| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
WHY YOUR CHURCH IS PREACHING ìA DIFFERENT GOSPEL,î ìA JESUS OTHER THAN THE JESUS WE PREACHED,î AND ìA DIFFERENT SPIRITî FROM THE TRUE ìGet ready for Jesus to come!î Isnít this the message Doug Batchelor and other SDA evangelists knowingly and deliberately direct toward already-saved Christ followers? Christians who worship God faithfully in church every Sunday morning? ìYou are not ready!î And isnít this what they really mean? For if you have to get ready, youíre NOT ready! Right? Get the menace? The gospel is insufficient! Free costly grace doesn't get the job done! Before you can be admitted into heaven you have to Stand Before God Without a Mediator! The One who said "I will never leave you or forsake you" must leave you and forsake you. And you must go through a time of trouble the like of which has never been seen before upon the face of the earth. All without Christ! Not the devil, though! Thus does do they instantly from you your certainty of salvation. For if you are not ready for Jesus to come you are NOT saved! "What then," asks this born-again Christian, "do I still lack?" Replies the SDA evangelist: 1. You must accept the fact that your salvation was not complete on the cross or when Christ sat down at the right hand of the Father -- but it only began to be completed in 1844. 2. You must start keeping the Sabbath in order to obtain the seal of God and stop your Sunday worship, for that is the mark of the beast. 3. You must pay me tithe. 4. You must stop drinking wine. 5. You must remove your wedding band from off your finger and never mind that suddenly threatened husband of yours! 6. You must stop eating pork and all other unclean meats. (Never mind that Jesus declared all foods clean in Mark 7:19.) In fact, before Jesus can come you must stop eating meat altogether, for, "Those who persist in eating the flesh of dead animals will go from God's people to walk with them no more." --EGW. (It's okay to WEAR their hides, though.) 7. And not only that, but you have to accept Ellen G. White as God's only latter-day prophet and as the sole infallible interpreter of Scripture, as one who has authority to add to and take away from Scripture. 8. Be rebaptized! -- by immersion. 9. Let others defend you and your country by bearing arms in wartime. 10. Etcetera (such as send your kids to SDA schools) .... THIS is what you must do to be saved. And even then you won't be, for you haven't preached this so-called "gospel" to the entire world yet, have you? For Christ cannot come till you do! Legalism? Pharisaism? You decide. Christianity it is not. Therefore the following prophecies are fulfilled by SDA evangelism: (NIV) Matthew 24:10 At that time [ìthe end of the ageî] many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many FALSE prophets will appear and deceive many people. ... 24 For FALSE Christs and FALSE prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. (NIV) 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if someone comes to you and preaches A JESUS OTHER than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive A DIFFERENT SPIRIT from the one you received, or A DIFFERENT GOSPEL from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. Max of the Cross | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, I'm continually amazed at how "Christianity" was cheapened when I was an SDA. Ohhhhh, those poooooooor lost people, was a much used phrase in our home. How sad to have lost fellowship with God's family in the name of remnantism! Off to the pagan tree farm;-)....Maryann | ||
| Lorinc |
<Sigh>.... Hi Max, I write this with humilty and kindness. You have an obvious burden to reach your brothers and sisters in Adventism, and to cause them to thoughtfully confront the problems in their belief system. That's a laudable goal, and, as you said of me in a recent post, "I'm sure your heart is right." But in all meekness, I must say, my brother, that I believe you're going overboard in your recent posts, and presenting an exaggerated caricature of Adventism, a "straw man," if you will. Granted that you've seen a lot more of Adventism, and Adventists, than I have in my decade of membership. But I can honestly say the following in response to your post, above: >"What then," asks this born-again Christian, >"do I still lack?" [to be ready for Jesus] >Replies the SDA evangelist: >3. You must pay me tithe. I have never, ever heard tithe-paying presented as a salvation issue! As a former treasurer and finance committee member, I know that roughly 60% of SDA church members would be hell-bound by this criteria. FEW Adventists pay an "honest" tithe; even fewer (20% or so) support their local church financially. > 4. You must stop drinking wine. I have never heard the alcohol question presented as a salvation issue. Ditto vegetarianism. >5. You must remove your wedding band from >off your finger and never mind that suddenly >threatened husband of yours! I wore a wedding ring during my whole time as an elder, with no complaints. Again, I know there are regional and even congregational differences, but I have *never* heard jewelry presented as a salvation issue, except in print, in a Joe Crews 'Amazing Facts' leaflet. But 'Amazing Facts' is an independent ministry, not the church. > 8. Be rebaptized! -- by immersion. You can also become a member by profession of faith, if you have been baptized previously by another denomination. I've always been taught that water baptism is extremely desireable, but by no means required for salvation (e.g., the thief on the cross). >9. Let others defend you and your country by >bearing arms in wartime. It's my understanding that the decision to bear arms is