| Author | Message | ||
| Lorinc |
To Any and All, Two articles I read yesterday on abcnews.com just chilled me to the bone, gave me nightmares last night, and have brought to mind a question I've had for some time: One article dealt with the execution in Texas of that unspeakably vile "man" who had kidnapped and brutalized a little seven-year-old girl; the article went into some detail about what he had done. The other talked about two "men" in one of the Asian countries who had kidnapped, tortured, and dismembered a young woman. I will spare you all the details, but they were revolting. The Question: Many of you on this forum, having left Adventism and its Arminian roots, have become Calvinists to varying extents: very big advocates of God's Sovereignty, His irresistable will, the fact that nothing can thwart His purposes, that, as Dr. Charles Stanley puts it, "Nothing gets to you without going through Jesus first." As I understand it, this worldview posits that God is in active control of the events that transpire here, and that therefore the trials that I confront have His tacit stamp of approval. This is supposed to be comforting. SO: That being the case, I must reach the conclusion that it was God's sovereign will that that innocent little girl be, not just killed, but abused, violated, then killed in such a horrible way. That, in fact, since God is in direct control of ALL human events, He not only opted not to stop it, but He actually CAUSED the events that led to these crimes. Honest question: How do you draw comfort and security from belief in such a God? Calvinism (based on my limited understanding) just seems cold, predetermined, and pointless. It seems to present a capricious, arbitrary God who has an active hand in the rape and murder of seven-year-old girls. If that was the case, I'd choose destruction (or even hell) instead of eternity with him. I find it much more comforting to view this planet as a battle-zone; enemy territory, if you like. "God is not willing that any should perish," but for His own reasons, Earth has been given over to Satan's control for a period of time. God *does* miraculously reach in and intervene on specific instances when it is essential to His plan (e.g., the Incarnation, the miracles worked by the Apostles, etc). But for the most part, for whatever reason, it is necessary for Him to give Satan free reign. Thus, it is *not* God's will that those girls were hurt, it is *not* His will that civil wars are blazing around the globe, and, if I get hit by a truck on my way home tonight, God will NOT be driving it! In a world controlled by Satan, evil just happens. We have God's assurance that someday He will put an end to evil and will restore all things to His original intent -- but in the meantime, the things that happen are NOT His perfect will. Thoughts? Helpful suggestions? Have I misrepresented the "sovereignty" argument? As usual, no offense intended -- just looking for enlightenment, another perspective, etc. Grace to all, Lorin | ||
| Shereen |
Lorin, I am with you 100% in your way of thinking. I don't understand it at all. I don't agree that Gods stamp of approval is on horrible things like that. Max wrote this to me in an earlier post: Shereen, a sovereign God is in utter control. No demon can fly out of the Abyss unless an angel comes down from heaven with a key and a specific God-assigned mission for it to perform. (Read Revelation without White-tinted glasses.) I will, of course, read it when I get home but if that is the kind of God we serve, then I would just say the #$%% with it and party down here and die. Why would anyone want to live for eternity with a God like that? I believe our God is a loving God. I believe, from my experience as a mother, that God is more loving then I could ever imagine. I would never let my kids step into pain and suffering like happened to those poor girls. It would kill me inside. I think it breaks Gods heart when this happens and he weeps. I cannot see Him letting a demon loose to do that. I just don't understand why it can't all stop now. I don't understand :-( | ||
| Lorinc |
Agreed, Shereen, I don't understand it all either, but I can't accept that the God who stretched out His arms and let Himself be nailed to a cross for you and me, will turn around and send demons to torture an innocent little girl. - Lorin | ||
| Cas |
I was going to quote from the new book by Lee Strobel called The Case For Faith, but I do not have the time now. It addresses some of the issues being discussed on the subject of suffering. I have wrestled with the same questions of why the suffering, and still do, but this book really helps and I recommed all read it. | ||
| Darrell |
