| Author |
Message |
Allenette
| | Posted on Monday, December 25, 2000 - 9:18 pm: |     |
Valm: no offense but the FLat EArthSOciety is no more a joke than any other belief system. Those of us who would not want to offend anybody for their indidvidual belief system, would NEVER, EVER want to discourage anyone from their belief systems, since that is usually what "keeps them going" in this sometimes difficult world we live in. (GGGG) You better not make fun of them since they are as sincere as a heart attack in their beliefs and can back them up with faithful arguments and, at times, seemingly logical conclusions as well. If needed, they can quote BIble texts too. ;-) |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2000 - 12:04 am: | |
Val,
The Flat Earth Society is real, and the folk
there are deadly serious and have about as
much of a sense of humor as junk yard dogs. |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2000 - 12:26 am: | |
Hi George,
Communications problem again.
^^This then must be the TRUE test of faith, to
believe in God when His very existence is only
an assumption.^^
I didn't say that. Nor does Scripture.
In Scripture belief in God in Scripture is based
on divine-human encounters known as
inspiration and revelation, not on any
assumption. When the biblical writer had an
experience of this encounter he was inspired
and wrote out revelation as a reporter might
do.
When a war correspondent, for example,
writes about a battle he doesn't try to prove
that the enemy is real, he ASSUMES that the
enemy is real and writes out his report.
I'm the same way. I experience an encounter
with the divine and then I write it out as I did in
"It's Christmas and All You Can Do Is Cry."
Only my work is not on a par with Scripture.
Scripture writers are special in that the Old
Testament writers were prophesying of the
coming Messiah, and the New Testament
writers were witnessing to the Messiah event
-- eyewitnesses, earwitnesses, touch
witnesses.
But that task is finished. No one can add to or
detract from the completed record. Revelation
pronounces a curse on anyone who does so.
That's why Ellen G. White is under a curse.
Still, every believer is entitled to his own
divine-human encounter, known as prayer.
NIV John 12:44 Then Jesus cried out, "When a
man believes in me, he does not believe in
me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 When
he looks at me, he sees the one who sent
me."
Blessings, |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2000 - 12:28 am: | |
Great post, Allenette! I concur completely. |
George
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2000 - 7:40 am: | |
Max.
I don't think we have a communication problem on
this one.
Unless we can actually put our hands around the
earth and feel it is round, there can be a
lingering doubt that it is.. You can question
almost any "proof" by calling into question it's
proof.( How do we really know the earth is round
when the sun moves across the sky? In most
things of that nature you would think the earth
is still.) At some point you have to take most
of what is taught on faith.
The same with the Bible. Where is the "proof"
the writers were inspired? Where is the "proof"
there is a God when there is no "proof" the
Bible which tells us of Him is true. So you see,
Before we can we ann have faith in Christ's
death we MUST have faith in what tells us of it,
and then, in who inspired it.
How can you have faith in something the Word
says if you don't have faith in the Word it's
self?
Seems rather impossible to me.
George |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2000 - 2:07 pm: | |
Great questions and observations, George!
Your calculator is well-oiled.
Again, remember that in my answers I am not
speaking for anyone except myself or any
group as a whole, including Christianity and
FAF.
^^Unless we can actually put our hands
around the earth and feel it is round, there can
be a lingering doubt that it is.^^
Yes, and the gospel writers put their hands
around God: NIV 1 John 1:1 "That which was
fom the beginning, which we have HEARD,
which we have SEEN with our eyes, which we
have LOOKED at and our hands of TOUCHED
-- this we proclaim concedrning the Word of
life."
THEY saw, THEY heard, THEY touched. But I
didn't. I wasn't there. I have to take their word
for it.
But as a "calculator" (rational, scientifically
oriented person) I can't just take their word for
it. I have to have some experience myself,
some putting of "our hands around the
earth and feel[ing] it is round," as you have
creatively said.
Therefore, where am I going to go? Well, I'm
not going to go to Ellen G. White or Albert
Einstein or Bishop St. Anselm. I'm going to go
to my own experience with the divine. God
came to me in the silence of my own agonized
ignorance and revealed Himself to me. I had
an encounter experience with the divine. And
this experience gave me reason to trust John
and the other gospel writers about the
spiritual reality of the Son God.
You asked, ^^How can you have faith in
something the Word says if you don't have
faith in the Word itself?"
I can have faith in something the Word says
because I have faith in the Word itself. And I
have faith in the Word itself because I have
had an experience with God who opened my
eyes and ears and gave sensory receptors to
the touch of my numb hands.
Max of the Cross |
George
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2000 - 8:30 pm: | |
Max,
Often when I say "you" I don't mean you in
particular I mean people in general. If you can
suggest a way to make that more clear I would
appreciate it.
Maybe I didn't say exactly what I wanted to get
said this morning, so I will try again. If I am
not sure if I believe there is a God how can I
have faith in something He is supposed to have
said?