a personal one, though the church encourages non-combatant status. I've never heard an SDA "authority figure" even presume to touch this one, much less present it as a salvation thing. >10. Etcetera (such as send your kids to SDA >schools) .... And once again, this is not the official position of the church. As I alluded to over in the "You are this vine" thread, there are PLENTY of areas in which Adventist doctrine and EGW's visions are BLATANTLY unbiblical -- we don't need to exaggerate. Quite honestly, if I was a "seeking" Adventist, lurking here for some answers, and I read a bunch of postings demonizing my church for stuff I *knew from experience* wasn't accurate or representative of what I was seeing in my church, it would make me more likely to *stay* in Adventism -- figuring, "if all the criticisms are like these, there must not be anything to *any* of them!" Know what I mean? And that would be unfortunate. Anyway, I'm leaving myself wide open here, venturing to post thusly to the patriarch and de-facto moderator of FAFF. All I can say is that this is how I honestly feel impressed, and that all of this is offered in a humble spirit, with no desire to hurt or offend. God Bless, Lorin | ||
| Valm |
Lorin, I do not know what church you went to but I know what happened in the church I went to. Never was there a person allowed to be baptized with their wedding ring on. It was a common occurence that people removed them for a while and returned to wearing them after baptism or when they were not at church. Members who did wear them were asked to remove them if they were participating in leadership roles of the church. Never was there a person allowed to be baptized if they were known to continue drinking or smoking. At the church I attended tithe and offerings were preached as a requirement. Not only to pay them but to pay them properly to the GC. The other ones mentioned above were tolerated but your status as a member with leadership roles was seriously compromised. There is varying degrees of tolerance from region to region on these things also. I can garauntee you that the churches in California are much less conservitive than in the Bible Belt States of which I grew up. Then there are many things that are tolerated in the SDA church that are seriously counseled against by EGW. I have been out of Adventism for about 20 years. In this time my family has read more and more of EGW. Each visit with them they have added more to their to do list or their to don't list. It is my belief that the system is set up to get people in the door with bare minimum work requirements and then to progressively add more on. My family so much admits it when they work with folks on diet; they tell them that they need to make a gradual progression in these matters. This may not happen to all members or in all SDA churches but it happens frequently enough. My last thought here is to go back to the postings of EGW writings warning people that they were not ready in their present state of behavior to make it to God's kingdom. Perhaps they were tolerated in the church pew, but not yet ready. I will later find and pull those over to review. Gotta go. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Lorin, I will add a few words in response. The Church that I attended would not baptize me. I smoked and wouldn't believe that Ellen White was a prophetess, in the sense that they use and I also answered 'no' to 'Do I believe that the SDA Church is God's remnant Church'. I know of quite a number of folks that truly believe that Sunday Worship is the mark of the beast, infact most of them. I know most also believe that the sabbath is the 'seal of God'. As to wedding rings, I gave away all my jewelry away because of what I was taught about it worshipping the 'sun god' etc. Recently or not too long ago, I do know that GC okay'd the wedding rings. Also, raising hands in Church while singing was frowned upon and I was told by another member that that's because it calls on evil spirits. There are alot of things like pork eating that is not okay and eating pork will keep you from baptism. Working on the sabbath kept someone I know from being baptized. I know of many too, that feel if they don't pay their tithe, then they are in deep trouble. Where would they get such a thought if not from the Church itself? Infact, one woman I know real well, panics when she forgets to get her tithe in on sabbath and makes a special trip, no matter how unsafe the driving condition is, to get this tithe to the Church. Otherwise, she feels as though she has done something that'll cost her her salvation. This is so very sad to witness. These are my experiences in the SDA Church. There are, of course, doctrinal reasons for my leaving the Church besides all these side issues. Still, I must confess, that the people, for the most part were very kind, and sincere. I've learned alot of good things while attending the Church. I saw alot of love, patience and charity too. The people that lived out those principles are the ones that I learned from. For that, I am grateful to have met such people. It was unfortunate that due to all that other stuff, especially the doctrinal reasons and ultimately refusal of baptism, I had to leave. Truly I miss alot of the people. I am glad to have gone to that Church and see values that are not necessarily seen in other denominations I've attended. The children are very polite and this impressed me greatly. Although using children to collect monies was not okay in my mind. The meals afterwards were usually very pleasant, although lacking meat :). Speaking of meals, this Thanksgiving I was helping deliver food to the needy with the SDA Church and to my delight, there was a food