| Author | Message | ||
| George |
Maryann, Children as a rule don't show their natural "bent" to much of anything until they are ten or so. By then it is to late if you haven't taught them to be "good" people---Honesty, integrity, compassion, helpfulness etc.---if these haven't been taught by then you have already lost. The thrust of my post was that you don't have to beat your kids to teach them the above. When kids are taught to be good humans with love, kindness and patience (and I don't mean, I love you smack, I am doing this because I live you smack SMACK!) all you then have to do is encourage them in whatever THEY want to do. If we decide what we think they want to do we could be very wrong, and run the chance of living our missed lives them. Take my oldest for example, when she was 10 she could make up and write stores real good. If I had decided that is what she was to do she wouldn't have gotten a degree in history and then gone on to get a degree in interior design and have a job that she dearly loves, designing sets and what everelse. She could be stuck in a writing job she didn't like or really want. She was taught honesty, integrity and that she could do WHATEVER SHE WANTED TO DO. With a good education the sky was the limit. As you can see I don't think to much of picking the life children should live for them. I guess the shortest way I could say this whole thing is--teach them, don't beat them and they will grow up to be productive happy people. George | ||
| Billtwisse |
Hi all! Maryann, what a life you have had! I, for one, have great admiration for those who attempt great and unusual things, work hard, and pursue their gifts with all diligence. Especially since I'm daily surrounded with a legion of those who are of the opposite caliber! I know it sounds like I'm complaining. For those of us who gain real joy and happiness from working with self-motivated people, I think that God fills our lives with the opposite type of person to build character! Certainly there is a difference between encouraging the unique gifts in children and--in contrast--teaching them against foolishness. I think Proverbs emphasizes more the latter of these two things, if the context is followed. Many other scriptures that emphasize principles of mercy, love, and respect could be cited to bolster the former. We should never have a predetermined mold of our own that children must fit as they grow up--other than a desire to see them converted to Christ and to exercise basic principles of honesty, respect, and self-control. --Twisse | ||
| Valm |
I have been reading Clay Pecks on line book on New Covenant Christians. I have found it very helpful. Clay comments on the allegory of being born to the free woman not Hagar the slave woman. In Paul's allegoroy in Galations 4 he is adressing those who "want to be under the law." Here is Clay's commentary: Paul addresses his comments to "those who want to be under the law." Surprisingly, there were and are those who want to be under law. They find security in having things spelled out in black and white rather than depending on the Spirit to lead according to the law of love written in our heart. They also like to think that salvation ought to be at least partially dependent on their own efforts...... These two women represent two covenants. You can choose which covenant you want to be a part of. The old, given at Mount Sinai, which leads to slavery, or the new, ratified at Mount Calvary, which leads to freedom! Who is your spiritual mother? Hagar or Sarah? It is your choice. Do you want to be a slave child or a free child?..... The slave woman represents the old covenant. What does the Scripture say to do with the old covenant? "Get rid of it!" We are not called to live in slavery, but freedom. New Covenant Christians are not under the old covenant. I encourage you to live as children of the free woman. LITTLE DIALOGUE FROM LITTLE ME: What a wonderful allegory and what wonderful comments from Clay. I had never been read this passage of scripture as a child according to my recollection. | ||
| Colleentinker |
I want to second Val's recommendation of Clay's book. It's wonderful. Praising God for showing us the New Covenant, Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Prayer is a sincere, sensible, affectionate pouring out of the soul to God, through Christ, in the strength and assistance of the Spirit, for such things as God has promised. BUNYAN | ||
| Maryann |
Prayer is not overcoming God's reluctance; it is laying hold of His highest willingness. TRENCH | ||
| Maryann |
What is man's purpose on earth? To reveal our NEW nature through the power of Jesus to His honor and glory, and in turn, lead others to Him. | ||
| George |
Maryann, Or is it to show the rest of the universe it can be done? George | ||
| Max |
If the rest of the universe doesn't know, aren't they then showing a lack of trust in God? And isn't sin a lack of trust in God? So then wouldn't the rest of the universe be sinning and in need of a Redeemer? | ||
| Cindy |
Excellent point, Max! That kind of blows the "great controversy" theme of Adventism doesn't it? All the watching worlds wondering, maybe even doubting, God's absolute love and trustworthiness... Needing us to prove it to them? Grace always, Cindy | ||
| George |
