| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello George, Yes, I will mull the next question around in my head and post on it tomorrow. Although, I readily answered it in my head already. But for now, rest George and we shall talk again tomorrow. God Bless you, especially for your stamina, Denise, your sister in Christ Jesus | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Maryann, Praise the Lord for His Mighty Hand in your conversation! Do we serve a GREAT GOD or what? I'm smiling at my own imaginings as to how that coversation took place. May God Bless you and your mother with His Peace. May He give sheltering protection to your entire household. your sister in Christ Jesus, Denise | ||
| Max |
George, ^^By about the same percentage I don't understand you eather. I guess we will just have to agree we don't understand. What do you say? :-) ^^ I say, God love you, brother! | ||
| Max |
Maryann, ^^I thought I'd ask Mom if sinning against our conscience was a sin about 8pm and she just now ducked into her room! ^^ There are a lot of people in America, Christ-claimers, who take the OT command against "eating" blood literally. Their consciences tell them that getting a blood transfusion = "eating" blood. And they have allowed many of their children to die by denying the hospital's or the doctor's decision to give their dying children blood transfusions to save their lives. Many have gone to prison for this crime as defined by the laws of our land. (Keep in mind that Paul says that the government of the law wields the "sword of God" and justly so.) Is "going against their conscience" and allowing a medical blood transfusion to keep their child alive a sin? These parents say yes, refuse to allow it, let their child die, and go to prison for their faith. This is no hypothetical situation. It has happened probably hundreds of times in American in the past quarter century. What do you say? | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Max, I know that this question was put to Maryann but I would like to comment on it nonetheless as it hits home with me. In matters of conscience, I will add that we are told by God to also use our reasoning abilities. As a child of a father who also believed this very thing of no blood transfusions, for a short time only, as you have described above, I can say that in time he (my father) ended his last few years balancing the teachings of the Church with his own God given reasoning powers. That to me is what I myself am now putting into practice. Whereas before, it was strictly by what the doctrine of whatever denomination said was so. These things I struggle with from time to time, such as medications to mention one. My conscience was feeling as though I was going against God for taking life saving medications, yet, my reason would ponder this; 'God surely would not want me to die, would he?' This struggle existed due to my upbringing with my father who was a faithful man to the Church but was trying to find that fine line where being faithful to the Church was at the same time, not destroying his family and their health and welfare. God says "Let us Reason." Eventually, my father would use his reasoning, especially in matters as strong and important as these. When it came to food, we tried the vegetarian diet but alas, my father was just as carnivorus (sp) as I am today. However, he did not feel it to go against God so much as he was trying to please men by being vegetarian. In the end here too, my father point blank found Scripture defying the Church's rule and stood with God's word. I was not allowed to pledge allegiance to the flag as child either and very often I was expelled from school. Same with ALL holidays. While in school the teacher would have special fun for the holidays, making gifts, ornaments, decorations etc., I was not allowed to participate and also dismissed or expelled from school on this topic as well. Needless to say I was the laughing stock of all the other children and didn't have but one or two friends, who were also outcasts. Before I entered school, my father was in some religion that forbade vaccinations for polio and the like. I was not allowed in school unless I had these shots. There arose a great battle in court, wherein my father lost and I had to get the shots and eat the sugar cube. I remember my father crying because he had to obey the law of the land but in so doing, go directly against his beliefs at that time. I did end up in an iron lung but have no parents to ask what that was about. I understand that we are told to obey our leaders of the land but keep in mind that Peter was crucified, so was Jesus, and all of the rest of the martyrs down through history for not obeying the law of the land but rather obeying God. In the end of it all, we obey God, not the rulers of our society. This too is Scriptural. We do not forsake God to obey the leaders of the land. This is where we have to use our reasoning powers given us by God Himself. That is my opinion and only a small portion too as I have much to say regarding the law of the land/country/government et. al. As a matter of fact, are not we all dis-obeying our leaders of the SDA Church. Are not some of us against abortion, yet the law of the land allows it, do we not cringe at killing even an enemy during wartime, yet our government sanctions it, do some of us believe it is okay to smoke marijauana because in the state of California it is legal? What about capitol punishment? Many Christians believe that because we must obey the government that we are not to protest this. Yet God says, Thou shalt not kill. This list could go on and on, but in the end of it all, we obey God in all reality and for the most part. If ever came a time to say