| Author | Message | ||
| George |
(As you will see I have found out how.) I don't know how to start my own, so here, it goes. See what you all think of this, This last spring My sister got me to start posting on this forum, by getting me going on the once saved always saved thing. In answer to one of my posts Lori said that Christ died for the wicked too. Well, what a shocking thought, He not only died for the sins of those that are going to heaven, but He died for the sins of those that are going to hell also. Now if He died for the sins of the wicked and they go to hell what's going on here? I thought that by dying for our sins He assured us a place in heaven, but some of those He died for are not going to be there. I got to thinking that it must not be the things we usually call sins that that keep us out. John 3:16 says that who ever believes on Him will have everlasting life. And I think verse 18 adds to that. If believing gives us everlasting life, then not believing must give us death. So now, it seems that all those things we we like to call sins may not keep us out of heaven after all, it is just the "sin" of unbelief. Patti was so kind as to find a lot of verses that backed up that idea, but with out the "word search" I can't find them. If all this is true, it leaves us in somewhat of a mess, as the Bible talks about a lot more than the "sin" of unbelief. It seems there is a whole host of things that are sins, and all of them could keep us out of heaven. What, do we have a contradiction here? Seems like it doesn't it. How are we going to solve this? I think it is in Rom 14 that it says--if you believe it is a sin and do, it then it is a sin for you. Take a close look at this, if we believe it is a sin and do it anyway what are we doing? Going against our beliefs. Think about it, if we go against our belief in Christ we go to hell, perhaps going against our other beliefs is what makes all those other sins. So maybe it isn't so much whether a thing is a sin for you and not for me, but our beliefs about them when we do those things. George By Valm on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 04:29 am: George, Do you wear yourself out with all of this? I am not trying to be critical but sometimes when I read your posts I become exhausted. JUST BELIEVE and then enjoy the ride. George, Jesus did die for sinners and I am I am one of them. But he didn't die so I could take my ranks up in hell; he died to cover me with HIS GRACE. HIS GRACE is sufficient for you too. I think you did find the correct thread to write in. This is one of the most toxic and abusive parts of SDAism. It is that the system never allows its members to REST in JESUS. It counsels its members to NEVER ALLOW THEMSELVES to be confident of their never ending relationship with him. George, once you can get over this, sinning or not sinning will not be an issue. You will let the HOLY SPIRIT guide you and know that GRACE COVERS YOU when you REALLY MESS UP. Chyna, Yes it is the which comes first the chicken or the egg thing. I am not for sure either it is probably a little of both. Controlling people are attracted to they system because of the control element. Out of control people are attracted to it because it places things in order for them. And sincere people are sucked in by their desire to do what is right. In your last statement you said "you are so close to it you canot see the shape of it anymore" and that is so true. Part of that is due to the gradual process that goes on. Each new restriction adds up and what would have seemed utterly rediculous years ago seemes reasonable now. My family speaks of transitional diet for the newcomer. You start with not eating certain types of meat to then lacto ovo vegetarian to then a vegan diet and to then restrictions within that diet also. Another example is you start with taking off jewelry and then making sure your clothes are more modest and then no pants and before you know it the whole family walks down the street looking like Mennonites. Neither of these things does anything to exuberate God's love. Being God's peculiar people means (to me) that my contact with people leaves them with such a warmth that they say "Wow that was a refreshing encounter, I wonder what she did this morning?" Hey everyone have a really nice day; go forward in GRACE with confidence that JESUS is ours. Valerie By George on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 08:21 am: Val and Chyna, I think you both have missed my point. I can remember sitting in a corner room in Tampa Junior Academy in Florida and being told during baptism brainwashing that I was save by grace and not works. What was grace? I didn't know but it was nothing I did but something He did. So I don't and haven't had any trouble with the works, grace issue. I believe that once I accept His salvation I am saved period. I also believe I can give up that salvation if I want to, other wise I have a license to do what ever I want and don't have to pay the price for it. The issue is, 1. There are verses in the Bible that say the only sin is unbelief. 