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Max
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 1:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

American Heart Association: ONE TO SIX
GLASSES OF WINE EACH WEEK MAY CUT
YOUR STROKE RISK BY ONE THIRD

Apostle Paul advised the young missionary
evangelist Timothy, ìDrink no longer water, but
use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and
thine often infirmities.î NIV 1 Timothy 5:23.

Paul off the wall? Evidently not. For scientific
evidence keeps piling up about the positive
health benefits of ìa little wineî for protective
health benefits.

Now, according to the reliable American Heart
Association (AHA), a 16-year study suggests
that wine may have a protective effect against
stroke.

In the December 3, 1998 issue of the AHA
scientific journal STROKE, Danish
researchers report on a 16-year study of
13,329 people. Those who drank one to six
glasses of wine per week enjoyed a 34
percent lower risk of stroke THAN THOSE
WHO NEVER OR HARDLY EVER DRANK
WINE. Those consumed wine daily had a 32
percent risk reduction.

One reason for wineís protective effects, say
the researchers, may be wineís FLAVONOIDS
and TANNINS. These are natural chemicals in
certain fruits and vegetables that help slow the
development of atherosclerotic plaque, the
scabby gunk that builds up on the insides of
blood vessel walls and cause heart attacks
and strokes.

"There may be a beneficial effect," says lead
researcher Thomas Truelsen, M.D., of the
Institute of Preventive Medicine, Copenhagen.

The study was part of the Copenhagen City
Heart Study conducted from January 1977
through December 1992 and involved 6,067
men and 7,262 women between the ages of
45 and 84. Over the 16-year span, 833 people
had strokes.

Study participants were asked whether they
drank beer, wine or spirits and how frequently
they drank:

Frequency group one: "never/hardly ever."
Frequency group two: "monthly."
Frequency group three: "weekly."
Frequency group four: "daily."

People who drank wine enjoyed a significantly
decreased risk of stroke in all frequency
groups COMPARED WITH THOSE WHO
NEVER OR HARDLY EVER DRANK WINE.

Even taking into account other risk factors --
such as PHYSICAL INACTIVITY, DIABETES,
HIGH BLOOD CHOLESTEROL AND OBESITY
-- the researchers still found a positive benefit
for those who drank wine.

Study co-authors:
Morten Gronbaek, M.D., Ph.D.
Peter Schnohr, M.D.
Gudrun Boysen, D.M.Sc.

AHA COMMENTS:

1. ìThe American Heart Association does not
recommend that individuals start drinking to
reduce their risk of heart disease and stroke.
Studies have shown higher risks of
cardiovascular disease associated with
excessive alcohol consumption.î

2. ìThe AHA recommends consultation with
your doctor or health care professional.î

Was Paul right or wrong about Timothy? You
decide.

For more information go to:

http://www.americanheartassociation.com/

Still, "It is better not to eat meat or drink wine
or to do anything else that will cause your
brother to fall." Paul again, Romans 14:21

God bless you all,

Max of the Cross
Lydell
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 8:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max, I'm glad you added that final bit. For me that is the crux of the issue. We have several recovering alcoholics in our church. I don't think it would profit them much for those around them to be upholding the idea of even an occassional drink. With alcoholics here and there on both sides of our family tree, I've always warned my sons not to assume they would be the one not to be affected by any genetic tie to the problem. Better to stay away and know for sure you can't be caught up in a problem.
Max
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But we need to avoid extremism, don't you
think, Lydell?

I can't quite bring myself to agree with "Better
to stay away and know for sure you can't be
caught up in a problem."

Scripture doesn't say that. Jesus drank wine.
Paul counselled Timothy to drink it for health
reasons. God commanded the Jewish people
to drink wine at their most sacred feast -- the
seder, the centerpiece of the Passover
festival.

And it was at this seder that Jesus
commanded his disciples to drink wine in
commemoration of his blood to be spilled.

Which raises an interesting question: If SDAs
say baptism by immersion is necessary as
opposed to sprinkling because that's the way
the disciples did it, then why don't they say that
real wine is necessary at communion
because that's that way the disciples drank it?

Doesn't make any sense to me. Does it to
you?
Lorinc
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 10:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Max (and/or anyone else disposed to answer),

Can you give me a brief tutorial on Wine in the New Testament? :-) There was some Baptist influence in my upbringing, and of course the Baptists agree with the Adventists and other conservative groups in saying that the "wine" in the New Testament is the unfermented "fruit of the vine." The Greek, 'oinos' or something like that, can be either fermented or unfermented, or so I've always been taught.