Max, I have heard the "great controversy" and the arguments against it. Now I have some questions. Did Lucifer get "mad" at God and did God kick him out of heaven? Being as how God knows the end from the beginning, wouldn't it have been easier to have just not have created him. He must have had something in mind. If God kicked him out of heaven where did He kick him to? Just out of heaven leaving him access to the earth? If He did this, didn't He know Lucifer would corrupt it? He must have had something in mind. What was it? Surly He didn't let it happen just so He could save us. Who would He be trying to "impress" by doing that, the devil and his bunch? God does not have to prove anything to them. Who is left? I have only one requirement for the answer, It doesn't say why, is not good enough, you have to prove your point or at least give me an opinion. George | ||
| Max |
George, Are you speaking of the SDA version of the great controversy? Ellen G. White copied most of it from other writers. If that's what you're referring to, I don't really want to discuss it. I can't answer these questions, because I don't know the answers. It has not been revealed in Scripture whether Lucifer got mad at God and as a consequence God kicked him out. Nor has it been revealed why God created Satan. We do know from the first chapter of Job that Satan said to God, "Stretch out your [God's] hand and strike everything he [Job] has...." And then God said to Satan, "Very well then, everything he has is in your hands." So in a sense Satan was acting as God's agent or servant in afflicting Job. From this one might infer that God created Lucifer or Satan to be an agent of evil. But I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to draw that conclusion myself. I just don't know why. More next post. | ||
| Max |
NIV Genesis 3:1 reads, ^^Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, "You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"^^ The NIV text note for "serpent" here reads: ^^The great decever clothed himself as a serpent, one of God's good creatures. He insinuated a falsehood and portrayed rebellion as cever, but essentially innocent, self-interest.^^ Therefore, God had Satan go into the garden, into the tree, and into the snake. God had Satan test Eve. And so on. So to try to answer your series of questions.... ^^If God kicked him out of heaven where did He kick him to? Just out of heaven leaving him access to the earth? If He did this, didn't He know Lucifer would corrupt it? He must have had something in mind. What was it?^^ I would have to say from this text and others like it, that God not only left Satan with access to the earth, he (in some sense that we cannot understand very well) directed Satan to do what he did. Again, Satan acted as God's agent. We see this repeated in Scripture over and over. Another example is the "evil spirit from the Lord" that came upon Saul such that he sought to kill David. You said, ^^Surly He didn't let it happen just so He could save us.^^ Why not? | ||
| Allenette |
George has once again asked a very logical question. He has been indoctrinated with these early sci-fi theosophy stories and while at the time of their gestation, there probably werent enuff educated peasants to question them, now, there are. The problem, as I see it, is that most Christians DONT ask them....in their glazed over bliss its easier NOT TO, if the cognitive dissonance even occurs to them. Its much easier to memorize familiar, comforting verses and recite them like mantras, reading into them vague interpretations not unlike looking at your newspaper horoscope and fitting it into whatever is currently happening in one's life. So the stories remain. Sci-fi writers like Ray Bradbury, Robert Heinlein, et al, HAVE thought those thoughts, carried them to much more logical conclusions and written much better potential possibilities relevant to modern conditions than the ancients could have imagined. Am I new agey? Not on your life. I think that is as bogus as insisting on reading ancient mythologies as, pardon the pun, the gospel truth. Bottom line, I aint got NO answers, but I've asked the same questions. George, good luck :-) Max, according to your post above, sounds like you sometimes ask those dern ole heretical questions too :-) Problem as I see it, is, at the end of the day, rhetorically, you rely on faith rather than reason. Doesnt bother me, but, voyeurs onto this website would probably throw their hands up in despair GGG and surf over to the Ayn Rand website for relief ;-) Merry Xmas to all, and to all, a GOOD NIGHT. | ||
| Max |
Hi Allenette, Always enjoy your posts. For myself, I do not posit any such dichotomy as "faith or reason." I posit experience. Why? Because I've had experience. Specifically I've encountered the divine. Moses did so at the burning bush, Isaiah in the temple filled with smoke, Gideon on the grape-stomper turned threshing-floor, Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus, Nathan under the fig tree, the Samaritan woman at the well, etc. I make no claim that my encounter experience was anywhere near on a par with theirs, much less with that of the New Testament writer- witnesses to the Christ event. But "divine encounter experience" all the same. Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am." I say, "God is, therefore I am." Or, "God exists, therefore I exist." Question: How do I know? Answer: I have had an encounter experience with the divine. And this simply does not fit into the "faith vs. reason" scenario. For me, Gospel truth is first and foremost a spiritual reality. For, "God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth." And blessings upon Ayn Rand, Ray Bradbury, Robert Heinlein et al. You too, Max of the Cross | ||