basket for me in there. This gave me some hope that my friends of the SDA Church will eventually call or come by to pay a visit. It felt good to know they thought about me. Upon my arrival that day, I was greeted by many a smiling face and a big warm hug. This too, helps me and I'm sure it helps them too. We need not be enemies, was the message. The sabbath school was always intriguing, however the doctrines were not always correct. To this I would speak up but this is another thing I was taught 'we don't do'. I'm sorry to say that there were far too many legalities, traditional dogma and heresies, for me to continue attending. I am sorry to say too, that quite a few of the people that knew me in the Church, think I'm an apostate, heretic or the antichrist and will have nothing to do with me. I never thought that would happen upon my leaving but nonetheless, it has. These are my personal opinions and may not necessarily be seen in this light to others. God Bless you, Denise | ||
| Lorinc |
Val and Denise, Thank you both so much for sharing your experiences in this area. I can relate to a lot of what you wrote, and all of it is helpful. Answering Val's implied question, I spent most of my time as an SDA in Southeast Michigan -- which I gather is generally regarded as being a pretty conservative conference, but I seem to have fared better than either of you, nonetheless! :-) I knew a half-dozen Pastors there, and had a passing acquaintance with a few conference officers, and found them to be wonderful, Christ-centered Christians, each and every one (within the context of Adventism, of course. I wouldn't want to get any of them accused of being a closet evangelical! :-). I've also held membership in a church in the Phoenix, Arizona area. A generally older , very, very pro-EGW congregation, but with two marvelous, grace-oriented Pastors who I appreciated very much. I've *visited* churches in Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Missouri, and the Florida panhandle. But admittedly, that's still a small sample size. Thanks for providing a broader perspective. Denise, I'd never heard the one about jewelry and the sun-god... wow. I can totally relate to the things you've gone through since leaving, and I was happy to hear about your successful "joint venture" for the Thanksgiving food baskets. Hopefully there's more to come! Blessings to you both, Lorin | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Lorin, Yes, I was very happy with that joint venture too. I'm hoping for more engagements together soon. We have Christmas yet and I know there are blessings to be handed out to the needy by the SDA. I hope to be a part of that as well. Personally, I really enjoy it when we can all get together, forget about OUR differences and focus on the needy for a time. This doeth the heart wonders for everyone involved. For your Scripture referrence regarding the 'jewelry and sun-god connection' read: Gen. 35:2,4; Deut. 4:19; Deut 17:2-5; Exodus 33:5,22; Acts 7:39-43 and Rev. 17 These are the Scriptures given to me at that time I was attending Church. You have been around Lorin and have seen alot more than myself but we all have different experiences as I can now see. God Bless you in your journey. While I'm posting to you, I would like to extend my study on the 'mark of the beast' until February before presenting it here on this forum. Just wanted to inform you so you would not be looking for it, within a month, as I had originally spoken. Gods Blessings on you, Denise | ||
| Valm |
Lorin, Another story that came to mind is that one of my brothers is not giving all of his tithe to the church but some of it goes to other ministries. When he made this publicly known, he was denied leadership positions in the church. He can not be a deacon or a SS teacher. He is "allowed" to usher and his wife and him have been "allowed" to do a cooking school on the premises. That is a pretty strong statement about how this particular church views tithe. Denise, I read all of the texts except Rev 17 and while they have harsh counseling against worship of false Gods including the sun, moon and stars, I do not see a connection to jewelry. Am I missing something? Valerie | ||
| Max |
Greetings, Lorin. I always appreciate your counsel, since it drives me to be absolutely sure of my points before I make them. In the case of tithing, if you have never heard it presented as a salvation issue, then all the SDA evangelists and ministers youíve heard and all the SDA books and articles youíve read have been seriously derelict in duty. Those speakers and writers need to hear Ellen G. White on the subject. Witness: ********* ...God declares that he will abundantly bless those who are faithful in bringing him their TITHES and offerings, but that the CURSE of Heaven will rest upon those who are dishonest in this matter. God forbid that the CURSE of heaven should rest upon this congregation because of DISHONESTY toward the Lord. God forbid that any one of us should FAIL OF GAINING the precious boom of ETERNAL LIFE. Do not ROB God. --Ellen G. White, The General Conference Bulletin, April 8, 1901, paragraph 17. Article Title: Will a Man Rob God? ********* A mere assent to the truth is not enough. There must be prayerful labor with those who embrace the truth, until they shall be convicted of their SINS and shall seek God and be converted. Then they should be INSTRUCTED in regard to the CLAIMS of God upon them in TITHES and offerings. They MUST learn that the TITHING system is BINDING upon God's people in these last days as truly as it was upon ancient Israel. -- Ellen G. White, Gospel Workers, page 98, paragraph 2. Chapter Title: The Minister ********* NO ONE can excuse himself from paying his TITHES and offerings to the Lord. -- Ellen G. White, Special on Tithing, page 20, paragraph 5. Faithful Record Possible. ********* The Lord will NOT hold GUILTLESS those who are deficient in doing the work that he REQUIRES at their hands ... and doing all their DUTY; in ALLOWING NO NEGLECT which will bring the THREATENED CURSE upon his people. A CURSE is pronounced upon all who withhold the TITHE from God. -- Ellen G. White, Special on Tithing, page 20, paragraph 3. Subhead: A Word to Ministers and Elders. ********* I will later post support from Ellen G. White regarding the other issues you have challenged. Blessings, Max of the Cross | ||
