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Valm
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 9:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for everyones advise on this matter. I am inclined to agree to leave the earrings at home and dress to accoodate them. There are too many other things to get ruffled about that to set them off with my appearance would not be a good thing. For me to fully know that my dress would upset them and to do it would be an act of disrepect in my mind. They are fully aware that I exercise my freedom in Christ because they can see the holes. And maybe to know that I refrain from wearing them they wil see I regard them with respect and love. However, I still wonder if I had the guts could I wear them and articulate my respect and love in another way? That is one I will just have to figure out on my own. Valerie
Max
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 9:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

God bless you, Valerie, good heart.
Max
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shereen,

We'll be poorer far without you. Hope you
reconsider or at least drop in frequently.

Your brother in Christ,

Max of the Cross
Sally
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To comment on the "is it a sin to eat cheese if you think it is." From my reading of Romans14 it would appear that, yes it is. If someone believes that what there doing is wrong and against God's will then it will have a negative impact on him and on his relationship with God. Nevertheless I believe God looks on them with Love and pity as he sees the bondage they are in. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. So, the effect of sinning against a skewed conscience is experiencing the effects of sin on our part, yet I don't believe God condemns those caught in the snare of bondage.
Denisegilmore
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 12:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shereen,
Please don't leave. We really need your voice here too. I know that many times you have posted things that really helped me and I'd hate to think that you won't be here anymore. Truly, you are needed, as Maryann said, you are part of this choir and your voice is valuable.
I personally was glad that you had more guts than I, to post the truth about some things that we all needed to hear. This forum is about balance as someone else has mentioned and without your input, just how can we get proper balance? You didn't start or say anything bad. If anything, we all needed a good swift kick to bring us to see the light of the truth about what certain things can do to people.
Stay around and speak up always. No point in being shy around here, we are only human beings. We all have our flaws, sins, character defects, hang-ups, pet peeves, buttons, and so on. Your mind is good and your heart is good and it is needed here. You have common sense and that is priceless. Please stay.
God Bless you and your family,
Denise
Denisegilmore
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Sally,
Welcome as I don't know you,,er I don't think I do. Anyhow, I wanted to say that I enjoyed your post and yes, if we think it a sin, then for us, it is a sin. Your post really made me feel good when you said that you believe God looks at us with Love and Pity. I believe that too. Hope to hear more from you as you are beneficial for me and others.
God Bless you Sally,
Denise
George
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shereen,

I wish I had been able to write something to you this morning, but time just would not let me.

I join the others in asking you to keep posting. I find that I must say that my soap box is as big and tall if not more so than anyone elses. So stick around, O.K.

Delstar,

As grown children I think we all have to show our parents that we are independent at one time or other. But I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, " To do otherwise is merely showing them that you are old enough to do as you please, regardless of how it makes them feel.'

Valerie, Sally and all the others that responded to my question, Thanks for the reinforcement.

With all the talk about what is a sin and what isn't, I have to think back to this spring when some of us decided there is only one sin--the sin of unbelief. It seems that that idea has gone out the window, but is it hasn't how does relate to Rom. 14?

George
Max
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise,

Something has been on my heart ever since
you posted this:

^^By Denisegilmore on Monday, December 4,
2000 - 12:33 pm: If smoking is wrong, then I
should refrain from fellowship until I get it
right. God Bless, Denise.^^

And in response I posted (in part):

^^Romans 8:1 "Therefore, there is now no
condemnation for those who are in Christ
Jesus." You are saved despite your smoking,
even though smoking is harmful to God's
temple: you. Do not stay away from fellowship
with other believers because of your
smoking.^^

The problem is that even though you have
been declared absolutely perfect and holy by
virtue of Christ's sacrifice and by no merit of
your own, you are still under Holy Spirit
obligation:

NIV Romans 8:12-17:

^^Therefore, bothers [and sisters], we have an
OBLIGATION -- but it is not to the sinful nature,
to live according to it. For if you live according
to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the
Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the
body, you will live, because those who are led
by the Spirit of God are sons [and daughters]
of God. For you did not receive a spirit that
makes you a slave again to fear, but you
received the Spirit of sonship [and
daughtership]. And by him [the Spirit] we cry,
"Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with
our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we
are chldren, then we are heirs -- heirs of God
and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in
his sufferings in order that we may also share
in his glory.^^

Therefore you ARE under obligation to kick
your smoking habit, since it destroys God's
temple -- your body and mind.

