| Author | Message | ||
| Lorinc |
All, The only thing that comes close to a Bible text that I've heard used to support the "without a mediator" doctrine is an interpretation *inferred* from some passages from Revelation that goes thusly: 1. We know that Jesus is now, today, in the Holy of Holies, functioning as our High priest. The book of Hebrews tells us so (For the moment, ignore the question of *when* he got there). 2. At some point, Jesus has to *leave* the sanctuary in Heaven, for His return to earth as described in Revelation 19. 3. When He has left the sanctuary, He is then no longer working in the High Priestly role, making intercession for us (after all, the High Priest had to be *in* the sanctuary to do that). 3. Thus, for the length of time that it takes Jesus to travel from Heaven to Earth, there's nobody ministering for us in Heaven. This is why we must develop perfect characters -- in order to withstand Satan's attacks, without stumbling, while Jesus is "in transit" to come get us. During that time, we "stand in the presence of a Holy God without a mediator," to use EGW's term from the Great Controversy. {The above is presented as a "good faith" effort to explain a doctrine I don't personally believe. Any Adventists reading this, please feel free to chime in and correct / expand this explanation.} Grace to All, Lorin | ||
| Valm |
That sounds out there, I will have to think about that one and write my thoughts and questions later. Valerie | ||
| Max |
HEREíS PROOF THAT FOR EGW, STANDING ìWITHOUT A MEDIATORî MEANS STANDING IN ONEíS ìOWN MERITSî Cain tried this course of self-dependence. He felt, as many inexperienced youth now feel, that it would be an acknowledgment of weakness on his part to follow the plan marked out of God. He would come IN HIS OWN MERITS. He would not bring the lamb, and mingle its blood with his offering; but he would be very generous, and would offer of his fruits, the products of his labor. He looked with scorn upon Abel, who felt that he could not approach God WITHOUT A MEDIATOR. Abel followed the precise directions given by God. The result is well known. The Lord accepted the offering of Abel, presented in humility, and faith in the coming Lamb of God. His obedience was counted to him for righteousness. Cain, angry that his offering was rejected, killed his brother. --Ellen G. White, ìAn Address to the Young,î The Signs of The Times, September 11, 1884 | ||
| Max |
AND HEREíS PROOF THAT FOR EGW, STANDING BEFORE GOD ìWITHOUT A MEDIATORî IS PART OF A "WORK" THAT COULD BE GOING ON RIGHT NOW! Says the prophet: "Who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap; and he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."[1 Mal. 3:2, 3.] Those who are living upon the earth when the INTERCESSION OF CHRIST SHALL CEASE in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God WITHOUT A MEDIATOR. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and THEIR OWN DILIGENT EFFORT, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. WHILE THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT IS GOING FORWARD in Heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14. When this WORK shall have been ACCOMPLISHED, the followers of Christ will be ready for his appearing. "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years."[2 Mal. 3:4.] Then the church which our Lord at his coming is to receive to himself will be "a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing."[3 Eph. 5:27.] Then she will look forth "as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners."[4 Song of Solomon 6:10.] --Ellen G. White, ìIn the Holy of Holies,î The Great Controversy [1888 edition], page 425. | ||
| Max |
Note that in the post above, Ellen G. White's assertion: "This work [investigative judgment] is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14. So let's read Revelation 14 in the next post and see for ourselves! | ||
| Max |
Revelation (NIV) 14: 1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless. [FIRST ANGELíS MESSAGE] 6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the ETERNAL GOSPEL [my friends, this is NOT a Sabbath-keeping message] to proclaim to those who live on the earth--to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water." [SECOND ANGELíS MESSAGE] 8 A second angel followed and said, "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries." [THIRD ANGELíS MESSAGE] 9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark [mark of the beast NOT Sunday worship] on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments [NOT a reference to the Ten Commandments, but to CHRISTíS New Testament commandments which OMIT the Fourth Commandment] and remain faithful to Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them." 14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" [quoting Daniel] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. 