| Denisegilmore |
SYSTEMATIC BENEVOLENCE Testimony to the Church, Vol. 1, page 220, beginning with the second paragraph. This entire chapter is dedicated to tithing. Ellen G. White wrote this. I will post but a few sentences of her own words regarding tithing. "Some have not come up and united in the plan of systematic benevolence, excusing themselves because they were not free from debt." on down a few sentences; "I saw that they should render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. Some feel conscientious to 'owe no man anything,' and think that God can require nothing of them until their debts are all paid. Here they deceive themselves. They fail to render to God the things that are his. EVERY ONE MUST bring to the Lord a suitable offering." down a few sentences. "Some have felt under sacred obligations to their children. They must give each a portion, but feel themselves unable to raise means to aid the cause of God. They make the excuse that they have a duty to their children. This may be right, but their first duty is to God." same page. "Rob not God by withholding from him your tithes and offerings. It is the FIRST SACRED DUTY to render to God a suitable proportion." same page. "I saw that anciently the covetousness of some led them to withhold a suitable proportion; they made their offering stinted. THIS WAS RECORDED IN HEAVEN, AND THEY WERE CURSED IN THEIR HARVEST, AND THEIR FLOCKS JUST AS THEY WITHHELD." This goes on and on. Read the Chapter. Chapter Title is SYSTEMATIC BENEVOLENCE. Testimony to the Church Vol. 1, page 220 onward. here is two more sentences from the same chapter. "ALL ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE AN INTEREST IN THIS WORK. Those who use tobacco, tea, and coffee should lay aside those idols, and put their cost into the treasury of the Lord." Hope this helps and God Bless, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Valerie, A quick explanation. I can elaborate later on this matter. But keep in mind all the good passages that are contrary thinking as far as jewelry is concerned. You have the right reading of those Scriptures. However the SDA's do not wear jewelry because of these Scriptures contending that because jewelry was melted down to make the golden calf, then the jewelry is all symbolic of worshipping idols. When Moses had come down from the Mount, Aaron had made a golden calf out of jewelry of gold and God was angry. Later God tells all the people to take off their ornaments (jewelry) until He decides what to do with them. Because of these Scriptures it is then taken to the Woman on the beast in Revelation 17, where she is described as having glittering gold on her. This entire jewelry forbidding is based on the fact that Aaron made a golden calf for the people to worship, so hence, from then on, ALL jewelry is indicitive of worshipping idols. I hope that I'm explaining this so it is understandable. Read all the texts again, but now read them with this thought in mind. You will see what I mean. It is taken to the extreme measure as with a few other topics I could name. God Bless you, Denise | ||
| Max |
Dear Lorin, In reply to my statement that the SDA church forbids moderate wine drinking for any reason, you wrote: ^^I have never heard the alcohol question presented as a salvation issue. ^^ But if alcohol is a test of fellowship in the SDA denomination -- and it is -- then it IS a salvation issue, wouldnít you agree? Consider, as well, the following definitive quotations from the SDAís final word on scripture, ìthe spirit of prophecy,î Ellen G. White, whose prophetic claim is also a test of fellowship: ******** MODERATE DRINKING is the school in which men are receiving an education for the drunkard's career. So gradually does SATAN lead away from the strongholds of temperance [total abstinence], so insidiously do the harmless wine and cider exert their influence upon the taste, that the highway to drunkenness is entered upon ALL unsuspectingly. ... SATAN keeps the mind in a fever of unrest; and the poor victim IMAGINING himself perfectly secure, goes on and on, until every barrier is broken down, every principle sacrificed. --Ellen G. White, Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, March 25, 1884, paragraph 5. Article Title: May Christians Manufacture Wine and Cider?. Also: Healthful Living, page 112, paragraph 3. Chapter Title: Stimulants. Also: R. and H., 1884, No. 13. ************************** ìThey [sinners] show the effect of ERROR upon them by ... eating and drinking with the drunken. [Never mind that Jesus Christ himself did this very thing!]