This is another area where the SDA position has always seemed to make sense, for example: Why would Jesus miraculously create gallons and gallons of intoxicating wine after guests had already been drinking for days, when the Bible condemns drunkenness as a sin? Also, when fermentation is sometimes used as a symbol for sin, how can fermented wine be symbolic of "[Christ's] blood of the New Covenant" ?

You know the arguments better than I do; :-) How do you address them from your current perspective?

Not looking for contention, just enlightenment!

- Lorin
Denisegilmore
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speaking as a recovering alcoholic, I will say that for me, taking a drink would be deadly. On the other hand, I have family members that do have their wine and are in great health. I'm the one with the strokes, they are stroke free thus far. Look at George Burnes! I would say that for those not recovering from alcohol abuse, it is not a bad thing IF they can handle a drink and stop there.
I attended a Church in Salt lake City that served wine at all of the feasts, including communion. Real wine, not grape juice. Infact, when I started attending Church again in my adult years and was at a communion service and grape juice was served, I thought that strange.
I have a neighbor who is a recovering alcoholic and he visits. Him and I were talking about this last week. He told me that for several years this wine at communion didn't seem to get him to drinking. But one time, after communion, he had this compelling urge to go to the nearest bar and belt down a few. With that thought, he panicked, knowing that it was his alcholism acting up and trying to lie to him that he could have just a few drinks. Thankfully he didn't enter that bar but the idea that even the little bit of wine served at communion had us both a bit nervous about real wine being served at communion. For myself, I wouldn't dare take even that little bit, for I know that I would be on a rip roaring drunk directly after service. But that's me. I'm a die hard alcoholic that wouldn't think of taking any chances so I refrain from any alcohol, even if it were communion.
God Bless,
Denise
Valm
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a story about grape juice for communion. Once when my parents were visiting I went to church with them and there was communion. Joseph was about four at the time an accustomed to communion in the church we attend. When the grape juice was passed he took a drink and looked at me with great puzzlement and exclaimed in a loud voice, "This isn't wine, its apple juice." Did the heads ever turn.

This is one of the points my husband has always found very strange about "fundie" churches as he calls them. And I am inclined to agree.

You omitted mentioning that JESUS TURNED WATER INTO WINE at a wedding feast. I can not imagine that he would do this act and then expect us not to drink wine. I can not imagine he would confuse the issue by turning water into nonalcoholic wine as this would given the appearance of condoning it.

There is also the parable of new wine into old wineskins, which I can't find off hand. This is clearly real wine. I can not imagine that Christ would use this in his parable if it is something we should be avoiding in our everyday lives.
Max
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Lorin,

As far as I'm aware oinos in the New
Testament always refers to fermented wine
and never to unfermented wine unless the
reference is to "new wine." But I'll have to
check that when I have more time.

They had no way of preserving grape juice
other than allowing it to ferment. (I've seen no
credible archaeological support for the
contention that they powdered the juice and
reconstituted it later with water.)

But this is just my memory. I'll have to check.
Max
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lorin,

I just checked Matthew 9:17 in the NIV:
"Neither do men pour new wine into old
wineskins. If they do, the sknis will burst, the
wine will run out and the wineskins will be
ruined. No, they pour new wine into new
wineskins, and both are preserved."

The NIV text note to this verse: "new
wineskins. In ancient times goatskins were
used to hold wine. As the fresh grape juice
fermented, the wine would expand, and the
neew wineskin would stretch. But a used skin,
already stretched, would break. Jesus brings
a newness that cannot be confined within the
old forms."

Here is an example of using the term "new
wine" that unambiguously means
"unfermented grape juice."

And here is the same example of using the
term "wine" to mean fermented grape juice.

My tendency is to think that SDAs and others
who try to say -- as Ellen white did
consistently -- that the New Testament use of
the word "wine" (oinos) could mean either
fermented or unfermented grape juice has NO
SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT.

But this is not a definitive study. Do you think
you could consult some reference sources
and report back to us?
Max
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 1:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And the above also serves as an example of
fermentation referring not to sin, but to the
saving grace of Jesus Christ!
Valm
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What do you think the text from Luke 5:39 means (other than they are obviously talking about wine) "No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better."
Valerie
Darrell
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 4:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max quoted:
"One reason for wine?s protective effects, say
the researchers, may be wine?s FLAVONOIDS
and TANNINS. These are natural chemicals in
certain fruits and vegetables that help slow the
development of atherosclerotic plaque, the
scabby gunk that builds up on the insides of
blood vessel walls and cause heart attacks
and strokes."