| George |
Max Are you telling me that Lucifer didn't get jealous and get a bunch of angels on his side and get kicked out of heaven? Are you telling me that there is no battle between good and evil? If neither of these things happened I would call into question the reason for this whole mess. sometimes i have a hard time believing there is a God. and to find out there might not be a reason for all this would be just about all I could stand. If a reason for all this can't be found somewhere in the Bible I begin to think the lack of a reason is the missing link that let the Bible come crashing down into a pile of rubble, not at all unlike the missing monkey head in evolution. Surly, after reading the Bible we should be able to use our power of reason to come to some kind of conclusion as to why we are here. If not what was the point of giving us the ability to reason? It seems to me we do this in quite a few other places in the Bible. Things are not adding up again, perhaps I just need a bigger calculator. George | ||
| Max |
George, That was an extremely intelligent and insightful post (as was Allenette's, by the way). In response I have to insist once again that I am not "the answer man." And so in my answer I am able only to speak for myself, not for God, not for Scripture, not for Christianity as a whole, not for FAF, only for myself. First, I praise God that ìthings are not adding up againî for you. Christian philosophers and scientists have been trying to prove the existence of God for many centuries. In my opinion they have all failed. They cannot even prove the existence of spiritual reality of any kind. Or of any religionís status as scientifically or philosophically factual. For agnostics and skeptics -- bless their hearts -- keep punching fresh pinholes in their trial balloons and blowing new doorways in their hopeful dirigibles. And this is where I agree with them, those delightful people, the agnostics and skeptics. I actually get a kick out of seeing them confound the arrogant advocates of any religion or belief system. Of ANY religion or belief system. I donít care if itís: * ìufologyî (belief that aliens from outer space come here in UFOs and abduct us humans and do experiments on us, etc.). * atheism (belief that there is no God or are no gods). * wicca (modern or post-modern witchcraft or ancient paganism). * the beliefs of the Flat Earth Society (yes, there is one; I used to be on their mailing list). * the mind-set of the Ptolemaic system (ancient idea that the earth is the center of the universe with the sun, moon and planets revolving around it with us on it). * monotheism (one God): Judaism, Christianity or Islam. * polytheism (many gods: Hinduism, for instance). * Buddhism (conviction that suffering is inherent in human life and one can be liberated from it by mental and moral self- purification). * any other belief system or mind set or world view or conviction. * including my own. When it comes to human belief systems nobody can prove anything scientifically. Thatís why I get such a kick out of watching my friends the agnostics and skeptics gleefully kicking their holes in ANY human faith or belief system, including my own, encounter-based Christianity. For at least they get to have some fun, even if is -- as it seems to me -- the only kind of joy they ever get. So who am I to begrudge them some happiness? (This is the reason Allenette, bless her, can never "get my goat" no matter how hard or often she tries.) And so now that Iíve said all that, how can I possibly tell you that: * ìLucifer didn't get jealous and get a bunch of angels on his side and get kicked out of heavenî? Or that * ìthere is no battle between good and evilî? I cannot, and I have absolutely no desire to do so or even attempt to. The best I can do is to tell you what I told Allenette: For myself, I do not posit any such dichotomy as "faith or reason." I posit my personal experience. Why? Because I have personally experienced spiritual reality. Specifically I've encountered the divine. Moses did so at the burning bush, Isaiah in the temple filled with smoke, Gideon on the grape-stomper turned threshing-floor, Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus, Nathan under the fig tree, the Samaritan woman at the well, etc. I make no claim that my encounter experience was anywhere near on a par with theirs, much less with that of the New Testament writer- witnesses to the Christ event. But it is "divine encounter experience" all the same. Rene Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am." I say, "God is, therefore I am." Or, "God exists, therefore I exist." Question: How do I know? Answer: I have had an "encounter experience" with the divine. It came to me; I did not go to it. And encounter-based Christian faith simply does not fit into the "faith vs. reason" scenario as it is normally battled out in debate circles. For me, gospel truth is first and foremost a spiritual reality. For, "God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth." And now you write, ^^If neither of these things happened [(1) Lucifer getting jealous and (2) starting a war in heaven] I would call into question the reason for this whole mess. Sometimes I have a hard time believing there is a God. And to find out there might not be a reason for all this would be just about all I could stand.