î --Ellen G. White, Manuscript Releases Volume Seven, page 182, paragraph 3. Chapter Title: Reasons for Apostasy in the SDA Church. Also: Letter 131, 1900, pp. 2, 3. (To Brother Daniells, October 14, 1900.) ************************** Look at those that drink wine and beer and strong drink. ... How many thousands and millions of dollars have gone into the DEVIL's treasury to perpetuate WICKEDNESS, and to carry on DISSOLUTION, CORRUPTION, and CRIME. --Ellen G. White, Temperance, page 30, paragraph 3. Chapter Title: Alcohol and Society. Subhead: Millions for the Devil's Treasury. Also: Manuscript 20, 1894. ************************** The Lord ... has FORBIDDEN their [wine and other alcoholic beverages] use, and ENFORCED His PROHIBITIONS with strong warnings and THREATENINGS. --Ellen G. White, Temperance, page 42, paragraph 4. Subhead: Chapter Title: Alcohol and Society ************************** God EXPLICITLY FORBIDS the use of wine and strong drink. --Ellen G. White, Temperance, page 92, paragraph 1. Chapter Title: Milder Intoxicants. Subhead: A Warning Regarding the Effect of Wine. Also: Signs of the Times, July 8, 1880. ************************** A SINGLE glass of wine may open the door of TEMPTATION which will lead to habits of DRUNKENNESS. --Ellen G. White, Temperance, page 95, paragraph 1. Chapter Title: Milder Intoxicants. Subhead: A Possible Precursor to Habitual Drunkenness. Also: Testimonies, vol. 4, p. 578. ************************** The Bible NOWHERE SANCTIONS the use of intoxicating wine. The wine that Christ made from water at the marriage feast of Cana was the pure juice of the grape. --Ellen G. White, Temperance, page 97, paragraph 1. Chapter Title: Milder Intoxicants. Subhead: 4. Wine in the Bible. Sub-subhead: The Wine at Cana Not Fermented. ************************** The Bible NOWHERE TEACHES the use of intoxicating wine, either as a beverage or as a symbol of the blood of Christ. ... We URGE that [wine] should never be placed upon the Lord's table. ... We PROTEST that Christ never made intoxicating wine; such an act would have been contrary to all the teachings and example of His life. ... The wine which Christ manufactured from water by a miracle of His power, was the pure juice of the grape. --Ellen G. White, Temperance, page 97, paragraph 3. Chapter Title: Milder Intoxicants. Subhead: Wine Recommended in Bible Not Intoxicating. Also: Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1878 ************************** NEVER take tea, coffee, beer, wine, or any spirituous liquors. --Ellen G. White, Temperance, page 101, paragraph 1. Chapter Title: Milder Intoxicants. Subhead: 6. Temperance and Total Abstinence. Also: Review and Herald, July 29, 1884. Also: Counsels on Diet and Foods, page 421, paragraph 3. Chapter Title: Beverages. Also: R. & H., July 29, 1884 ************************** Press home the temperance [total abstinence] question with all the FORCE of the Holy Spirit's unction. Show the NEED of total abstinence from ALL intoxicating liquor. --Ellen G. White, Temperance, page 240, paragraph 1. Chapter Title: The Challenge of the Hour. Also: Evangelism, page 534 ************************** They [many] will see the EVIL of intoxicating liquors, and that total abstinence is the ONLY platform on which God's people can CONSCIENTIOUSLY stand. --Ellen G. White, Counsels on Health, page 634, paragraph 3. Chapter Title: Holiness of Life. Subhead: Total Abstinence. Also: Testimonies for the Church, vol. 7, p. 75 (1902). ************************** ì...a pledge to abstain from all intoxicating liquor and from tobacco should be presented. Habits of intemperance [abstinence not total] are PREVENTING minds from discerning the importance of the truths which make men wise unto SALVATION. --Ellen G. White, A Call to Medical Evangelism and Health Education, page 39, paragraph 4. Chapter Title: The Temperance Work. Subhead: Pledging to Total Abstinence. Also: Letter 187, 1904. | ||
| Max |
Lorin again, Here is the statement of the SDA denomination's official position on alcoholic beverages: FROM FUNDAMENTAL BELIEF #21: "Since alcoholic beverages ... are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them...." From the Twenty-seven Points of Fundamental Belief of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Available at: http://www.adventist.org/?bbarsection=100 This is most definitely a test of fellowship. I am astounded that you have apparently been totally unaware of this fact. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Dear Lorin, ^^I have *never* heard jewelry presented as a salvation issue, except in print, in a Joe Crews 'Amazing Facts' leaflet. But 'Amazing Facts' is an independent ministry, not the church.^^ Well, Lorin, my friend, the absolutely authoritative ìspirit of prophecyî seems to side more with Joe Crews than with all the SDA evangelists, pastors, writers, TV personalities, radio speakers, academy deans and principals, conference presidents, college and university professors, etc., that you seem to have been exposed to in your entire SDA experience. Note: ***************** Self-denial in dress is a part of our Christian duty. To dress plainly and ABSTAIN from display of JEWELRY and ORNAMENTS OF EVERY KIND is in keeping with our faith. -Ellen G. White, Child Guidance, page 423, paragraph 3. Chapter Title: Teaching the Fundamental Principles of Dress ***************** Professed Christians adorn themselves with JEWELRY, LACES, .... These are IDOLATORS (ST Jan. 26, 1882). -Ellen G. White, S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 2, page 1012, paragraph 1. Chapter Title: 1 Samuel ***************** Christians are NOT to decorate the person .... The ornamentation of the person with jewels ... is a species of IDOLATRY. ... It gives evidence to the world of a heart destitute of the inward adornment..... A lack of spirituality is revealed. -Ellen G. White, Bible Training School, May 1, 1908, paragraph 4. Article Title: The Dress of the Christian ***************** ... human angels ... should carefully avoid ORNAMENTS, which properly belong to INDIAN SQUAWS and AFRICAN PRINCESSES. ... A VULGAR taste is not to be disguised by gold or diamonds. -Ellen