| Author | Message | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Denise, Plan on getting frisked next week! He he he he......just kidding;-))) Seriously, nothing in my Bible says you have to be perfect to fellowship. One sin is just as bad in God's eyes as another. The consequenses can be much different! As to things that affect others such as smoking, politeness is the best rule to follow and I must say, you have ALWAYS been polite. I used to smoke years ago and was always incensed at the insensitivity of so many smokers that that insisted that they had a right to make non-smokers miserable! (I'm not saying that smoking is or is not a sin.) One memorable person at work back in the 80s would take great pleasure in making sure I was in the back seat between him and another guy and would keep the windows up for the 45 minute ride, morning and evening, chain smoke, turn and blow lungfull after lungfull of smoke in my face day after day! I was so sick for the several months that this went on that I was near puking the whole time at work. He said it was his right!;-( And this was happening with the spinless boss in the vehicle!!!! This guy has since died of lung cancer! As did his father just previous to him! Maryann | ||
| Denisegilmore |
My emotions low, very low, my faith weak, very weak, my hours too long, my opposition to often these days, my struggling to have a day off to no avail, my friends turning on me for wanting that day off, too often, my need for silence, not met, losing 5 family members and one friend to death in the past 3 months, took its toll on me, different church members calling to yell at me or chew me out for not living up to their standard or their expectations...all in all, I'm about to throw in the towel. As tears roll off of my face right now, this is not the time for anyone around here to demand my time, this is not the time for more phone calls of angered people because I didn't return their many phone calls to me in the last two days, too many fiery darts and I'm falling, this is not the time to hear that all along, I thought I was saved, only to find out that maybe, just maybe, everyone is right and I'm not saved. Today was not the day. I am at my lowest. May God help me. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Max |
Denise, If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe with all your heart you are saved. Period. Being saved means being made holy and perfect. Hebrews 10:10-14 NIV: "And by that will, WE HAVE BEEN MADE HOLY through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice HE HAS MADE PERFECT FOREVER those who are being made holy." You are perfect and holy despite your sinful nature. Romans 7 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. [1] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Romans 8 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. You are saved despite your smoking, even though smoking is harmful to God's temple: you. Do not stay away from fellowship with other believers because of your smoking. Max of the Cross | ||
| Valm |
Denise, I wished I could give you a BIG HUG and tell you that I am SO SORRY you are feeling this way. I was wondering what effect this conversation would have on some. As I said before I do not believe smoking is a sin. I worry for the people I care about who do smoke. If and when you feel called by God to quit, know that I am here to pray and coach you through it in anyway I can. In the meantime continue the great work God has given you to do. It occurs to me now that you could sit with a chain smoker and witness, something I could never do due to how I react around smoke. Shereen, Your pain also is jumping off the screen and I wish I could give you a BIG HUG also and say that one day all of the pain you have suffered from drug an d alcohol abuse will be wiped away. In the mean time continue to speak out. I ask both of you for forgiveness if I have hurt you as both of you have become dear to me. I have learned and will continue to learn from both of you. Valerie. | ||
| George |
Dinise, What ever you do don't give up. Things do get better, I know they do because after a life time of guilt, depression, anger and confusion I am now happy. I have been happy for going on eight months. That is about eight months longer than I have ever been before. If in your heart believe that Christ died to pay the price for your sins then you are saved. No one can ever take away from you. Not me with my crazy questions or someone telling you that you are going to hell if you don't change your ways. It is not wheather you smoke or don't smoke, drink or don't drink, have your dress to short or to long, have pants on or have a dress on, put on jewelery or take it off etc. all these things don't matter. The only thing that matters is if you believe, just that one little thing. (I will admit that it can take some time for you to believe that to believe is the only thing you have to do, but when you finally do, you wont believe how it sets you free!!!!) From a guy in his first year of happiness--George | ||
| Maryann |