This conclusion seems to support the idea that the real benefit is obtained from the fruit, not the alcohol. Is this true? If so, then the best action to take would be to drink more fruit juice, and avoid the undesireable side effects of excessive alcohol. This could benefit even the recovering alcoholics.
Lorinc
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 4:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max wrote:

>But this is not a definitive study. Do you
>think you could consult some reference sources
>and report back to us?

An excellent suggestion; I'd be happy to. Let me check some references when I get home to my library and I'll post a summary. :-)

- Lorin
Max
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darrell,

Excellent observation.

It's too early to tell. Other studies seem to
indicate that the beneficial effect comes more
from the alcohol itself than other components
in beers, wines, and spirits.

I plan to report on this when I get time.

Thanks for applying your scientific mind to this
issue.
Max
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darrell,

Here's what medical researchers have to say
in answer to your query about whether it is the
fruit juice or the alcohol that protects against
diseases of the heart and blood vessels.

SOME STUDIES ATTRIBUTE THE
PROTECTION TO A SPECIFIC EFFECT OF
WINE;6,7 OTHER STUDIES ATTRIBUTE IT TO
ANY TYPE OF ALCOHOL.

This statement was made by the following
medical researchers:

Leon A Simons, MD, FRACP, Associate
Professor of Medicine; University of New
South Wales Lipid Research Department, St
Vincent's Hospital, Sydney, New South Wales.

Judith Simons, MACS, Analyst-Programmer.
University of New South Wales Lipid
Research Department, St Vincent's Hospital,
Sydney, New South Wales.

John McCallum, DPhil, Professor and Dean.
Faculty of Health, University of Western Sydney
MacArthur, Sydney, New South Wales.

Yechiel Friedlander, PhD, Associate Professor
in Epidemiology. Department of Social
Medicine, Hebrew University - Hadassah
Hospital, Jerusalem, Israel.

Michael Ortiz, PhD, Health Outcomes
Manager. Pfizer Pty Ltd, Sydney, New South
Wales.
Valm
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 8:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is my understanding that tannins are produced in the process of fermentation. I am aware that grape seed extract has flavanoids, but I believe the falvanoids are more concentrated in wine as opposed to grape juice. I have no reference to this to offer.

The bottom line is that wine is Biblical. Jesus drank it, he turned water into wine at the wedding feast, he passed a cup to his disciples using it as a symbol of his atoning blood. He referred to it in parables.

I am sorry for those who can not have wine due to alcoholism. I do not know how this fits into the big picture of Christianity other than in the compassion for and the support we give to our fellows who suffer from this disease.
Max
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Val,

The bottom line is biblical and must always
be. I have staked my entire life on Jesus
Christ. He is God. As God he is also the Word
of God who was in the beginning with God.
Scripture is the word of God only in the sense
that it is the only divinely inspired record we
have of him:

1. The prophecies of him before the first
Christmas of Genesis through Malachi and,

2. The infinitely superior eyewitness /
earwitness / handwitness ("we touched him
with our hands") of Matthew through
Revelation.

Sorry, but the word of God ends with
Revelation 22:18-21 where God through this
"we touched him with our hands" witness
issues an anathema, a holy curse:

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the
prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything
to them, God will add to him the plagues
described in this book. And if anyone takes
words away from this book of prophecy, God
will take away from him his share in the tree of
life and in the holy city, which are described in
this book.

"He who testifies to these things [Christ] says,
'Yes, I am coming soon [written down no later
than about AD 95].'"

"Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

"The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's
people. Amen."

That's it. That's all they wrote.

Sorry, Ellen, wherever you are.

Sorry, General Conference, wherever you are.

Sorry for you and your feckless plight, but still
rejoicing always in the Lord and in him alone,

And therefore praising God for you, Val, you
redeemed one, you,

Max of the Cross
Valm
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 10:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The kids are tucked in and on that very nice posting I will tuck myself in. Goodnight all and peaceful dreams. Valerie
Max
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ps, now that Val has tucked herself in:

Those who have been saying for 156 years,
"Science has been confirming Ellen G. White,"
had better say again if they are to know what's
good for them, "It is Scripture that science has
been confirming all along."

It is only "science falsely so called" that has
been confirming her.

NIV Isaiah 8 "For my thoughts are not your
thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways and my
thoughts than your thoughts."

May it ever be so,

Max of the Cross

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