The difference between being under grace
(salvation) and being under law (legalism) is
that you are already perfect and holy and a
citizen of the kingdom of heaven WHILE you
are striving against your smoking addiction.

So, again I will answer your statement -- "If
smoking is wrong, then I should refrain from
fellowship until I get it right" -- like this:

No, you MUST NOT stop your fellowship
with others who, like you, are also wearing
Christ's wedding garment of sinless
perfection.

But you MUST kick the smoking habit that
harms God's temple.

This is not what I say. This is what Scripture
says: You are under obligation to put to death
the misdeeds of the body.

With you under real, free grace alone,

Max of the Cross
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 11:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good Morning Max,
I have come to the same conclusion. Realizing that we are heirs and that our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit, I've come to a decision to try to kick this habit in the bud. However, I want it known that I'm not quitting to obtain salvation but because of salvation.
This is where I had the problem. When I was told that I would go to hell because of my smoking, it put a great amount of stress on me to quit. Because of that stress, needless to say, my smoking became worse. Quiting smoking without the due stress makes things a whole lot easier to do. You wouldn't believe how many people were nagging me and asking if I had had a cigarette today or asking, how many cigarettes did you smoke today? This kind of stress makes it almost for impossible due to all the stress. Let's face it, some of us smokers, smoke because of stress. The very last thing we need is stress.
This is my take on this. What do you think?
God Bless you,
Denise
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One other thing, I told everyone that I know in the last few weeks that I plan to quit but I don't want to hear a word about it from them. I'll quit with the help of God Himself and need no human being to help me in this matter. I also let them know that the more they nag, the harder it is to quit. I'm a straight up woman and say it like it is and some didn't care for it but still I had to say what I felt.
My plan is to quit smoking but not according to how everyone thinks I should go about this. I know my smoking habit and my body. What is best for me is directed by the Lord and He will guide me through this one as He did with the drinking and drugs.
God Bless,
Denise
P.S. Just to let you all know so at FAF, when I retreat outside to have a cig, there will be no comments..:)) Is that a roger copy?
Max
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Denise, it is a roger copy. God bless you.

You're ALREADY in heaven, you know, for:

^^Once, having been asked by the Pharises
when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus
replied, "The kingdom of God does not come
with your careful observation, nor will people
say, 'Here it is,' or, 'There it is,' because the
kingdom of God is within you."^^ --NIV Luke
17:20-21.