that we do not believe in God otherwise be killed, would we be killed or disown God to obey the government or law of the land? The law of the land is only good when sanctioned by God. This is my opinion only and I'm sure there will be many who disagree. God Bless us all, everyone, Denise Gilmore, daughter of Denzil L. Gilmore P.S. I am very proud of my father. He was a good man, a faithful man to God and a very good father to me. I watched him call Church pastors hypocrits on more than one occasion. I watched him cry in distress in trying to find the right path for his family. God Rest his soul. He ended his life with the Gospel of Jesus Christ and against all odds, stood with the Word of God. My belief is that we 'reason' on such matters. If God did not want us to use our brains, He would not have given us brains to use. God Bless us all with the guts to use our God given reasoning powers along with His Mighty Sword, His Word, Denise | ||
| Max |
Thank you, Denise, for that heartfelt post. How dare we human beings consider God so stupid as to hold us to our own hell-bent consciences rather than to His Word? | ||
| Max |
Ps. I know I posted that I thought sin was trying to control God. But I should have posted this: I think sin is trying or thinking to be sovereign. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Or this way: We think we are trying to be Sovereign. Or we are trying to think of ourselves as Sovereign. Or in thinking about Sovereingty we try the harder to be Soveriegn. Or thinking if we try, we will become Sovereign. God Bless us all, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Or, Sovereignty becomes our way of thinking if we try. Or, Trying to think more oft in Soverign terms, we become what we think. Or, by simply being Sovereign as some hierarchy think, there is no need to think to try or even try to think. There are many equations we silly humans can come up with, yet in all these equations, only God knows the right Sovereign equation. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
But I still stand on my belief that our very consciences, if we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit and we pay heed to His leading, are governed by His ways, not ours. God Bless us all, Denise | ||
| Cindy |
George, Good Morning! I must admit, I get confused reading your posts and questions sometimes. I feel like we are in some kind of contest to get the answer to your questions exactly right! We really do try to understand you! I know I would like to meet you someday! I guess, to me at least, my focus is more "just give me Jesus,"... not whether something is a sin or not. I do mourn my inadequate personality many times! I desire a more perfect love for others, less selfishness, less pride and self-righteousness, less WORRY about my present and future... And yet, my passion is Christ; and I know I can REST fully in Him for all these traits. He is working in me no matter how slow it seems to me. I have loved all that Patti has wrote on this topic. We sin because we are sinners. We are infected totally with this disease... Our only cure is Christ's Righteousness! And Colleen's thoughts on being spiritually dead versus spiritually alive were good...(Hi Colleen, :-)) ) What Max brought out also, I would agree with. Sin is a matter of trying to take God's place of Sovereignty. What do you think of this quote from Oswald Chambers? (emphasis supplied) "...sin is NOT immorality and wrong-doing, but the disposition of SELF-realization--I am my own god. This disposition may work out in DECOROUS MORALITY or INDECOROUS IMMORALITY, but it has the one basis, my claim to my right to myself. When our Lord faced men with all the forces of evil in them, and men who were clean living and moral and upright, He did not pay any attention the the MORAL DEGRADATION of the one or to the MORAL ATTAINMENT of the other; He looked at something we do not see,..the disposition." Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Patti |
Very good, as usual, Cindy. I love what you said: "..my passion is Christ..." What a wonderful obsession to have! May God truly bless you all over this holiday season. Lord willing, I will see you after Christmas. | ||
| Maryann |
I gotta run but, Max... In reference to the blood transfusions and eating cheese etc etc etc etc. Obviously, refusing a blood transfusion and causing the death of a child or youself is STUPID and in fact very close to murder or suicide. Eating cheese is obviously NOT a sin! That is NOT the ISSUE in my question!!!;-) The question in reference to the cheese is that (I think I have the story right) George was a kid that was taught that eating cheese was wrong. Eating cheese was NOT allowed in the house, sooooo, naturally a thinking kid would think it was a SIN. He ate cheese one day!!! Oops!! Now he felt guilty for doing something he thought was a sin that was NOT a SIN, yet was feeling guilty!!! Did he sin against his conscience? I think he did. Mistaken as he was by some legalistic law laid on him, he still went against what he BELIEVED, honestly believed, was a sin. Same thing with the JWs. They will die, litterally die for their MISTAKEN twisted understanding of the "blood" issue. They are NOT just trying to kill their kids or them selves! They are following what they truly BELIEVE is Biblical! Are they sinning against their conscience when one of them sneaks a blood transfusion? I think so. As to these sins that people think have to be eradicated for translation to heaven. Going back to John 3:16-18. My understanding is that UNBELIEF is what keeps you out of the kingdom of God/heaven. Therefore, unbelief is the only sin that will keep you out of heaven. The rest of the Christian life/walk after conversion/salvation is accepted, is infiltrated/indwelled by the Holy Spirit and He is guiding us. Do I think that sinning against ones conscience, like eating cheese will send you to hell? NOOOOO! Those sins OR supposed sins are part of this SICK, SINFUL human carnal nature Adam infested us with! We will NEVER get rid of the "old man sin" in our lives! We sure can and should strive to live a life that REPRESENTS the Lord. The closer we are to God and His word the closer we will walk with Him. Anything we do before we have a new everything at the 2nd coming is sin. Our very existence is sin, our breath is sin and praise God that is not what our eternal citizenship in heaven is about. I did find out last night that I need to learn to talk different and live different so I can enjoy heaven!!!!!!!!!! Sheeeeeeeeese! My head hurts;-( Maryann | ||