Hey Denise, Call me on my cell number! Anytime of the day or night! You are more then welcome to stay over at my house for a day or two. I have been worried about how far you have stretched your self. I can promise you it will be quiet!!!!!!;-)))) :):):)Maryann | ||
| Max |
Denise, Romans (NIV) 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. | ||
| George |
Now to the rest of you, About two months ago I posted some thoughts on understanding what was written. Unfortunatly I was not able to read your answers, if you did. Some of you I know and some of you I don't and it is not my intention to offend anyone, but now I am upset, really upset. I read some verses here where Paul seems to back up an idea I had a long time ago. And that is, that somethings can be a sin for one person and not another. Do any of you even remember that? It is unfortunate that I used the example of drinking and drugs, because that is about as far as most of you got. Did you notice that I changed the example to hard cheese this morning? Did you notice that as a kid I felt that I had sinned just becuse I had eaten some? Have any of you noticed that Paul said if what you do affends some one so much that they give up, you are sinning too? And then some of you said go ahead and put on your pants and jewelery and go see Mom and Dad even if it offends then. Do you realize that some people can get so offended and angry they could have a heartatack and die and perhaps loose their eternal life because they died while angry? What ever happened to considering someones feelings? No I don't think you noticed, your notice of these things stoped when I said that for me drinking was not a sin. What is going on here? Is getting on your soap box more important than getting to the core question? It looks like it to me. The question in its simplest form is: DID I SIN WHEN I ATE THE CHEESE? This has been very pointed but not mean--George | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Maryann, Max, Valerie, George and Shereen, Today was a day that perhaps I should not have posted. But I want to thank you for your encouragement and the Scripture, oh and the e-hug (Valerie). I'm also going to ask anyone out there that read my post of earlier today to forgive me. I'm one that would rather uphold others than to be a downer and I'm sorry if I posted something that may have brought you sadness. This is for all you lurkers out there too. I'm, as Valerie is so correct on, worn out and perhaps heeding her advice to take a little better care of myself, wouldn't do me any harm. I will insist on it from this day. Valerie, there is no need for you to apologize as you nor anyone else has said anything to offend me nor attribute to what is going on with me. At least not in the negative. If anything, everyone here has been an encouragement throughout this journey out of legalism of all forms. Maryann, thank you for your cheery post. I needed that. Max, the verses you posted are the very verses of a sermon I listened to last year while attending the Nazerene Church. Our pastor of that Church was pastor Mike and what a sermon it was! He was one of those pastors that has passion like nobody you've seen. I remember so well how he delivered these same verses with tears in his eyes and a smile. I'll never forget it as it was the sermon to get me to thinking about the love of God. It was that very sermon that has always stuck in my brain and my heart and something happened that was good within me, that day. Thank you. And if pastor Mike is online, he knows who I am, Thank you too pastor Mike! :) George, you know my struggle then if you have a year or less. Infact, pastor Mike knew where I came from and his wife and him would continually work with me on this legalistic stuff. They gave me the NIV Bible and to this day, there is a post-it note stuck on the inside of the cover that Mike had written where to find the new covenant. They are sorely missed and were very inspirational in my life. It was pastor Mike that suggested I read 'Kingdom of the Cults', when I called him late one night. I was attending the sda Church at the time but knew only one person to whom I could go while I was in the spiritual darkness I was in. He was the inspiration behind me. Shereen, I know your pain. Only I know it from the other side. I was the drug addict and alcoholic. My family went through hell watching me so then after years, the Lord saw to it that I'm drug and alcohol free today. Now I watch others with great concern and sadness. I will pray for yours and I will pray for the Lord to uphold you too Shereen. May God give you His peace. Now, today was a awful bleak day for me. Many thoughts came to mind in this darkness. But, I called out to God the Almighty nonetheless. I stayed in my apartment, as is my custom, but many came to the door and would comment on my terrible appearance (sickly looking) and my emotions. There were many today that were concerned for me. Yesterday I had cancelled the Bible study that is held with the elderly people. Well, the study wasn't cancelled but I wouldn't go due to this darkness that kept creeping into my mind. I felt as though I did about one year ago and it took but a feather to