2. There are verses in the Bible that say, if I think something is a sin then it is one for me if I do it. What kind of sins are these in example No. 2? Do they not count? What are the consequences of doing them? These questions have to be answered before I will go any farther. I will not just say, they don't matter just because I don't understand them. George By Valm on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 09:13 am: George, I can not answer number two for you anybetter than you can answer number two for me. I can only tell you what has worked well for me. I live by GRACE. The first thing I say when I wake up in the morning is that HIS GRACE is sufficient for me. From that point forward I ask myself is the activity or thought I am engaging in honoring the gift GOD gave me? I do my best and the rest is covered by GRACE. If I deliberated on sin or not sin I would become flat out discouraged and exhausted. To me that is where SDAism didn't work. The constant focus on sin and perfection distracted all of us from what it is really about, growing in grace. I will close with Max's blessing, you truely are Christ's and God Bless you. Valerie | ||
| Max |
NIV Jude 3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who CHANGE the GRACE of our God INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. 5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. 8 In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10 Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--these are the very things that destroy them. 11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion. 12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever. The NIV text note to "CHANGE the GRACE of our God INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY" says: "They assume that salvation by grace gives them the right to sin without restraint, either because God in his grace will freely forgive all their sins, or because sin, by contrast, magnifies the grace of God." | ||
| Max |
NIV Romans 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? NIV text note to "the law was added" says: "Not to bring about redemption but to point up the need for it. The law made sin even more sinful by revealing what sin is in stark contrast to God's holiness." NIV text note to "Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?" "This question arose out of what Paul had just said in 5:20: 'Where sin increased, grace increased all the more; such a question expresses an antinomian (against law [or pro-lawlessness]) viewpoint. Apparently some objected to Paul's teaching of justification by faith alone because they thought it would lead to moral irresponsibility." | ||
| George |
I will say again, grace is not an issue for me. All of you have to remember I have been away from SDAism for more than 30 years and the brainwashing has been wiped out a long time ago. I don't know how much more clear I can make it than that. for me all this Bible stuff has to fit together like a well oiled machine, every piece dependent on every other one, with no pieces floating around to fall into the works and tare things up. If all we have to do to get to heaven is believe in Christ then God sure wasted a lot of words, all He would have to have said disbelieve in My Son and you have it made. Well guess what folks he said a lot more than that. In one place His Son says believe in Me and you will get to heaven. In another place the Father tells Paul to say--If you think something is a sin then it is for you if you do it. In another place He has someone say --the wages of sin is death. Well I guess this is just another case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand says. If this is the case then I guess God doesn't know the end from the beginning. and if this is true then it IS just a big joke. I don't believe in any sacred mysteries, it is all there to be understood. If all has to fit together or it will crumble down into a pile of dung and the Bible is no better than a Sears Catalogue. George | ||
| Max |
NIV James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith [head faith, not heart faith] but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, [head] faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your [head] faith without deeds, and I will show you my [heart] faith by what I do. 19 You believe [head believing, not heart believing] that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe [give cold, intellectual assent devoid of warm, heart believing] that--and shudder. NIV text note to "You have faith; I have deeds" says: "The FALSE claim is that there are 'faith' Christians and 'deeds' Christians, i.e., that faith and deeds can exist independently of each other." NIV text note to "Show me your faith without deeds" says: "Irony; James denies the possibility of this." --------------------- The truth speaks for itself. I have no apologies to make for appropriately quoting Holy Scripture and for pointing out the error those who misuse and abuse it. Max of the Cross | ||
| George |