| George |
Cindy, I can see how you and the others have gotten frustrated with me. Picture what happened yesterday like this---I was on a road to New York and wanted you guys to come along so we could talk about that city. You all started out on the road with me but took a left turn and were headed to Portland Or. Both are good places to go but I was determined to get to New York. Finally Denise decided to come along for the ride and brought Max along. Denise has laid the ground work to get into areas I have been trying to get in to almost ever since I first started posting and is what this whole thread has been leading up to. Which is, most if not all of us are feeling a lot more guilt than we need to. I think most of the guilt we feel is imposed on us by others as well as by ourselves by a lack of understanding the Bible and not by God. If we can use the idea that sins are going against our conscience, we can then use our conscience as a tool to help KEEP US FROM sinning rather than something that says YOU BLEW IT and now you have to say you are sorry. One of the reasons I have been trying so hand to get to this point is, Maryann and I have literally watched false guilt drive a young man crazy, which ultimately caused his death, and I feel the death of his brother too. I will have to reread your quote and comment later. To those I have offended in my quest to get this conversation where it is now, I must say I a truly sorry. George | ||
| George |
Maryann, What's this all about? I did find out last night that I need to learn to talk different and live different so I can enjoy heaven!!!!!!!!!! Sheeeeeeeeese! My head hurts;-( George | ||
| Max |
Hi all, Another situation: When I was attending La Sierra University one year there was a world conference of Jehovah's Witnesses going on in downtown Los Angeles. The Witnesses had rented a huge arena for the event and were staying in roundabout hotels. At lunch time and other breaks in the procedings they would spill out onto the streets and go do shopping, get something to eat (I guess), and do whatever other errands. One day a group of them was crossing a busy street with the WALK sign. A motorist ran the red light, smashed through the group, injured many Witnesses and killed two outright. In court the man said he was following his conscience. For the Lord had told him that Jehovah's Witnesses were evil, and like the Canaanites of Joshua's time, were to be destroyed from the face of the earth: men, women, children, unborn babies, cattle, etc. Therefore, if he did NOT to mow them down and kill as many as he could, he would have beengoing against his conscience and therefore sinning against the REAL Jehovah, who was not the God of the Witnesses at all, since their god was the devil. The story ran for weeks in the Los Angeles Times and all other papers, was on TV, radio, everywhere. Question: Would this man have been sinning if he had pushed on the break pedal instead of the gas pedal? | ||
| Max |
Ps. Another question: How stupid do we think our God is? | ||
| Max |
George, At last I understand you -- at least, I THINK I do -- now that you have mentioned the cheese illustration. God bless you, brother: And my answer to you would be this: No, you were not sinning when you ate the cheese as a child. This goes to the question, Is our God stupid? Answer: No, He is not stupid. And neither are you. I sense a high intelligence at work in you and a deep desire to get at truth no matter what. Again, God bless you always, Max of the Cross | ||
| George |
Denise, I enjoyed reading your posts very much and your father sounds like a very wonderful person and very sincere. What memories you must have. While you are mulling things over, how about adding false guilt to the mix and see what you come up with. I would be very interested. George | ||
| Max |
George, Far from sinning when you ate the cheese as a child, you were following the leading of the Holy Spirit. God was chasing you down and telling you there was another way to live. The impulse toward freedom was God's impulse sent to you, breaking through your wrongfully trained conscience. Our God is a God of liberty. Love is the fulfilling of the Law of Christ (love), which has replaced the Old Covenant Ten Commandments. So you believed it was wrong at the time? That was Satan speaking to you. I don't believe that Romans 14 applied to your situation at the time, since you were a child imprisoned by Satan's belief system. Paul in Romans 14 was talking about mature Christians. Some believed eating pork offered to idols was a sin. Others didn't. Paul wanted each believer to respect the opinions of each other believer in "disputed matters" only. A child under the influence of parents who are not Spirit-directed is a different matter entirely. At least this is the way I see it, and I had my own very similar issues. God's eternal blessings, Max of the Cross |