Max of the Cross
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And another thing, also, when those who were telling me to quit or go to hell, I realized that I was trying to quit to get saved. Then came this thought, so, am I working for my salvation? If so, then why did Jesus die? With this thought, I refused to try and work, not only on cigs but every other thing that the Churches demand. It became living hell, this trying to EARN my salvation. Finally, in utter despair, I settled to the fact that to hell I would go because there was no way that I could keep up with all the do's and don'ts. I nearly threw everything, especially eternal life away, and went back to ignoring anything about this God. I mean, if I had to WORK and WORK and keep trying to save myself, I didn't understand what Jesus Christ our Lord had to die for. This, as you can imagine, had me spinning in thought.
As of late, I realize that I am saved. As a matter of fact, I was saved about 2000 years ago. With this thought in mind, although not as firmly as it should have been considering my post earlier this week, I felt free to want to quit and not HAVE to.
I believe with everything in me, that our God, Who died at Calvary 2000 years ago for our sins, will not keep me out of the Kingdom over a cigarette. I can't believe that because if I do, then I would be believing in a small God. Personally I have a BIG God and would not be so trivial. But this is my opinion. I believe He sees me struggling with this and know HE hears my heart and I know that He knows that I love Him and hate this thorn of addiction.
God is BIG. God is BIGGER than pepsi drinking, coffee drinking, wine drinking, cigarette smoking, style of dress, jewelry wearing or not, He is BIGGER than if I dance or don't, if I clap my hands or don't, He is BIGGER than if I eat meat, whether it is chicken or pork, He Made the Earth and He made me. He made this mind of mine and renewed in me a right Spirit and a clean Heart. This God of Ours is BIGGER than all man made statues or demands, He is BIGGER than the outward appearance.
When I stuck to my native american indian traditions, I had a BIG God. When I started to enter the brick buildings of men and listened to their demands, restrictions, do and do, and don't and don'ts, I found their God to be a really small God. This in itself was in insult to the God I believed in. I submitted for awhile, under protest though, but eventually came to the conclusion that these 'white men' with their great white way (no offense anybody but this is my heart speaking), had a very insy bitsy little tiny God. It sickened me. I actually puked more than once over this little God of the Church.
I stopped attending Church. I now can worship God and thank this Big God for everything. It feels as though I was brought full circle, so to speak. And although I have been accustomed to the 'spirit' world, I realize and learned BY the Churches that this was not a right course. So something came out of Church going that is a good thing. For this, I Praise our BIG God. For He is most Powerful! I'm still learning but to submit myself a slave to others opinions is not in right order or standing with God. God sent His only Son for me. His only Son died for me. This is something I will never let loose of nor will I let any power on earth force me to let loose of this knowledge that is unadulterated Truth.
We do NOT have a small God. I cannot nor will I submit to a small God.
May this BIG God Bless all,
Denise
Max
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise,

NIV Romans 7:14 We know that the law is
spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave
to sin.
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I
want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree
that the law is good.
17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but
it is sin living in me.
18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that
is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to
do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19 For what I do is not the good I want to do;
no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on
doing.
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no
longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that
does it.

If you will read this and any other passage in
Paul you will see that as a saved person he
NEVER admits to deliberate sinning. He does
admit to doing what he doesn't want to do,
what he hates. But, he says, "It is no longer I
who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

Elsewhere he admits to being "the chief of
sinners."

So we're all alike, Denise, all in the same
boat. There is no one in the kingdom of God
who is better off than you are.

And God is not the white man's God. In fact,
while you were sticking with your Native
American Indian traditions you WERE
unknowingly worshipping the Big God you
have always loved so much. For proof of this
read Acts 17:22-31.

In this passage are imbedded the words, "The
God who made the world and everything in it
is the Lord of heaven and earth and DOES
NOT live in temples built by hands."

God love you all the time,

Max of the Cross
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 1:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, Max, I had no doubt whatsoever of what God I worshipped in my American Indian Tradition. I knew He was the Creator. Infact, I commonly referred to Him as our Creator. So that part was not the part that needed correcting.
The part of my tradition that I now have let go, with much struggle I might add, was the calling up of different spirits. There are many different spirits but the Bible and the Church has taught me that these 'spirits' were not necessarily from God. So this part of my custom has been abolished by the Truth.
But never ever did I worship a different God than the same God I worship today. Our Great Creator.
The spirit world is immense. There were many different spirits in my life. I can say a whole lot more but will not as I would rather do this subject in person, if you are interested in knowing more.
Today I know there is the Holy Spirit. One Great Spirit. Not many.
This I learned from my Bible and the Church. To this I am grateful to learn such a great Truth.
May our Creator God Bless you richly,
Denise
Valm
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Denise, GO FOR IT GIRL!!!! I will be praying and won't make mention of it again. God will work this miracle in your life just as he has in many other ways. Write if you need a dose of encouragement. Valerie
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie,
You made me laugh and ya know, laughter is good medicine. Thank you. I guess it was the 'Go for it girl' that had me laughing as that phrase, from my old city life, was used alot. I still smile when I hear it but I suppose it was seeing it so bold and as the first words to me, that had me laughing. Thank you very much as I needed a good cheer.
You will be receiving email, as I'm sure that I can use all the encouragement in this endeavor as possible. I trust God will help me have the strength as I really do want to quit (miracles never cease, do they). Whereas before, I didn't want to quit. Believe it or not, I enjoy smoking but it's really getting to my lungs! Having seen so many, beginning with my own father, die from smoking, I feel it's time I work on this habit that is taking its toll on me. Another thing I think about and that is many people could then come in and listen to me play my organ :))). Not that I'm excited or anything (yeah right). I feel too, that my cat and my bird need better air and although I keep the door open wide, it wouldn't hurt to just have a smoke free environment. Just thinking out loud as usuall.
Mostly though, it is my lungs and heart. Since this ticker of mine is having a few probs, I think this could be a wise move to quit. I want to be able to help others and me being sick or dead sure won't help them! I'm not one to do things overnight so I will not expect that of me now either. It will take time but my goal, somewhere down the road, is to be a non-smoker. I won't know what to do with my hands, or when I first wake up or after meals etc. This will be venturing on new soil. Well, new is good.
God Bless you for the encouragment,
Denise
George
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise,