Max, Why don't you read what I write with an open mind? If you did you would find that I agree with much of what you say. Because of the way you are quoting scripture and not add any dialoge I can only think you are letting the verses do the talking for you. How dare you throw verses at me like you think I am the devil or some other dispicable evil, when I am only trying to understand His word. If this marrow minded Pig headedness is what Christianity is all about, I DON'T WANT ANY OF IT. This atitude is what got me to give it all up to begin with. Ask Maryann about Allen and his bunch, as you and he are about the same. George | ||
| George |
Max You need to apologise for taking things out of contex but more so for slandering Patti with MY words. But I supose you are too arrogant to see that. George | ||
| Chyna |
dear george, to me it feels like you are spinning in circles, but not going anywhere. as i posted in the other topic, sin is this: sin is missing the mark whose mark? God's. what did Adam and Eve do? they sinned. what did they do? they went against God. God told them specifically "do not X" and they did "X" you know what? i bet you can have a really clear glimpse of the definition of sin by reversing 1 Corinthians 13 having hate, sin is impatient, sin is cruel, is jealous; sin does brag {and} is arrogant, sin does act unbecomingly; it seeks its own, it is provoked, takes into account a wrong {suffered, rejoices in unrighteousness, rejoices with lies; 7 bears nothing, believes nothing, hopes nothing, endures nothing. 8 sin ALWAYS fails; 13 But now unbelief, despair, hatred, abide these three; but the most terrible of these is hatred. to be honest George, you have the knowledge of good and evil. it was given to us through adam and eve and the tree of knowledge. it is, as jerry seinfeld laughingly refers to it as: the dark side. the part of you that you know, taken on it's own merit does not deserve to be loved. it is the selfish, greedy, lying, perverted, unjust, cruel tendencies that lie, not too far underneath the surface. when i think of people that commit great crimes i think that that capacity is inside us all, just look at the holocaust, just look at the holy wars, the fighting the killing, the prostitution, the uncared for poor think of EVERYTHING that causes sorrow in this world and that is SIN, that is EVIL. and that is why i am soooo happy about heaven because sin will not be there, yes, John 3:16, God died for all. just as God causes rain to fall on the kings and the beggars. God is Holy, what keeps us from Him is our sinfulness. not just unbelief george, but our very beings are sinful (coz of our sinful nature). even one sin is enough to separate us from God. because think of God as pure unadulterated white. and we are black specked. if we are truly honest we will admit we are grimy, our hands are filthy, the bible even writes that our righteousness/good deeds are like FILTHY RAGS before God. why? b/c of His holiness. only when we accept salvation do we get to become white as snow. that is the condition. otherwise even though Jesus died for all, if they do not accept him, they are still seen by God as sinful. because it is only because of Jesus' sinless life that God sees put on us that we can be close to God. hope this helps, Chyna | ||
| Patti |
George, I have not been on here for weeks, since the death of my brother. Things just seem different now; it is just not worth the effort to argue with someone who you already know will disparage, distort, and deny your every word. (I am not referring to you here.) George, since I have no desire to get back into the quagmire of being attacked for my every statement of Gospel, please write me privately. You ask some very good questions. I would like to discuss them with you. You asked if Christ died for the sins of the wicked. You do know, don't you, that one aspect of Calvinism is the Limited Atonement--that Christ died only for the sins of the saints. For me this is yet another non-issue. Our message is not to be that Christ died for some and not for others; nor is it that Christ died for those who spurn His grace. Our message is that "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." This is the Gospel. There is no such dichotomy as "head faith" and "heart faith." The people who make such a distinction are merely trying to put us back under the law, as the Galatians were doing. We are saved by our faith, our belief, our trust, in the saving work of Jesus Christ alone. Nothing that we "do" has any effect on our salvation whatsoever. Only the merits of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will pass the judgment. Jesus asks us--no commands us--to trust in Him, that His grace is sufficient for us. Please do not listen to the voices who try to tell you differently; they are not holy voices that are saying this. Jesus Christ, His life, His death, His resurrection, is our full salvation. We can add nothing of value to His marvelous work of love and mercy for us. May God truly bless you and yours this joyous season of the Advent of our Lord and Savior, With Christian love, Patti | ||
| Loneviking |