17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia [180 miles]. **************************** Dear Adventist Friends, As you can clearly see, there are NO distinctive SDA messages in Revelation 14. There is NO ìinvestigative judgment" anywhere to be found, whether beginning in 1844 or any other time. There is NO message stating or implying or even remotely suggesting that Methodists, for instance, are not ready and must "get ready" for Jesus to come. I love you, I've "been there and done that," and so I'm not trying to hurt you. But some day you must stop denying the truth: You have been DECEIVED and ìBEWITCHEDî! Read Galatians 3. Let that day be today: investigative judgment no, gospel yes! All you have to do is to confess with your mouth that Jesus is your Lord and Savior, and you WILL be instantly perfect and ready for Jesus to come! Let that day be today: Ellen no, Jesus yes! I know God's Holy Spirit is moving in your heart or you wouldn't be lurking here reading this. God bless you all, Max of the Cross | ||
| Valm |
I can not stay long but just checked in. My bible in hand, I read a couple of the texts EGW refers too. Fist the one in Ephesians seems to be taken totally out of context. It is in the section in which wives are advised to submit to their husbands and for husband to love their wives as "Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word and to present her to himself as a radiant church without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless." To me it seems to advise husbands to love their wives with the same type of love Christ gave all of us. In the text we are holy and blameless because of what Christ has done for us not what we have done for ourselves. Years ago I would have just read what she quoted and not bothered to check the context!!! I am catching on. In Malachi 3 it begins what appears to be a prophecy of John preparing the way for Jesus' first coming. "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the Lord almighty." although I do not quite understand the rest of the chapter, to me it does not seem to be refering to the second coming. And no there is no reference in Revelation 14 with regards to standing without a mediator. She quotes Song of Solomon but I don't see a connection here either. This man is REALLY in LOVE and is poetically telling her so. It doesn't say that she did anything special "appear like the dawn, fair as themoon, bright as the sun, majestic as the stars in procession" He is just mearly smitten. So those are my thoughts. Any comments? I'd like to know more of what anyone thinks particularly of the rest of Malachi. And can ANYONE find any text that makes the slightest reference albeitmisconstrued to Jesus our Mediator being withdraw from his people? | ||
| Billtwisse |
ALL: Good posts, Max! For the honest observer, there has never been any question about the meaning of Ellen White's 'without a mediator.' It means that the 144,000 must stand in the presence of God in the final judgment without any action, thought, or IMPULSE of personal sin. I cannot imagine that any of those who believe this really have contemplated what it means to be free of wrong IMPULSES. The slightest tendency toward any wrong thought or action disqualifies you entirely! Cindy: To answer your question about TGVG--Yes, we had real turkey AND the best fake turkey (gluten roast) possible. Plus a tempting 'gluten-free' roast for the 'wheat-free' purists. On special occassions, my wife and I always try and provide the best of everything that anyone might desire to all of the guests at our house. GA: It is so good to hear from you again! I haven't been reading all of the topics but it has been a while since I've seen anything from you. I do sign on to your website every now and then--I intend to keep in touch. On the 'pentecostal' issue: I think that we can believe in the present relevance of the 'spirituals' without having to align ourselves with those who demand that we use the pentecostal label. So much distortion has come out of that thing. The Third Angel's Message: "The smoke of their torment rises forever and ever" (Rev. 14:11). Hardly an SDA-loved scripture. --Twisse | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Bill, I looked up the Third Angel and what he says, here it is: "A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." God Bless you, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Speaking of Third Angels Message. Ellen White says there is a work to accompany it, it is thus: "Our gracious heavenly Father sees the deplorable condition of men, who, some knowingly but ignorantly, are living in violation of the laws that He has established. And in love and pity to the race, He causes the light to shine upon HEALTH REFORM. He publishes His law, and the penalty that will follow the transgression of it, that all may learn, and be careful to live in harmony with natural law. He proclaims His Law so distinctly, and makes it so prominent, THAT IT IS LIKE A CITY SET ON A HILL. All accountable beings can