| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
IS ELLEN G. WHITE IN VIOLATION OF COLOSSIANS 2:13-19? First Scripture: NIV Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. HE FORGAVE US ALL OUR SINS, 14 having CANCELED the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; HE TOOK IT AWAY, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a [WEEKLY] SABBATH day. 17 These are a SHADOW of the things that were to come; THE REALITY, however, IS found in CHRIST. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the WORSHIP OF ANGELS [EGW prophesied that Jesus Christ was MICHAEL THE ANGEL] disqualify you for the prize. SUCH A PERSON GOES INTO GREAT DETAIL ABOUT WHAT [S]HE HAS SEEN, AND HIS [HER] UNSPIRITUAL MIND PUFFS HIM [HER] UP WITH IDLE NOTIONS. 19 He [SHE] has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. Now Ellen G. White: ^^At the commencement of the Holy SABBATH, (Jan. 5,) we engaged in prayer with Bro. Belden's family at Rocky Hill, Ct., and the Holy Ghost fell upon us. I WAS TAKEN OFF IN VISION to the Most Holy Place, where I SAW Jesus still interceding for Israel. On the bottom of his garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Then I SAW that Jesus would not leave the Most Holy Place, until every case was decided either for salvation or destruction: and that the wrath of God could not come until Jesus had finished his work in the Most Holy Place--laid off his priestly attire and clothed himself with the garments of vengeance. Then JESUS WILL STEP OUT FROM BETWEEN THE FATHER AND MAN, and God will keep silent no longer; but pour out his wrath on those who have rejected his truth. I SAW that the anger of the nations, the wrath of God, and the time to judge the dead, were separate events, one following the other. I SAW THAT [THE ANGEL] MICHAEL [CHRIST, according to EGW] had not stood up, and that the time of trouble, such as never was, had not yet commenced. The nations are now getting angry, but when OUR HIGH PRIEST [MICHAEL THE ANGEL] HAS FINISHED HIS WORK IN THE SANCTUARY [THE WORK, YOU SEE, WAS NOT FINISHED ON THE CROSS WHEN CHRIST CRIED, IT IS FINISHED], HE WILL STAND UP, put on the garments of vengeance, and then the seven last plagues will be poured out. I SAW THAT THE FOUR ANGELS WOULD HOLD THE FOUR WINDS UNTIL JESUS WORK WAS DONE IN THE SANCTUARY, and then will come the seven last plagues. These plagues enraged the wicked against the righteous, and they thought that we had brought them down upon them, and if they could rid the earth of us, then the plagues would be stayed. A decree went forth to slay the saints [SDAs ONLY], which caused them to cry day and night for deliverance. This was the time of Jacob's trouble. Then all the saints [SDAs ONLY] cried out with anguish of spirit, and were delivered by the Voice of God. Then the 144,000 [SDAs ONLY] triumphed. Their faces were lighted up with the glory of God. Then I was shown a company [FORMER ADVENTISTS]who were howling in agony. On their garments was written in large characters, "thou art weighed in the balance, and found wanting." I asked who this company were. The angel said, "THESE ARE THEY WHO HAVE ONCE KEPT THE SABBATH AND HAVE GIVEN IT UP." I heard them cry with a loud voice--"we have believed in thy coming, and taught it with energy." And while they were speaking, their eyes would fall upon their garments and see the writing, and then they would wail aloud. I SAW THEY HAD had drunk of the deep waters, and fouled the residue with their feet--TRODDEN THE SABBATH underfoot, and that is why they were weighed in the balance and found wanting. Then my attending angel DIRECTED me to the City again, where I SAW four angels winging their way to the gate of the City, and were just presenting the golden card to the angel at the gate. Then I SAW another angel swiftly flying from the direction of the most excellent glory, and crying with a loud voice to the other angels, and waving something up and down in his hand. I asked my attending angel for an explanation of what I SAW. He told me that I could see no more then, but he would shortly SHOW ME [not Daniel] what those things that I then saw meant.^^ Ellen G. White, Dear Brethren and Sisters, PRESENT TRUTH, August 1, 1849, 14. Present truth? You decide, Max of the Cross | ||
| Valm |
Wow Max. I read the book of Collosians last night and there was a lot to think about. It is quite a contrast to the EGW quote and perhpas prophetic of her. The striking impression I got was HOW could this DECEPTION have taken hold? How did people buy into this? And what can we do to help people come out? The other thing that struck me (about her vision)is that the high priest ( in OT times) in his work was not making a decision as to whose sins were forgiven and whose were not, but EGW has placed Jesus in the Most Holies picking and choosing, based on a certain code of behavior. It is no wonder I could not fall asleep as a child. I hope my neices and nephews are not affected in this way. Collosians is a wonderful book. Thank you for the prompt to read it. Sometimes my head spins at all the catch up I wish to do. I never really really enjoyed the Bible until recently. Valerie | ||