finally knock me down today. I was not prepared for anything due to the many stressfull events, people and things that needed to be done. This is a lesson for me to learn. As I will watch that I don't go on overload again. But..tonight I am asked by a friend to call some relatives of my deceased friend to inform them of his demise. I don't know them, but neither did the friend who asked me. I called. I introduced myself and informed him of the news. Then we began our chat. This is where God Almighty showed His Love once again. It turns out that the man that I was speaking with works at SDA Headquarters. To top that off, I asked some questions after sharing with him that I had left the SDA Church. He was honest when he answered and very polite. I found myself telling him of my troubles, how this darkness is seeming to surround me and that my smoking seems to be a great thorn in alot of peoples side, even though I smoke only in my apartment or outside. We talked of being Saved by Grace Through Faith Alone. He agreed that I'm saved and that smoking and the like is bad for the health but not a sin. This man and I talked for around 45 minutes. I have his phone number and email address and am invited to contact him anytime. I cannot believe that the Lord is so Good! But then again, I CAN! Is this something or what? The very Church that I left is the the very Church that inspired me tonight and brought me back to life. God is so Awesome that sometimes He has me sitting here just shaking my head. My sda friend is here, Arleta. She is awestruck at this happening tonight too and we both are here Praising our Lord and Savior. God is good and I've learned yet another lesson,,,NEVER NEVER stop trusting our Lord for He is ALWAYS with us, just has He has promised us! Hallelujah, Amen. God is so Almighty, let us never forget. God Bless everyone, Denise | ||
| Valm |
Denise, I am happy that you sound better. Take Mary Ann up on her offer. She sounds like a delightful hostess and would take good care of you. And this time of year I bet her house is pretty quiet as she is outside busy with her trees. By the way MaryAnn we found the fattest and to the ceiling spruce we all love in our household. George, I have to chuckle on your comment. The last time I visited my Father he was as close as one could come to death suffering a major heart attack and going in for an emergency quadruple bypass. Certainly not the time to leave the earrings on!!!!! I will answer your hard cheese question. NO you did not sin. You were a young child who had the bejeebies frightened out of him from your background. You could not has possibly kept up with all the dos and don'ts. And neither can any of us. I think I will stick to living on grace and honoring God the best I can as an expression of my appreciation. On that note, I will tuck my kids in bed an go to sleep. Sweet and restful dreams all. Valerie. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Denise, You bet, the offer still stands, anytime:-}} How about taking Vals suggestion too?'-) Valerie, The answer was okay about the cheesie George question as far as you understood it. FORGET him being a kid for now. Would an adult or George as a kid old enough to know right from wrong be sinning by eating cheese that he believed was a sin to eat? Is it a sin for our mom to work on the sabbath when she believes it is a sin? Even though we know it is NOT a sin? Is it a sin to go against our conscience even if it is skewed? That is the question. Hope to get some direct discussion to this. As to the trees. I sure do love the nobles and all the other kinds of firs. I guess the colder country and higher elevation trees are my favorites. These are called Monterey Pines. They are fast growing, soft and fluffy compared to the fir. What is particularly funny about these Christmas trees is the trees that surround the pines are orange and grapefruit etc. groves along with pomagranites, avacados and persimmons!!! Just doesn't fit does it? In fact, when there are no customers, I get to bag up $1.00 bags of the above fruit from field boxes! Yummmmmmm'-) :):):):)......Maryann | ||
| George |
Thanks Valerie George | ||
| George |
Maryann, There is nothing like a white fir tree on a white Christhas. I can smell them now. George | ||
| Delstar |
I'm thankful for all of you tonight. I've been struggling with Titus 3:9 for a long time "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." If it is unprofitable and vain to strive about the legalism of the law.... what is the Gospel all about? It is by putting together "whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Romans 14:23, Titus 3:9 and your conversation here....that I am finally able to get a clear picture it all. If one believes that he is sinning by not holding to the 10 C law....he is. It's as plain and simple as that. To his own Master he will stand or fall. So when we argue about the law....it is virtually walking on his faith. (Now I don't know what I'm going to do with that knowledge, considering that I'm the top poster on VOAF... all about the law...LOL) But I DO KNOW that I may be destroying some by coming on too strong and yet....I also know that there is a great need for the Gospel message. Too much emphasis on law and too little upon Grace. As to parents and earrings, etc. Paul said that when he was among Jews, he became as a Jew. He honored their belief system. How much more so should we honor our parents? It isn't so much that we can destroy them physically but that we show our respect for their belief systems by avoiding what will make them hurt when we are with them. To do otherwise is merely showing them that you are old enough to do as you please, regardless of how it makes them feel. So take off the earrings, put on the dress. Make them feel good. It's not hypocritical....it's loving them. Thanks again for all the great input into my thought system. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Delstar, I don't see you too often but it's always good to see you. Glad that through all of this discussion that you came out with a clearer understanding for yourself. Hang in there for God is Good! :) God Bless you, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Valerie, I'm going to do the time out thing. Thank you. I will reply to your email tomorrow for I have much to tell you. God Bless you. Maryann, I will call you tomorrow and perhaps staying at your place for a day or two wouldn't hurt a bit. Tom could let me use his scooter! Yeah..I could eat persimmons, avocados and oranges, play the accordian, sit next to the fireplace and veg-out. Then at night, go outside and listen to the silence and look at all the stars or overlook the city. Yep, this sounds like a good course to take. :) Until Manana, God Bless, Denise | ||
| Shereen |
Well, I am sorry I caused so many problems. I will not, however, change my view on drugs and alcohol. It is not a legal issue with me as much as it is a moral issue. I will say no more and I will not post here anymore. I don't want to hurt anyone. Good bye and it was nice. | ||
| Valm |
Dear Shereen, YOU DID NOT CAUSE PROBLEMS. Your posting was a catharsis for some very good discussion. PLEASE continue to post. It certainly got me to thinking about the importance of still taking stands on issues of social importance. It is bringing Denise to a well needed rest. And George is still continuing on to find the answer to his question. Valerie. MaryAnn, I have an idea to increase business. I buy two trees now. One for the living room with all the ornaments. The other one is to display my Christmas cards. When I get a card I punch a hole in it and add it to the tree with a satin ribbon. So my tree in the family room has just twinkle lights and all of the cards I receive that year. Keep your cards and put one up for display next year and let me know if you sell more trees! Denise, I can taste the fruit and hear you play the accordian. Go for it girl!!!! Valerie | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Shereen, DON'T leave!;-) As mentioned above in several places, this whole discussion is GREAT!;-) I'll say again, we all come from different places and our needs are different! You have touched on some of the needs of some of the readers. They needed to hear your experience!!!!! And they continue to need to hear from you!!!!! One would think that living in HARMONY means that we all have the SAME views, ideas, takes on things and so on. I DON'T believe that! When 4 people sing in HARMONY, each person is singing DIFFERENT notes than the other. It becomes a quartet. It is beautiful to listen to!!:-)) You are a beautiful and important part of the QUARTET! Soooooooooooooooo, keep singing, don't change your part and feel confindent in your part. And.....if you, I or any of the others get off key once in a while, soooooooooo what!! Show me a quartet that has never gotten off key;-]]]]]]] :):):):)........Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
As to the jewelry and dress thing. I believe that we EACH have the FREEDOM in Christ to follow our consciences in this matter. For myself, when going to my diehard SDA friend's place on the Sabbath and attend their Church service, I will wear a dress out of respect to them as my friends. It makes no difference to God what I wear or don't wear. It, however makes a difference in my witness to these people. I'm not much on jewelry and make-up stuff!;-) I figure if I need to wear make-up to look better, I'll simply put a bag over my head with a couple holes in it and save myself the trouble of applying the stuff and the fright I'd give people from my wearing it! Hee hee hee hee;-)) I never did put holes in my ears! I'm terrified of the puncher thingy;-((((( I'll put the clip-on kind once in a while if I can find where I last put them. Usually, the kids or I have clipped them on the cat or dog and they loose them;-))) Soooo, with the jewelry thing.......I may or may not wear it around an SDA friend. If I did, it would be a smaller and less (offensive to them) little thing. I DO NOT think it hypocritical to NOT wear the jewelry or jeans. I think it is a matter of respect and we are given that FREEDOM in Christ:-) I have to run, hope I don't see something else that FORCES me to post more;-(((( Maryann |