^^ George, my friend, I donít know how you could possibly ìfind out there might not be a reason for all this.î For the strange dilemma for agnostics and skeptics is -- again, my opinion only -- that they donít have anything to believe in. I as a Christian could argue that they do too have faith. They have faith that the chairs that theyíre sitting in wonít suddenly turn to straw and collapse under them. But I never argue that way (though many Christians do). And I think it would be silly for me to argue that way. Because as I see things, there is a fundamental difference between having shared assumptions (skeptics and believers sharing the idea -- or having faith -- that their chairs wonít collapse) and having shared convictions about spiritual realities. And so you write, ^^If a reason for all this can't be found somewhere in the Bible I begin to think the lack of a reason is the missing link that let the Bible come crashing down into a pile of rubble, not at all unlike the missing monkey head in evolution.^^ To which I say, Good! Let it all come crashing down into a pile of rubble. Iíve been there and done that. Didnít kill me. Instead, it set me up for my encounter with the spiritual reality I have come to know as God, a personal being who numbers the hairs of my head, who gives me the bread of life to eat and the water of life to drink. And again you write, ^^Surely, after reading the Bible we should be able to use our power of reason to come to some kind of conclusion as to why we are here.^^ Well, friend George, be my guest. But donít expect me to tell you that youíre going to arrive at your conclusion -- or ANY conclusion at all -- by using your power of reason alone -- even as good as I perceive it to be. One wonderful thing about Scripture is that it never attempts to prove that there is a God. It always ASSUMES that there is One. It says things like, ìThe fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.î But ìthe foolî here is not the atheist or intellectual skeptic, but rather the sneaky moral lawbreaker -- the adulterer, for example -- who thinks that heíll never get caught or be brought to account for his actions by the God who, down deep, he really does believe exists. He is one who thinks he, like Adam and Eve still in Eden, can hide in the bushes from God. Well, lots of luck to him; he's going to need it. And so you ask, ^^What was the point of giving us the ability to reason?^^ Do you want my answer? Or are you only making a rhetorical point? If you want my answer, my opinion, here it is: I find it in NIV Psalm 139:13 For you [Yahweh] created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, 16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. 17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! 18 Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand. When I awake, I am still with you. In other words, God gave me the ability to reason so I could think thoughts such as these AFTER His, for His thoughts are higher than mine as the heavens are higher than the earth. For me this is reason enough and more than apleanty. It gives the air of heaven to my lungs, wings to my feet and health to my bones. A bigger calculator, my friend George? No, the one you have is plenty big enough. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
INTERESTED IN THE FLAT EARTH SOCIETY? HERE'S INFO: International Flat Earth Research Society known as FLAT EARTH SOCIETY Charles K. Johnson, President Marjory Waugh Johnson, Sec. Telephone: (805) 727-1635 PO Box 2533, Lancaster, CA 93539 Aim: To carefully observe, think freely rediscover forgotten fact and oppose theoretical dogmatic assumptions. To help establish the United States ... of the the world on this flat earth. Replace the science religion ... with SANITY The International Flat Earth Society is the oldest continuous Society existing on the world today. It began with the Creation of the Creation. First the water ... the face of the deep ... without form or limits ... just Water. Then the Land sitting in and on the Water, the Water then as now being flat and level, as is the very Nature of Water. There are, of course, mountains and valleys on the Land but since most of the World is Water, we say, "The World is Flat." Historical accounts and spoken history tell us the Land part may have been square, all in one mass at one time, then as now, the magnetic north being the Center. Vast cataclysmic events and shaking no doubt broke the land apart, divided the Land to be our present continents or islands as they exist today. One thing we know for sure about this world ... the known inhabited world is Flat, Level, a Plain World. We maintain that what is called 'Science' today and 'scientists' consist of the same old gang of witch doctors, sorcerers, tellers of tales, the 'Priest-Entertainers' for the common people. 