Now George, hang on a minute here. I don't see Max 'throwing verses' at you. You wanted a Biblical answer and he gave it to you, chapter and verse. No, there's not a lot of dialog, but then what else is there to say? The Bible, IMHO, is clear that belief is not enough---even Satan and his angels belive but that doesn't save them. Belief is the first step in a transformation of the individual. Because of the developing transformation, good works are seen. You can't have one and not have the others. Does that mean we 'work' our way to heaven? No! What is means is that because we are ON our way to heaven, and our priorities are changed, we are more willing to stop and lend a hand (good works). The farther along we progress in our Christian journey, the more natural it is for us to do these good works because we are becoming closer to the ideal that God designed us for. Does this help? | ||
| Valm |
George, I don't think you will find anything like a well oiled machine. There will always seem to be inconsistencies and there will always be doubts. As people we will always have disagreement on these details. I know you have been away from Adventism for a real long time but that does not mean there still are not claws locked in you. I don't say this with criticism, I have some too. WE ALL DO. I wished there was a way I could help you but I find this whole situation frustrating. George, I have heard you say that you understand the concept of salvation I even remember one post saying I believe that once I accept salvation as if it might be a future tense. I get the impression you have many doubts about whether you accept it or not. This is not a question you should have to answer to any of us. This is just an observation which I hope you take in a non critical tone. George, I will confess to you that the whole concept of requiring an atoning sacrifice does not appeal to the logical side of me at all. I don't understand why it needs to be this way on a cognitive level. I can't even at this point in time articulate my thoughts on it. But for whatever reasons, I believe that Christ's grace is sufficient for me. I believe he is my mediator and connection to God. Trust me when I say my system of logic and faith is not a well oiled machine. What does this have to do with the conversation about sin? I guess what I wish to share with you is do not wait to rest in the joy or God once you understand everything. It probably won't happen in this life time. From my perspective you come across as needing a satisfactory answer to this question to tie together the pieces so you can make a decision on whether you wish to be in or not. None of the answers that anyone gives seems to be satisfactory to you. I do not know what to say to you anymore than what I have already and others have. I think that it is time for you to make a giant leap of faith and know that eventually you will sort this out in your mind. George, I want you to know that I did not mean to offend you in anyway. I am sorry if I came across that way. I wish you all the very best and hope that you will sort this out. Valerie | ||
| George |
Patti, Thanks for writing. I have an idea you see the question I am bringing up. If we can get the answer to it then we can be truly nonlegalistic. We wont have to worry so much about what we do or don't do (legalism) but the kind of behavior, or if you will the concept behind it all. I would like very much to write you but I don't have your address. George | ||
| George |
Loneviking, If the verses Max posted had anything to do with the question I would not have felt they were being thrown at me. As it is they seemed to be telling me I should not be a free thinker and should think as he does. Well that will NEVER happen. So far I think Maryann and Patti are the ony ones that see what I an trying to say, the rest of you hve missed the boat. George | ||
| George |
Val, You may not wnat to believe this but I am rather hard to offend. The reason the answers are not satisfactory is because they din't address the question. Yes I understand salvation, and no I have not accepted it yet. And yes I will not do so till I can see that it is not an unclear mix of leagelism, works, grace and mystory. Thanks for writing---George | ||
| Patti |
Hi, George, My email address is drpatti@msn.com. Write me anytime, but be patient, as I am having some connection problems right now. Also will be out of town for a week beginning Thurs. As for our salvation, George, there are really only two views: Either we are saved by the historic and unrepeatable saving act of Jesus Christ for us alone or we are saved, at least in part, by something that we do or we are. There are no other possibilities. When we choose to throw our "work" into the mix, we have gravitated to legalism. In the strictest sense, we are not even saved by our faith. Our faith is much too weak. (Remember, Jesus said if we had faith the size of a grain of mustard seed, we could move mountains. We do not even have that much faith.) We are saved only by the mercy of God in forgiving us for our sinfulness. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. We can do nothing else. Our only hope is the extrinsic, perfect, complete, and finished righteousness of Jesus Christ which is freely imputed to us when we trust in His merits. Jesus Christ is our everything: our justification, our sanctification, our glorification. When we trust in His merits, we have all of the promises of God. He is faithful; He will keep His Word to us and save us to the uttermost. God bless. Patti | ||