G. White, Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, October 31, 1871, paragraph 15. Article Title: Words to Christian Mothers, No. 3. ***************** Christian youth of Battle Creek, I have seen in some of you a love for dress and display which has pained me. ...I have seen a vanity ... that has ... been a reproach to the cause of God. I have marked with pain your ... disposition to ORNAMENT and TRIM your apparel. Some have been so unfortunate as to come into possession of a gold CHAIN or PIN, or both, and have shown bad taste in exhibiting these things by fastening them upon their cloaks to attract attention. -Ellen G. White, Appeal to the Young, page 8, paragraph 1 ***************** Those who have BRACELETS, and wear gold and ORNAMENTS, had better take these IDOLS from their persons and SELL THEM ... and thus practice self-denial. -Ellen G. White, Manuscript Releases Volume Nine, page 117, paragraph 1. Chapter Title: Ellen White on Jewelry | ||
| Denisegilmore |
This last one you posted Max, on the selling their jewelry, really gets me. They sell it to heathens and make money, then convert the heathens to sdas and re sell it and make more money and so on and on it goes. It's a money making racket. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Not only that but in so selling their jewelry to potential converts, are they causing others to fall? or Stumble is a better word. | ||
| Max |
EGW: ìNOT ONE PENNY SHOULD BE SPENTî FOR WEDDING RING If SDA's ìspirit of prophecyî is to be believed, this post -- ìI wore a wedding ring during my whole time as an elder, with no complaints.î -- is only evidence of ìconformity to custom and fashion.î At least in North America. But even overseas wearing a wedding ring will not increase the influence of missionaries as much as ìone jot or tittle.î I feel deeply over this leavening process which seems to be going on among us, in the conformity to custom and fashion. NOT ONE PENNY SHOULD BE SPENT FOR A CIRCLET OF GOLD TO TESTIFY THAT WE ARE MARRIED. In countries where the custom is imperative, we have no burden to condemn those who have their marriage ring; let them wear it if they can do so conscientiously, but let not our missionaries feel that the wearing of the ring will increase their influence one jot or tittle. --Ellen G. White, Ellen G. White Volume 4. The Australian Years 1891-1900, page 196, paragraph 2. Chapter Title: Tasmania -- The Convention and the Wedding. Also: Special Testimonies to Ministers and Workers , No. 3, p. 6 (TM, pp. 180, 181). | ||
| Denisegilmore |
and on that note, I need to hit the hay. Goodnight Max, see ya manana...:) God Bless you much, Denise | ||
| Valm |
Denise, The association is loose at best in my mind. They really goofed turning their jewelry into the golden calf but that doesn't make the jewelry the problem. It was what they did to it. They would have all been better off to keep wearing it!!!! Valerie | ||
| Lorinc |
Good Morning, Max, et. al., I really appreciate the various postings in response to my posting of yesterday afternoon. Scripture tells, us, after all, "In a multitude of counselors there is wisdom." :-) Max, I also enjoy the fact that we can dialogue about such things in a Christian spirit, without resorting to insults or getting in a snit and huffing out of the room -- figuratively speaking. All of this is very instructive for me. I think our viewpoints differ in one fundamental area: You wrote: >But if alcohol is a test of fellowship in >the SDA denomination -- and it is -- then >it IS a salvation issue, wouldnít you agree? That question has a subtle dimension to it. I'm aware that, according to what's often called "historical" Adventism, ultimately the world will be divided into two camps: The Sabbath-keeping SDA's (the saved), and everyone else (the lost). From that perspective, yes, any test of fellowship in the SDA church would also be a salvation issue by definition. However, historical Adventism is not normative for the church as a whole, and many, if not most, current Adventist authors and speakers (and members) acknowledge that there will be non-Adventists in heaven (!!) and some Adventists will be lost. We've surrendered our monopoly on heaven, so to speak. :-) You've got EGW nailed cold, but in terms of the current beliefs and practices of the church, the situation is not so extreme. >This is most definitely a test of fellowship. >I am astounded that you have apparently been >totally unaware of this fact. No need to be astounded! :-) I've been *well* aware that it's a test of fellowship! Again, you're equating "that which is prohibited for Adventists" with "that which Adventists feel is a salvation issue." My position is that this equivalency is not representative of the current beliefs and practices of the church. And finally: >Well, Lorin, my friend, the absolutely >authoritative ìspirit of prophecyî seems to side >more with Joe Crews than with all the SDA >evangelists, pastors, writers, TV >personalities, radio speakers, academy >deans and principals, conference presidents, >college and university professors, etc., that >you seem to have been exposed to in your >entire SDA experience. Amazing, isn't it? (Does that make it an "Amazing Fact" ? :-) Technically, I've never met anyone in some of the categories you listed. Still, you raise an interesting and important point: The beliefs and practices of much of Adventism are inconsistent. 1. All Adventists claim (by virtue of being Adventists) that they accept the writings of Ellen White as an "authoritative source of truth." 2. Yet most Adventists, in their hearts, would disagree with / disbelieve / refuse to accept MANY of Ellen's pronouncements. 3. Thus we have sort of a schizophrenic church, where our daily practices and teachings have evolved, to some extent, from the legalistic, isolationist teachings of our founders. Yet, paradoxically, we still swear allegiance to the supreme authority of the writings of one of those legalistic founders -- even as we reject them by our actions! Hence, your postings are, I think, based on the well-documented teachings of the founders (primarily EGW, of course), which are still accepted, officially. But my perspective dealt more with what I've actually found to be the *practice* in Adventism -- which has been, happily for me, quite different. At any rate, I have to go earn my paycheck now; my boss doesn't buy into this whole "grace" thing.. :-) Blessings to You, Lorin | ||