| Jtree |
Valerie, When I was being introduced to Adventism from WITHIN, my wife, (fiance at the time) who being from Korea, asked me to take her to the mall. She tricked me, because in the mall was a Christian bookstore, she wanted to browse in that store. I wanted to stand outside this store, sort of down a ways. She asked me to come in with her, I did. I asked her what she was looking for there, and she told me her purpose was to buy me a Bible. I agreed! She bought me a Bible, and I said, I will read it, when I had a "chance" (I was not going to read it at all). That lasted for about 24 hours. The next day, I started to read this Bible, I have not stopped since. Seems I can't get enough of God's WORD. This was in 1984. Since then, I have a NON-STOP study of the Bible. A time, I was living for my SELF! I put down the CROSS I was to carry. When we stumble, we fall, when we fall, He picks us up, carry's us. I was living a life, who FEARED for Him, to pick me up the second time. Picking us up from our FILTH, is a WONDERFUL THING! Israel had the Law for 1500 years and failed to live by it. At the Council of Jerusalem, in Acts 15, Peter said "We and our fathers were not able to keep the law. Why do we want to put the Gentiles under it? If we could not keep it, they won't be able to keep it either." Christ took our place! There are three methods of TRYING to live the Christian life. Two won't work, LEGALISM (Perhaps I have TRIED here) LICENCE (Perhaps I have been here) LIBERTY The Christian life is not either Legalism or Licence. It is LIBERTY in Christ. We know the life of LEGALISM, which not only includes the Ten Commandments, but also a set of REGULATIONS that not only Adventist's, but also Bible believers follow today. Grace does not set us free to sin, but it sets us free from sin. Standing on the Rock! JOTR | ||
| Jtree |
If Col 2:16 refers to the weekly Sabbath, then Sabbatarians are 100% refuted. Herein lies the battle ground. Sabbath keepers have little more than a few lame arguments that are easily falsified. Only the blind and deceived could miss the simple truth in Col 2:16. he most stunning and irrefutable proofs that Col 2:16 must be the weekly Sabbath day, is the common "Year, Month, Week" pattern used in Col 2:16. When God wanted to refer to the whole system of Jewish holy days, rather than name them all, He would refer to the yearly, monthly and weekly as representing the whole system. Sabbatarians argue that the Sabbath Day of Col 2:16 is the yearly Sabbaths. But yearly Sabbaths were already referred to in Col 2:16 as "festivals". The "Year, Month, Week" pattern is so well established in the Old Testament, that Col 2:16 must refer to the weekly Sabbath. Even Gal 4:10, following this pattern, states the weekly Sabbath is abolished! 1 Chronicles 23:31 2 Chronicles 2:4 2 Chronicles 8:13 2 Chronicles 31:3 Nehemiah 10:33 Ezekiel 45:17 Hosea 2:11 All these OT, verses, refer to *YEARLY* (Festivals), *MONTHLY* (New Moon), and *WEEKLY* (Sabbaths). Sabbatarians are taught by their pastors, the false argument that the Plural "sabbaton" in Col 2:16 cannot refer to weekly Sabbath day. But as we can clearly see, there are at least 5 other places where the plural is used of the weekly Sabbath. The deception is even worse, given the fact that while most Seventh-day Adventist pastors know about these other passages, they do not tell their people in the pews! 1.Matthew 28:1, "Now after the Sabbath" [Greek- plural: sabbaton] 2.Luke 4:16, "He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath" [Greek- plural: sabbaton] 3.Acts 16:13, "And on the Sabbath day" [Greek- plural: sabbaton] 4.Exodus 20:8 (in Septuagint) "Remember the Sabbath day" [Greek- plural: sabbaton] 5.Leviticus 23:37-38 (in Septuagint) "besides those of the Sabbaths of the Lord" [Greek- plural: sabbaton] Some Sabbatarians will put forth another false argument saying, "The lack of the definite article before the word "Sabbath" in the Greek in Col 2:16 proves it cannot refer to the weekly Sabbath. Of course this argument is no more valid than the one above regarding the plural "sabbaton". The truth is, I find several places where the weekly Sabbath lacks the definite article. An example of a definite article is the word THE in the following sentence: "Only Jews kept THE weekly Sabbath." The same sentence that lacks the definite article would be: "Only Jews kept weekly Sabbath." Or "Only Jews kept a weekly Sabbath." 