| Valm |
George, I am glad you are not easy to offend. I tend to be pretty frank and loose my diplomacy. I have yet to find anything that is truely clear in my life. That is why I suggest a giant leap of faith. I am not a theologian. And I guess I don't understand the question. Could you concisely restate the question in less than a paragraph, a short paragraph. Maybe in all that you have to say we are not focusing on the topic. I do not know. But why not give it another shot? | ||
| Maryann |
Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese! I am sooooooooooo totally emotionally exhausted from my trip to Las Vegas and the "stuff" that went with it and the emotional stress of having Mom in Redlands with me! I will try to say something later tonight if I can see straight;-) In the meantime: I will still stand on the idea that we need to DIALOGUE!! That is, ask questions and discuss rather than STATE and argue. WE NEED TO TRY TO WRAP OUR MIND AROUND THE OTHER GUY'S THOUGHTS and if we don't understand, ask more questions till that person is understood. I have to admit that I do have the advantage of understanding George a bit better than you guys AND I have to admit that it is hard to understand where he is coming from at times;-) As to Patti: I think she has a great grasp on grace, and that is great. I would like to talk to her about the Christian life and the guidence that so much of the Bible is devoted to that comes AFTER salvation. I DON'T EVER remember her supporting the idea that we should sin that grace may abound!!!! But, since so much has been said over the months, I decided to discuss this privately if she wants, so we can simply, "one on one" this issue that was SOOOO hot a few months ago. Just remember, everyone has different ways thinking and God made them (us) that way! SOME people HAVE to dialogue and discuss. If everyone has to simply HEAR something and believe, the whole world would be saved right now. For what ever reason (ask God, he's the designer) a lot of people have to disect, analyze, ponder, worrywart before they can HEAR what they are HEARING. Oops, I'm getting wound up again! Look at the school system. You have about 3 kinds of learners! The below achievers. The average achievers. The above average achievers. If each individual child was taught according to his "OWN" learning patterns, there would most likely be more uniformity in learning achievements!!!! One kid can hear a thing and grasp it. Another kid can read it and get it. And another kid has to hear it, read it, study it, disect it, talk about it and so on. When that kid that has to hear it, read it, study it, disect it, talk about it and so on has a text on, let's say, science put in front of him over and over and over, he will get VERY angry and most likely slip to the bottom of his class because he is NOT being taught or approached the way he NEEDS to be taught. SOOOOOOOOO, it takes more time to deal with someone that needs to hear it, read it, study it, disect it, talk about it and so on! But, it's worth it in the long run. Some of the most brilliant people in history had severe problems in school for no other reason than their learning style was not accommidated! Look at the pattern Paul gave us!!!!!!! His letters are soooo different in their teaching methods! Suppose he gave the same spiel to the Jews in Rome as the Christians in Galatia? There would have been a lot more words falling on deaf ears than did!! We are privileged to have all those letters to a variety of Christians. They show without a doubt that we MUST adapt our conversations, thoughts and teachings in a flexable manner to those that have different backgrounds, thinking and learning patterns than us!!!! Could that be why it is such a responsibility to teach God's word!? Our number one job should be to be flexable WITHIN THE GUIDELINES OF THE BIBLE to accomidate even the most difficult thought patterns and there are plenty out there! And....I'm so thankful that there are people that understand my thought and learning patterns as mine are not the average and normal, down the middle of the road kind. Wound up and spinning........Maryann;-) | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^There is no such dichotomy as "head faith" and "heart faith."^^ Can you prove that from Scripture alone? No, you cannot. | ||
| Max |
Patti, Do you agree with Jude that "They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immarality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord"? NIV Jude 4. | ||
| Max |
Patti, Do you agree with the James? He wrote: "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that -- and shudder." NIV James 2:18-19. |