| Max |
Thanks for that perspective, Lorin. And blessings to you as well. | ||
| Max |
Ps: A split in the SDA church in North America is occurring even as we converse here. I see it as three-way: 1. The "historical Adventist" contingency, (estimated in MANY tens of thousands) -- the "Pharisees and Essenes" -- some of whom enjoy great wealth, such as the family that owns Little Debbie Health Foods availabale at a supermarket near you. 2. The "mainstream" contingency -- behaving hypocritically and "schizophrenically," as Lorin has observed, (estimated in the hundreds of thousands) -- the great unthinking middle of "go-alongers" and "whateverers." 3. The "liberal revisioning" or the "rationalistic professional elite" contingency, (estimated in a FEW tens of thousands) -- "the Saducees" -- with a disproportionately large share of education, position and influence. But fear thou not: Our God is Sovereign and has everything under complete and absolute control, right down to every sparrow that falls. Grace alone, Scripture alone, faith alone..... | ||
| Valm |
Little Debbie? You mean those oatmeal cakes with the cream filling? | ||
| Max |
Dear Lorin, Hereís the truth about the official, historic position of the Seventh-day Adventist church allowing and expecting Protestants, Catholics and others to bear arms in defense of Adventists and their country in wartime: ********************************* ELLEN G. WHITE SPEAKS OUT SABBATHKEEPERS now cannot expect this, and SHOULD NOT, UPON ANY CONSIDERATION, ENGAGE IN THIS TERRIBLE WAR. They have nothing to hope for. The desolating power of God is upon the earth to rend and destroy; the inhabitants of the earth are appointed to the sword, famine, and pestilence. --Ellen G. White, Ms 5, 1862, pp. 1, 2. ("Regarding the Civil War," circa 1862.). In: Manuscript Releases Volume Seven, page 112, paragraph 1. Chapter Title: The Civil War ********************************* SDA HIERARCHY RALLIES TO CAUSE But not having had a long existence as a distinct people, and our organization having but recently been perfected, our sentiments are not yet extensively known. The change in the law renders it necessary that we take a more public stand in the matter. For this reason we now lay before your Excellency the sentiments of SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS, AS A BODY, relative to bearing arms, trusting that you will feel no hesitation in endorsing our claim that, AS A PEOPLE WE come under the intent of the late action of Congress concerning those who ARE CONSCIENTIOUSLY OPPOSED TO BEARING ARMS, and are entitled to the benefits of said laws. --[Signed] John Byington, General Conference; and J. N. Loughborough, Executive Committee George W. Amadon of Seventh-day Adventists, Battle Creek, August 2, 1864. In Ellen G. White Volume 2 The Progressive Years 1862-1876, page 100, paragraph 5. Chapter Title: The War and Its Unexpected Close ********************************* KIND-HEARTED CAESAR SPEAKS OUT I am satisfied that the foregoing statement of principles and practices of the Seventh-day Adventists is correct [THAT BEARING ARMS IN WAR IS SINFUL], and that they are entitled to all the immunities secured by law to those who are conscientiously opposed to bearing arms, or engaging in war. --Governor Austin Blair of Michigan, Ellen G. White Volume 2 The Progressive Years 1862-1876, page 101, paragraph 3. Chapter Title: The War and Its Unexpected Close ********************************* OFFICIAL SDA HISTORIANS WEIGH IN Seventh-day Adventists were now assured of the acceptance by the United States Government of their status as NONCOMBATANTS. It would take some time to determine just how things would work out at local levels. In the meantime CHURCH LEADERS HASTENED TO PREPARE DOCUMENTS THAT A DRAFTED MAN COULD EMPLOY IN DEMONSTRATING HIS ELIGIBILITY FOR NONCOMBATANT STATUS. This was done in two pamphlets, one of twenty-seven pages entitled "Compilation of Extracts, From the PUBLICATIONS OF SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS SETTING FORTH THEIR VIEW OF THE SINFULNESS OF WAR, Referred to in the Annexed Affidavits." The other was a pamphlet of nineteen pages titled "The Views of Seventh-day Adventists Relative to Bearing Arms, as Brought Before the Governors of Several States and the Provost Marshal General With a Portion of the Enrollment Law." Both came from the press very early in 1865. --[statement], Ellen G. White Volume 2 The Progressive Years 1862-1876, page 102, paragraph 4. Chapter Title: The War and Its Unexpected Close ********************************* SDAs DODGE DRAFT In mid-1864 problems related to the war accelerated. Under the draft law passed by Congress on March 3, 1863, there was provision that those conscientiously opposed to bearing arms could be assigned "to duty in the hospitals, or to the care of freedmen," or could, by the payment of $300, be excused from the draft ("The Views of Seventh-day Adventists Relative to Bearing Arms," pp. 3,4). Under these liberal