I know you don't want much said about your quiting and I agree. For me it was harder when people kept reminding me about it. There is one thing I would like to say and then I will keep my mouth shut. (Be quiet Maryann)

While you are quitting if you do have a smoke don't beat yourself up over it, just finish it and go about the business of quiting. You don't need the guilt.

Good luck---George
Max
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, George,

For treating Denise in such Christian love. I
see that you have had experience in quitting
smoking. For me, your action here is absolute
proof that Jesus Christ has risen from the
dead and is active -- as the Holy Spirit -- in our
lives today. For Jesus said, "Agapay one
another as I have agapayed you."

God bless you always,

Max of the Cross
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 4:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you George. I think that is a very good suggestion. Because focusing on the problem is NOT any way to live in the solution.
God Bless you,
Denise
Chyna
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 5:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i tend to think of drugs and alcohol as sometimes gateways to let us do sinful things that we desire to do, but just need a vehicle for us to be carried in.

ex. college. people get drunk and then "hook up" (anything from kissing to oral sex, or even sex). most of the time the things you say and do under the influence are things you already think or already would like to do, but self-control prevents you from doing or saying them because of the repercussions all around. i do think being drunk makes it easier to sin. actually the bible does speak out about being drunk, and drunkards.

i personally, imbibe alcohol to a minor extent, but that's under my Christian liberty, but I have been very careful not to get drunk because it is not a good witness

rom 13:13 let us live honorably as in the day, not in reveling and drunkenness, not in debauchery and licentiousness, not in quarreling and jealousy.

Galatians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things

dear george, you claim there is nothing wrong with trying drugs, and yet part of the fruit of the Spirit is self control. when it is written about what a deacon should be like, they mention "sober." many times, drugs help us to lose "self control" and our sense of reality. i think that's also out of a feeling of being scared of not being in total control of your life so you go the complete opposite way and want to give up what little control you do have over your life for that moment in time.

personally I've always thought even smoking marijuana is escapism. it's part of trying to find a false peace, or happiness, or excitment about life artificially. when that sort of real peace, joy, etc. only comes from God. so these people are accepting substitutes.

lastly, your body is a temple of God. I am not going to go extremist and say that therefore the adventist "health msg" is doctrinal, but I will say that the way you treat your body (whether you abuse it, or treat it well so you can carry out God's ministry better) is a witness.

1 Thes 5:6-8
6 So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Stay alert and be sober. 7 Night is the time for sleep and the time when people get drunk. 8 But let us who live in the light think clearly, protected by the body armor of faith and love, and wearing as our helmet the confidence of our salvation

I think the phrase "think clearly" is a key phrase here in addressing alcohol and other drugs. when we think clearly we are probably (this is just my opinion) more in tune with the H.S. the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. Whenever we muddle our thinking whether in drunkeness or getting high, we are probably opening up ourselves for an opportunity of the devil or his minions. (shudder)

hope this helps,
love, Chyna

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