I hear you Lorin and Shereen. I cannot fathom how a loving God could be considered the source of evil. Love by its very definition requires giving freedom to not love in return, freedom to rebel. This, I believe, can explain why evil could exist in the universe. Would any of you "neo-calvinists" out there care to explain how you resolve these questions? | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Firstly Darrell, what is a neo-calvinist and am I one? Here is my thought on God and the atrocities in the world. God is Sovereign. God is Love. But, as you so aptly put it, He also gives us a choice in our behaviors. Though it is sad that things like this happen, it is nontheless true that the prince of the power of the air is satan. God loves all people but that doesn't mean that He should intervene in every crime, every rape, every beating, every robbery, everytime someone's car is stolen etc. For now, God is watching and God is showing His love but not necessarily in ways in which we mere human beings can understand. He is not a vending machine. He is Sovereign. He is our Maker. And He is in Control no matter what. This is where faith comes in. To have faith to know, without seeing, that God is watching. And God tells us that 'vengence is His'. God will cast judgement on those that deem these dasterdly deeds okay. God will give us a home of eternal peace. This is why we must tell people of our God. This is our hope. True, in the meanwhile, we are witnessing some awful stuff in this ole world, but keep in mind that while God's eye is on the sparrow, His eye is more importantly on us. He does care and there are many times when He does intercede, infact many MANY times. Whatever happens in this world, God knows about it, God judges it, God will repay. Do people expect God to act out in ways WE expect. But, HIS thoughts are HIGHER THAN OUR THOUGHTS, HIS WAYS ARE HIGHER THAN OUR WAYS. Who can doubt God Almighty???! There has been lawless deeds throughout the ages, but along with these lawless deeds, who fed us today, who clothed us today, who gave us the shelter we have today? Who is it that allowed the sun to shine? Who speaks and the mountains tremble? God Almighty, that's who. We don't know why these awful things happen but GOD does. How do we know that something good didn't come out of everything bad?? We don't know these things. How can we ever dare to doubt God? Does anyone stop to think that when people die, they just may have it better than we do?? They may be with God Himself! While we are here with debts and bets and aircraft carriers and jets. Let's allow ourselves the comfort of knowing that God is the ALLSEEING EYE. He gives comfort to those He knows needs it and just because it is not to OUR standards, does not mean that it is not good. Don't Doubt God, all you people. GOD DOES CARE and He has made plans for us that are beyond our scope of imagining. What Plans this God must have! Through the thick and the thin, Let us always Praise our Maker, the very one the CREATED each and every one of us reading and posting on this board. God created the entire planet, the stars, the moon, the flowers, the mountains, birds, dogs, your children, your mother, your aunt, your eyes, your ears, your fingers, your rivers, lakes, streams, and the hawk. God Made all this for us! God is Good. God is Sovereign, God is WATCHING. May God Almighty Blessed each one of with the HOPE of Eternal Life, without the chaos. Bless HIM and Praise Him, for He Loves us. | ||
| Max |
Would anybody care to explain the following passage? 5 I am the LORD, and there is NONE else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is NONE else [no Satan with divine powers]. 7 I form the light, and create DARKNESS: I make peace, and create EVIL: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto HIM THAT STRIVETH with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the CLAY say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? --Isaiah 45:5-9 | ||
| Max |
Or how about the following texts (NIV)? 1 Samuel 16:14İNow the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an EVIL SPIRIT FROM THE LORD tormented him. 1 Samuel 16:15İAnd Saul's servants said to him, "Behold now, an EVIL SPIRIT FROM GOD is tormenting you. 1 Samuel 16:16İLet our lord now command your servants, who are before you, to seek out a man who is skilful in playing the lyre; and when the EVIL SPIRIT FROM GOD is upon you, he will play it, and you will be well." 1 Samuel 16:23İ1 And whenever the EVIL SPIRIT FROM GOD was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand; so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him. 1 Samuel 18:10İAnd on the morrow an EVIL SPIRIT FROM GOD rushed upon Saul, and he raved within his house, while David was playing the lyre, as he did day by day. Saul had his spear in his hand; 1 Samuel 19:9İThen an EVIL SPIRIT FROM THE LORD came upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his spear in his hand; and David was playing the lyre. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Sure, I'll take a shot at it Max, He is GOD ALMIGHTY. He made vessels to use for His Glory and vessels to use to show his wrath, which brings Him Glory. God is God. Who can argue? Let's look at what God says to Job: 40:2-14 "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? Let him who accuses God answer him!" Then Job said: "I am unworthy-how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth. I spoke once, but I have no answer-twice, but I will say no more." The the Lord Spoke to Job out of the storm: "Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself? Do you have an arm like God's, and can your voice thunder like his? Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor, and clothe yourself in honor and majesty. Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at every proud man and bring him low, crush the wicked where they stand. Bury them all iln the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave. Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you." The rest of that chapter is great too. I love reading it. May God Almighty Himself bless you Max of the Cross, Denise | ||
| Max |