'Science' consists of a weird, way-out occult concoction of gibberish theory-theology ... unrelated to the real world of facts, technology and inventions, tall buildings and fast cars, airplanes and other Real and Good things in life; technology is not in any way related to the web of idiotic scientific theory. ALL inventors have been anti-science. The Wright brothers said: "Science theory held us up for years. When we threw out all science, started from experiment and experience, then we invented the airplane." By the way, airplanes all fly level on this Plane earth. Our Society of Zetetics have existed for at least 6,000 years, the extent of recorded history. Extensive writing from 1492 BC. We have been and are the Few, the Elite, the Elect, who use Logic Reason are Rational. Summed up, we are Sane and/ or have Common Sense as contrasted to the "herd" who is unthinking and uncaring. We have absorbed the Universal Zetetic Society of America and Great Britain, ZION U.S.A., the work of Alexander Dowie 1888, Wilber Glen Voliva 1942, Samuel Shenton, Lillian J. Shenton of England 1971. Zetetic: from Zeto, to seek and search out; Prove, as contrasted to theoretic which means to guess, to hope, to suppose, but NOT to 'prove'. Science 'proves' earth a 'ball' by 'scripture' words. We PROVE earth Flat by experiment, demonstrated and demonstrable. Earth Flat is a Fact, not a 'theory'! Our aim is not to 'disturb the herd' or wreck the Government, but rather to be an aid to the Elite Human Being in coming to KNOW earth flat ... to then FREE his or her mind from such blind unreasoning 'theory-superstition' and so go on "to carefully observe ... think freely ... rediscover forgotten facts and oppose theoretical dogmatic assumptions." As Sir Fields, owner of newspapers in England, has said about us, "They are the Last pocket of individual Thinkers in English speaking world." I sometimes call myself the Last Iconoclast. Science is a false religion, the opium of the masses. I myself count it as a beginning of Sanity to confess 'the creation proves there was a Creator' so a God or Creator ... Exists. From a life-time of study, of seeking out a proving things, from the study of 6,000 years of recorded history, from observation, from experience, from Common Sense Observation, have concluded the 10 Commandments are in fact good Laws of Living and Behavior for oneself and all in contact with you ... truly 'Laws of Physics for Living.' That is my opinion. The Fact the Earth is Flat is not my opinion, it is a Proved Fact. Also demonstrated Sun and Moon are about 3,000 miles away are both 32 miles across. The Planets are 'tiny.' Sun and Moon do Move, earth does NOT move, whirl, spin or gyrate. Australians do NOT hang by their feet under the world ... this is a FACT, not a theory! Also a Fact the Spinning, Whirling, Gyrating Ball World Planet, Globe Idea is Entirely 100% now and at all times in the Past, a RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE ... a Blind Dogmatic Article of Faith in the Religion for the Blind unreasoning beast of prey. No earthly reason for a Sane, Upright Member of the Elite Elect Humans to subscribe to it. Also a Fact, today the Elite of Earth ALL live on the Flat World. Only the illogical, unreasoning "herd" ... prefers the way-out occult weird theology of the old Greek superstition earth a spinning ball! Both Copernicus and Newton, the inventors of the "modern" superstitions (400 year OLD modern) have said: "It is not possible for a Sane reasonable person to ever really believe these Theories." Thus saith Newton- Copernicus. What saith THOU? Associate Membership contribution of $10.00 a year, includes four (4) issue of FLAT EARTH NEWS and Membership Card. An 8 x 12 Color Certificate of Membership is $5.00 extra. Sustaining Member $25.00 a year; Patron $100.00 and up. One year of the quarterly (4 issues) FLAT EARTH NEWS and Membership Card and Certificate. $5.00 single copy. Each issue contains further proofs of the fact - earth IS flat. People of goodwill who seek the truth also known as the Facts are Welcome! We do not want members who are stupid, mindless, brute beasts with two feet whose only aim is to scoff or in some way 'harm' our work -- Facts, Logic, Reason, Sanity also known as commonsense, is our aim. In 30 AD Jesus Christ said ... seek and find the Truth and it will set you free. Free from the Pathological Liars ... the great pretenders who mislead all flesh and blood. ------------------------------------------------------------- Age ____ RACE ______ Sex _____ Occupation ___________________ Are you a teacher of any kind in the education system? _____________________ Minister?_____________________ Priest? ______________________ Rabbi? ______________________ I hereby affirm my aim in joining is not to harm, degrade, damage or defame this Society signed ______________________ date ________________________ How did you hear of us? SPECIAL: FLAT EARTH MAP (as featured in Newsweek, 7/2/84) $6.00 postpaid; Membership, Certificate, and Map $20.00. | ||
| Valm |
Is this flat earth society real or a joke? I might sign my husband up just for fun. Val | ||
| George |
Max, Interesting post. Thanks for taking the time to write out what you thought. there is a lot I could write on, but the part that hit me the most is where you said, "One wonderful thing about Scripture is that it never attempts to prove that there is a God. It always ASSUMES that there is One." There has always been something nagging at me and I guess it is, how can I really take the whole salvation issue seriously when I am not sure I even believe in God to begin with. This then must be the TRUE test of faith, to believe in God when His very existence is only an assumption. Hmmmm....? Can one of you find the verse here Christ says something like, "believe in Him who sent Me." Thanks----George |