understand it if they will. IDIOTS WILL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE. To make plain the natural law, and urge the OBEDIENCE TO IT, IS THE WORK THAT ACCOMPANIES THE THIRD ANGEL'S MESSAGE, TO PREPARE A PEOPLE FOR THE COMING OF THE LORD." 3 Testimony to the Church. Page 161. It is also in Medical Ministry, 1932 edition, page 289 under the subtitle; Light Given in Love and Pity. God Bless all, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Okay, for you theologians out there. Isn't there some passage that talks about the 'restrainer to be taken out of the way'. Something to this effect. I had listened to a pastor last year talk of this and he used Scripture if I recall this correctly. Now he went on to explain that the 'restrainer' is currently holding back the four winds. So he went on to further this by saying that when he (the restrainer) is taken out of the way, meaning the Holy Spirit, then that's when this rapture of the Church was to take place. Of course this was not an adventist pastor. Could this be a possibility for the sda Church to use this passage and misconstrue it to mean our Mediator? Just a thought. I am no theologian but I'm going to find this passage by tomorrow evening. Because of this passage, I did hear someone in the sda Church speak of us at that time being without the Holy Spirit for the time of trouble. Does this help or did I just make matters more confusing. God Bless all, Denise | ||
| Lorinc |
Hi Denise, It's in II Thessalonians somewhere. Paul is talking about the coming of the antichrist. "Only he who now restrains will do so, until he is taken out of the way. Then shall.." [antichrist be revealed] - Lorin | ||
| Denisegilmore |
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 "And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming." What was explained to me, was that when 'he', Holy Spirit, is taken out of the way, then we are here without the Holy Spirit for the entirety of the tribulation. Therefore, we had better be perfect and in right standing as we are on our own until Jesus comes. This is how I understand this, as it was told to me. Is there any creedence to this theory? Of course this was sda version. The other version by a non-adventist is that when the 'he' or Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, then that's when the 'Rapture' will occur as the Church has within it the Holy Spirit. Hence, if the Holy Spirit is taken then that is the Church's Rapture because we have the Holy Spirit residing within us. What do you think of this theory? Thank you and God bless you Lorin, Denise | ||
| Valm |
I don't think much of the rapture theory. However, I also don't see where that text says the Holy spirit will be withdrawn from God's people. I also don't see where it says we will stand before God without an intecessor. I will have to read the whole chapter tonight. Valerie | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Valerie, The Holy Spirit will not be taken from us because Jesus promises us that He will never leave nor forsake us. So this goes right down the tubes. Also, we will not have to stand without a Mediator. Jesus is our Mediator and will never leave nor forsake us. I put those theories on board because I wanted to show people of the various teachings that come, sometimes out of the same church, and sometimes from other churches. It can get very confusing. That is why I'm so grateful for our Lord's promises. He will NEVER leave you Valerie, He will NEVER leave any of us. so these theories or vain philosophies of men are wrong. Never fear Valerie, Trust God. :) God Bless you with His Peace, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
And also Valerie, This passage above is talking about the Holy Spirit no longer holding back the four winds. Which will allow the antichrist to appear. It is not talking about the Holy Spirit being taken from us. The Holy Spirit is the one who is keeping the antichrist from appearing and reaking havoc. At least, this is what was told to me. Theologians, help! I don't know enough to be trying to explain this stuff. I need your help, otherwise, I'm only confusing others. a BIG SOS is being blinked out on this data machine,,,can ya hear it? :)) God Bless, Denise, who is also needing much clarification in these matters. | ||
| Valm |