Hereís an exegetical exercise for anyone willing to take it on: (NIV) Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it." 8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." 9 "DOES JOB FEAR GOD FOR NOTHING?" Satan replied. 10 "HAVE YOU NOT PUT A HEDGE AROUND HIM AND HIS HOUSEHOLD AND EVERYTHING HE HAS? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out YOUR [Godís] hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." 12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, EVERYTHING HE HAS IS IN YOUR HANDS, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. You know the rest of the story. But I ask you, Why did God let Satan be his hand? | ||
| Denisegilmore |
John 14:30 Jesus speaking of satan. "I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. Come now; let us leave." Eph. 2:2 Paul's epistle "In which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the RULER of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who ae disobedient." satan is the prince of the power of the air. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
To show what faith is about? second answer, So we could really read and understand how powerful God is? third try, To show satan that there were faithful ones, even without being protected? fourth answer, to show us of other ways in which God can work? These of course, are guesses. But it is a very good question. What is your answer? I don't know all that exegetical stuff. Perhaps you would shed some light for us Max? God Bless you, Denise P.S. I love assignments once I figure out how to do them properly..:) | ||
| Max |
Why did the Lord harden Pharaoh's heart? NIV Exodus 9:12İBut the LORD HARDENED PHARAOH'S HEART and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses. NIV Exodus 10:1İThen the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I HAVE HARDENED HIS HEART AND THE HEARTS OF HIS OFFICIALS so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among NIV Exodus 10:20İBut the LORD HARDENED PHARAOH'S HEART, and he would not let the Israelites go. NIV Exodus 10:27İBut the LORD HARDENED PHARAOH'S HEART, and he was not willing to let them go. NIV Exodus 11:10İMoses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD HARDENED PHARAOH'S HEART, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country. NIV Exodus 14:8İThe LORD HARDENED THE HEART OF PHARAOH king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly. | ||
| Max |
I will say this at this point: One thing I believe very deeply is: Scripture is never a "what does it mean to you?" or "of private interpretation" revelation -- except in one's private devotions. In the kingdom of heaven -- that is under our feet as well as over our heads -- Scripture is always a "what does it mean?" revelation. | ||
| Max |
Denise, I am not the answer man. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
God hardened Pharoah's heart to show His own Glory. So that even though pharoah was not aware of God's action in his heart, this shows us that God uses His vessels exactly how He pleases in order to show His own Glory. It also shows us that God is in complete control. Yes? Denise | ||
| Max |
One very interesting proof that Jesus was fully God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit all one with one human being) is the way the evil spirits, knowing he was God, shook and shrieked and obeyed him when he ordered them around. Still astounding -- even after 20 centuries! NIV Mark 1:23 Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an evil spirit cried out, 24 "What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are--the Holy One of God!" 25 "Be quiet!" said Jesus sternly. "Come out of him!" 26 The evil spirit shook the man violently and came out of him with a shriek. 27 The people were all so amazed that they asked each other, "What is this? A new teaching--and with authority! He even gives orders to evil spirits and they obey him." | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Max, I know you are not the answer man, however, I'm a willing student over here on the other end of your monitor. And well, you have years of experience and I but less than a two years of Bible reading. You posed some very good questions. I would like to know what Scripture says. I will not again ask 'your interpretation', this I just learned today from you. Thank you. However, why did you ask whomever, 'Why did God Harden Pharoah's Heart', if you didn't want the answer? Or was that to be a personal assignment for all who read. For people like me, I personally could use a simple explanation to these seemingly perplexing questions. Without proper schooling, I can only read and take stabs at my answers. Still, I thoroughly enjoying this. God Bless you, Denise (have patience with me Max, I'm the new kid on the block..) | ||
| Max |
Here are some good, solid clues from Paul: NIV Romans 9:11 Yet, BEFORE the twins were born or had done anything good or bad -- in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls -- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I HATED." 14 What then shall we say? Is God UNJUST? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does NOT, therefore, DEPEND ON MAN'S desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display MY power in you and that MY name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the POTTER have the right to make out of the same LUMP of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? | ||
| Max |
Denise, before I forget I need to tell you something: You have an excellent and very penetrating mind. |