provisions, SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS GENERALLY, IF DRAFTED, PAID $300 AND WERE EXCUSED FROM SERVING. IN THE LIGHT OF THE COUNSEL GIVEN BY GOD THROUGH ELLEN WHITE, it seemed consistent to take this course and thus ESCAPE the many problems of MILITARY SERVICE. --[Statement], Ellen G. White Volume 2 The Progressive Years 1862-1876, page 99, paragraph 1. Chapter Title: The War and Its Unexpected Close Provided , That no person shall be entitled to the benefit of the provisions of this section, unless his declaration of conscientious scruples against bearing arms shall be supported by satisfactory evidence that his deportment has been uniformly consistent with such declaration. ********************************* SDAs EVER ìUNANIMOUSî IN REFUSAL TO DEFEND COUNTRY THE DENOMINATION of Christians calling themselves SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS, taking the Bible as their rule of faith and practice, ARE UNANIMOUS in their views that its teachings are contrary to the spirit and practice of war; hence, THE HAVE EVER BEEN CONSCIENTIOUSLY OPPOSED TO BEARING ARMS. If there is any portion of the Bible which we, as a people, can point to more than another as our creed, it is the law of ten commandments, which we regard as the supreme law, and each precept of which we take in its most obvious and literal import. --[statement], Ellen G. White Volume 2 The Progressive Years 1862-1876, page 100, paragraph 2. Chapter Title: The War and Its Unexpected Close | ||
| Max |
Val, Why do you think Little Debbie Health Foods succeded while Loma Linda Health Foods failed? | ||
| Valm |
That is so funny. On that note I better scoot. My boss doesn't buy into the grace thng at work either. Valerie | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Valerie, You are absolutely correct in seeing the scantiness of the connection between jewelry and idol worshipping. Of course this is a common thing that happens within the ranks of SDAism. Take some obscure texts and creating an entire doctrine out of them, based mostly on assumptions and determined Ellen White advocates. There are many assumptions we could take on hundreds of Scriptural texts, but to do that, is really grasping for that 'peculiarity' that seems to be the gripping goal of the SDA Church. This is my opinion and does not reflect the opinions of others necessarily. Although, if someone is honest with themselves, they cannot but help see that I am stating a reality. Also, in these texts that are against the wearing of jewelry, is the non-existant knowledge of the Scriptures that show jewelry as a good thing. Infact, the parable of the lost son is a good case in point. Or how about how the Holy City is described by John the Revelator. The New Jerusalem is decked with jewels! My belief is that God made these beautiful gems, stones and gold, silver etc. for us to enjoy. Like the flowers on a hill. It is beauty and God made them all. To undermine what God has made good and level it to the ground as something evil is sheer heresy, in my opinion. Would you think that these same people will complain of too much gold and diamonds and rubies, when they get to the Heavenly City? I'll bet my life that they wouldn't dare. The case against jewelry is scanty at best. Reaching to the extreme to be that 'peculiar' people. And why is it that watches are okay'd? or Neck ties for men? Or brochets (sp). If jewelry is forbidden, then in my opinion, stop being a hypocrit and take OFF that neck tie, take OFF that watch, encased with jewels, take of the thingie pinned on your sweater or dress. As a matter of fact, if golden things are forbidden, why do some have inlaid gold china? or silver ware? I know that they would accuse me of going to the extreme but am I? If they are going to stand on those Scriptures, stating that it is idol worshipping to have gold on or gems, then they had better, in my opinion, do themselves a favor and obey their own rule. Get rid of the 'anything that sparkles' in your homes. Afterall, isn't it supposed to be an idol? Whether worn on the body or encased in a cabinet or used as eating utensils,,doesn't matter. Idols are idols. Okay, I'm through with my tangent for now. And although it is scrabbled somewhat, the point is to either go by what you believe or don't. I can't stand a hypocrit and neither can God. God Bless you Valerie, Denise | ||
| Max |
EGW: OFFICIAL SDA POSITION: SEND YOUR KIDS TO SDA SCHOOLS ìThe educational system [SDA schools] ... is the ONLY system of education which Christians can safely follow if they desire to preserve their children in the truth faith. SECULAR schools are not and NEVER were intended for the children of Christians....î -- Ellen G. White, Special Testimonies on Church Schools, page 33, paragraph 4. A Brief History of Christian Schools. -------------------------- ìOne reason why it was NECESSARY to establish institutions of our own was the fact that parents were not able to counteract the influence of the teaching their children were receiving in the PUBLIC SCHOOLS, and the ERROR there taught was leading the youth into FALSE paths. ... In our schools it was specified that the youth were to be taught in the principles of Bible temperance, ... to shun the follies of this DEGENERATE age, ... a second SODOM.î -- Ellen G. White, Special Testimonies on Church Schools, page 12, paragraph 1. Lead-in subhead: Christian Schools. -------------------------- ìThe very foundation of true education is in the fear of the Lord. ... Who of our youth can know anything of what is truth, in comparison with ERROR, unless they are acquainted with the Scriptures?î -- Ellen G. White, Fundamentals of Christian Education, page 135, paragraph 3. Chapter Title: The Book of Books |
