this what-so-ever.

I am sorry if you have taken offense with what I have said but I am not sorry for having said it.
George
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 8:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max

Well then, should she go there drunk or bring a bottle and get drunk? If this is her normal way of living, to change would be hypocritical wouldn't it. If it applys to one behavior it should apply to all. Right?
Max
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 8:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CIGARETTE SMOKE IS NOT FOOD

Paul considered wine (an alcohol beverage)
as a food. And he wrote, "It is better not to eat
meat or drink wine or do anything else that will
cause your brother to fall." But he said that
drunkenness as one of "the acts of the sinful
nature" that "are obvious" (Galatians 5:19-21):

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious:
sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord,
jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition,
dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness,
orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before,
that those who live like this will not inherit the
kingdom of God."

Notice that Paul uses the phrase, "and the
like," meaning -- if he were writing today -- the
use of illicit drugs. There can be no question
or compromise on this point.

Smoking is wrong because it destroys the
temple of God (the body of the smoker) and
other temples of God (other people) around
the smoker.

Taking illicit drugs is wrong for the same
reason. It is not possible for a drug addict not
to destroy the lives of others around him while
he is destroying his own life.

Shereen is not advocating legalism in her
post. Even under the new covenant sin is still
a matter of relationships more than acts.

But as the saying goes, "Deeds are done in
the flesh." In other words our relationships are
affected by our deeds. Also, "No man is an
island." We all affect each other.

There are many grace-claimers who have
experienced only false grace. These are those
of whom Christ says, "I NEVER knew you!"

This website is dedicated to God and we must
preach and teach nothing but real grace.

Max of the Cross
Valm
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 8:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have alot to think about today as I go about. Shereen, stand your ground, it adds balance to this discussion. Max, I have to agree with you but don't think I have the guts to do it. As I said I did not know if my motivations were grounded and you brought up a good point.

I will close with a thought I had while getting dressed. I live by grace but wish to honor God in all that I do today. I will do the best job I can. There are many elements out there that would bring unhappiness to myself and my family if I indulge in them. God give me the wisdom to make good choices.
Max
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 8:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Val, for that beautiful thought. I
have a text for you (Hebrews 10:12-14 NIV):

"When this priest [Jesus] had offered for all
time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the
right hand of God. Since that time he waits for
his enemies to be made his footstool,
because by one sacrifice he had made
PERFECT FOREVER those who are being
made holy."

You are already perfect, Val, perfect -- perfect
forever and ever amen!

Max of the Cross
Cas
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 9:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Val,
Regarding taking off your earrings etc. when you are around your family-it may take you some time and prayer to work up the nerve to be yourself in front of them. It took me a few years til I could wear my jewelry in front of my family, but I became so convicted that it is not wrong and they would have to accept that I would not live a legalistic lie anymore.
There are still a lot of issues that they do not know about my new found grace related gospel, and I know in time I will have to reveal it to them.
I hear you when you say it is easier to keep the peace.
These family members have always been more concerned that their children are keeping the Sabbath than whether they have a relationship with the Lord!
Grace to you.
~CAS~
Denisegilmore
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If smoking is wrong, then I should refrain from fellowship until I get it right.

God Bless,
Denise
Maryann
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi All,

Whoa......what a great discussion!

Shereen,

The moderators of this forum give incredable
le-way to the content of the discussions here.

We that take part in this forum, are Christians at different ages and growth of our Christian lives.

Your stand on the above issues are great and admirable. You come from a background that drives home very hard the reality of drugs and alcohol.

You are here for a reason!;-)) Your post has most likely been read by someone that really needed to hear what you said! NEVER STRAY FROM YOUR STAND!

George is at a different place than you. He has a lot of questions and like the rest of us, has struggles too. His post has most likely been read by someone that needed to read just that.

For myself, I'm soooo thankful that when I TRIED to become a heavy drinker, God had an up-chuck valve installed. That kept me from a multitude of evil. I mention this because I want others to understand that what ever happened in their lives before they were Christians or after they were Christians, GOD HAD A PLAN. (For me to apparently have an allergy to alcohol and get a headache from a glass of wine with a meal of 1/2 a beer is also in God's plan)

I find it very easy to talk about personal things like that!;-) That may give a person that has had heaps of guilt piled on them over the years to say, "Hey, someone else attempted something stupid." Or, "Someone else has the same problems, feelings, etc. etc as I," and get support from it.

Anyway, again.....I appreciated your post and can feel the pain you expressed running out my screen. Please continue to post as you are an important part of the FULL SPECTRUM of discussion here:-]] Remember, you are like the rest of us, are here by God's purpose;-)) And I'm sorry if I offended you in any way in a previous post.

Upward and onward.......Maryann

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