Denise, You are doing mighty fine. Valerie PS Did you go to MaryAnn's and get your well needed rest? I can't imagine turning down an invite from such an amusing and delightful person as MaryAnn. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Valerie, I'm glad you think I'm doing 'mighty fine', however, I'm terrible at this trying to explain anything..it's frustrating as ever. But I thank you for saying kind words in spite of my own babblings. As to taking Maryann up on her offer. I plan to work that in this weekend, starting tomorrow, if tomorrow is Friday. If tomorrow is not Friday, then on Friday, whenever that is, is when I plan to go to the FAF meeting and hoping I'm up to staying the weekend. We'll see. Lately (in the past 3 days), It's like God Himself talked to everyone's heart and told them to let me have some rest for a few days. It's been really nice and much needed. I was told by the physician, that I need rest. Hmmmm, like I didn't know this. I'm resting comfortably and posting liking a lunatic, in between, lazing out, eating and trying to train my new bird. He bites! I have these little bitty, but stingful jobbers all over my fingers now. Still, he does hop onto my finger and acts innocent, until that is, he attacks me with that little beak of his. I think he enjoys being on my finger but then it's frightening to him too. I'm sure, I get carried away talking about my bird! Oh well, this is what I'm doing. Also, I'm practicing, when I have the brain capacity, on this organ. It's got some pretty fancy peddles and they baffle me. I'm used to playing piano, but this is completely different. I will call Maryann tomorrow and let her know how I feel. You are right, she and her children are great company. It's a beautiful setting as well. But, first I must see who will take care of my cat and my bird as they cannot be left alone, that could mean trouble. God Bless and not to worry Valerie as God seems to be letting people know that I'm resting. Amazing how this is working out. Talk to you later, Peace to you, Denise | ||
| Billtwisse |
The 'restrainer' does refer to God himself (which person of the Trinity?--a moot point) or one his superior angels (who holds back the man of lawlessness from appearing--some of us believe that Rev. 20:1-3 is applicable here). There is really no difference between saying that God is the restrainer and proposing that an angel appointed by God is the restrainer. Satan will still be loosed in God's appointed time. However, it is a gross misinterpretation to interpret the restrainer getting 'out of the way' as referring in any sense to God's presence and forgiveness being removed from his people. Jesus promised never to leave or forsake us; he will be with us to the end of the age (Mt. 28:20). This includes his intercession and forgiveness of all present and future sin. The restrainer getting 'out of the way' means that Satan is released to unleash his final deception on the world--personified in the man of lawlessness. He has been planning this deception for 2000 years and the clock keeps ticking toward that event. The many deceptions of today are precursors of the false parousia (and pave the way for it). We could talk about the 'elements' of the deceiver's message for many weeks. That's my view of it; others will no doubt differ. --Twisse | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Bill, I'm so glad you came. The message that Jesus will never leave nor forsake us is the best message to believe, in light of all the different takes on end times. I whole heartedly believe that this message really needs to be put out there more often. Far too many people honestly believe that somewhere along the way, we will be on our own, without Jesus. This is an awful thing to even think about, let alone believe. As to Revelation 20:1-3, I'm not seeing how these passages can be referring to what Paul is talking about in 2 Thes. 2:6-10. The reason for my saying this is because in Revelation 20:1-3, it is talking about the 1000 year period that the saints rule with Jesus while satan is locked in the abyss. While Paul is not talking about the saints ruling with Jesus when he speaks of the man of lawlessness. Infact, Paul is reassuring these men that they haven't somehow missed the day of the Lord. Paul is telling them what to look for so they will know about this man of lawlessness. Paul doesn't say to them anything about the 1000 years and the man of lawlessness in 2 Thessalonians. No mention of this 1000 years are in 2 Thessalonians. As a matter of fact, Paul is giving them details practically about how this man of lawlessness will behave and what things he will do. He goes on to give them cheer and encouragement because when they see these things, they will know that the 'day of the Lord' is near. And I need to mention too, that this is not satan's last deception. As in Revelation 20 we see satan being loosed from the abyss AFTER the 1000 years to decieve once more. Then he is destroyed forever. But not until the 1000 years of the saints, reigning and ruling with Christ, are over. Seems to me that 2 Thessalonians and Revelation 20 are portraying two seperate events. Anyhow, I'm not a theologian but a simple person, but these Scriptures do not go together. Unless, you are mentioning Revelation 20 only because the Scripture itself is using an angel to chain up satan and thus it could be an angel who is holding back the winds aka the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians. What are your thoughts on this and am I making any kind of sense? God Bless you with patience, :) Denise (the berean) |