In other words a person would have to believe
there is a God before they could believe anything
He said. Therefor believing there is a God is the
first test of faith, for me anyway, and most of
the time I am tested to the limit.
All this time I have been saying I believe in a
free salvation, I should have been saying, assuming
there is a God then I believe what He says
and salvation is free.
George |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2000 - 9:25 pm: | |
Hi George,
Iíll try to do a better job of interpreting ìyouî
from context. You are using English correctly. It
is I who must be more careful interpreting
what you write. Some writers use ìoneî
instead of ìyouî to indicate people in general,
but that can sound old-fashioned and stilted.
For me your writing is fine just as it is.
^^If I am not sure if I believe there is a God
how can I have faith in something He is
supposed to have said?^^
If a mysterious, intelligent, commanding voice
were to come to you when you were alone out
in the desert and speaking to you out of a
bush that was burning but not burning up,
would you believe what you were experiencing
was real? Or would you think you were going
nuts?
Or if you were slam-dunked to the ground and
struck blind by an overpowering light, then
spoken to by a human voice, would you
believe what you were experiencing was real?
Or would you think you were going nuts?
^^In other words a person would have to
believe there is a God before they could
believe anything He said?^^
I donít know. Maybe itís different for different
people.
^^Believing there is a God is the first test of
faith, for me anyway, and most of the time I am
tested to the limit.^^
Would you have to have God proven by
science and logic before you could believe
there is One?
^^All this time I have been saying I believe in a
free salvation. I should have been saying,
assuming there is a God then I believe what
He says and salvation is free.^^
All right then, well said. Do you assume there
is a God?
Max of the Cross |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2000 - 10:47 pm: | |
Flat earth, round earth, square earth...I could care less what the shape of our world is. I go outside at night and look up to the stars and the moon and sit in silence, beholding the twinkling in the skies. A beautiful, silent moment with God for me. Deep calls to deep during these interludes.
God Bless all nomatter what the shape of our world is,
Denise |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2000 - 10:57 pm: | |
I know there is a God. Nobody may want to hear this, but I was dead, clinically. And I can tell you that unless you have experienced something like this, you have no idea what I'm talking about. But there is something beyond this, in all reality, one dimension life. I was there and came back because God said to me "You have to go back." He said this not once but twice. That was December 5th 1988.
Oh yes, there is a God. To this I have no doubt and nobody can tell me that I hallucinated this nor that it was from a lack of oxygen to my brain. When God speaks to you in that way, BELIEVE me that you KNOW it is God.
GOD IS.
Denise
P.S. The Bible tells us too that God has put His laws into our minds and our hearts, so I listen to the 'supposed athiests', knowing that they know better. Nobody will ever convince me that they actually believe and I mean BELIEVE that there is no God! They know better and so does God.
So now am I going to be blasted for my experience? |
Maryann
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2000 - 10:57 pm: | |
Hey George!,
I got the answer to how you can get the sure fire answer to ALL this "stuff."
Make sure you go to heaven and ask God yourself;-)
:):):)........Sis |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2000 - 12:18 am: | |
Denise,
I know what you mean, I know your experience
was real, and I know you're not crazy.
As the bard has written, "There are more
things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are
dreamt of in your philosophy."
--William Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act I, Scene 5 |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2000 - 12:22 am: | |
God Bless you Max of the Cross. I love the play 'Hamlet.' But in my case, and I'm sure in others, those words are so very TRUE!
your sister in Christ Jesus,
Denise |
Maryann
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2000 - 12:29 am: | |
Hi Max;-)) |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2000 - 12:51 am: | |
Hi Maryann,
Thanks for the Xmas presents. You're a
princess. |
Maryann
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2000 - 1:04 am: | |
You're welcome;-)
It seems that you will most likely understand the "hug the elephant" thingy that Denise and I were going on about! He he he he:,,,,-( |
George
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2000 - 2:46 am: | |
Max,
You said,
"All right then, well said. Do you
assume there is a God."
That's just it, I don't know. I do
think however, this is at the root
of all my questions.
'To believe or not to believe,
that IS the question'
To really really believe,
Hmmm...? It would be nice.
George |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2000 - 11:05 am: | |
George,
The best response I can give you right now is
this passage from Scripture:
NIV Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of
what we hope for and certain of what we do
not see.
2 This is what the ancients were commended
for.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was
formed at God's command, so that what is
seen was not made out of what was visible.
4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice
than Cain did. By faith he was commended as
a righteous man, when God spoke well of his
offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even
though he is dead.
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so
that he did not experience death; he could not
be found, because God had taken him away.
For before he was taken, he was commended
as one who pleased God.
6 And without faith it is impossible to please
God, because anyone who comes to him
must believe that he exists and that he
rewards those who earnestly seek him.
I must emphasize, though, that I don't believe
any human being or any scientific endeavor or
philosophical school has ever proved that God
exists.
And if they did, there would be no more room
for faith.
I even believe it's impossible to prove
scientifically or philosophically or logically
God's existence. But you probably are already
aware of that. |
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