1.Matthew 28:1, "Now after the Sabbath" [Sabbath lacks article in original Greek] 2.John 5:9, "Now it was the Sabbath on that day" [Sabbath lacks article in original Greek] 3.John 5:10, "It is the Sabbath" [Sabbath lacks article in original Greek] 4.John 5:16, "on the Sabbath" [Sabbath lacks article in original Greek] A final false objection Sabbath keepers will sometimes raise against Col 2:14-16 referring to the weekly Sabbath, is the fact v14 calls that which was nailed to the cross "hostile to us". Sabbatarians continue to falsely argue: "The weekly Sabbath was not hostile to us!" However, 2 Cor 3:7 calls the entire ten commandment law, a "ministry of death". This effectively refutes their false argument! ministry of death 2 Cor 3:7 >But if the MINISTRY OF DEATH, IN LETTERS ENGRAVED ON STONES, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face. Sabbatarians have overlooked the fact that the 10 commandments were called a "ministry of death", What is the difference between "hostile to us" and "ministry of death"? "you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth" Jn 8:40 JOTR | ||
| Jtree |
Although the original 10 commandment law was written by the finger of God on stone, Moses recorded the 10 commandments twice with his own hand in Exodus and Deuteronomy. | ||
| Max |
Powerful points, JOTR. You remind me of Apollos: "When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia [northern Greece], the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ." Blessings, MOTC | ||
| Max |
Reference for above: NIV Acts 18:27-8. | ||
| Valm |
Jtree, Thank you for the wonderful Bible study. I have printed it out and hope to review it thouroughly before the circus sleeping upstairs descends upon me! I do have one question from Collossians which will seem like a devil's advocate question and is not intended as such. So here goes Bible scholars: In my Bible the "heading" for v 6-20 is entitled "Freedom from Human regulations through life with Christ." And some of those verses clearly do seem to be talking about human regulations. V 14 strikes me as refering to the Mosaic law, however, how can a reader be certain it is refering to the Mosaic law rather than mere human regulations? The answer to this question may give assurance to those that indeed there is further Biblical evidance that the Mosaic Law was done away with at the cross. On the other hand it may leave a window of doubt. For me these matters are of importance when I speak with my family. I have great faith in the Cross of Christ being my only salvation. But I must become scholarly on these matters if I am ever to keep up with my family in conversation. Valerie | ||
| Cindy |
Dear old Max...:-)) Good morning...;-)) I really don't know how old you are; like my "Uncle Milt", who is most likely younger than me! I'm just feeling old myself this week...these past two years have really aged me! But I praise God for the eternity I have already begun IN Christ. There is a sense of newness, (youthfulness? :-)) with JESUS every morning... Thanks for the juxtaposition of Colossians 2 with the so-called "present truth" of EGW. It is almost sickening to me to read her writings in view of the MARVELOUS words of Paul's in Colossians. I pray we will all rest, (and grow! :-)) more into the Reality of Christ's Finished Work For Us! As Paul writes in 2 Col. 2:2-4: "My purpose is that they may be ENCOURAGED IN HEART and UNITED IN LOVE, SO THAT THEY MAY HAVE THE FULL RICHES OF COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING, IN ORDER THAT THEY MAY KNOW THE MYSTERY OF GOD, NAMELY CHRIST, IN WHOM ARE HIDDEN ALL THE TREASURES OF WISDEOM AND KNOWLEDGE!! I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine sounding arguments..." Aren't those great words!? Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Joshua...wonderful comments...I especially liked your mentioning of the three methods of "trying" to live the Christian life. LEGALISM... LICENCE... or LIBERTY! As you say, two of them just don't work! As Paul says in 2 Corinthians 3, ONLY IN CHRIST is the "veil" of the Old Covenant--that veil which keep our minds dull--taken away!! "And where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is FREEDOM." (LIBERTY!) Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Shabbat Shalom, Valerie, Remember that it is the HEADING that says, "Human Regulations" over Colossians 2:14, not Scripture itself. The NIV text note to the phrase, "having canceled the written code, with its regulations," says that the "written code" is "a business term, meaning a certificate of indebtedness [an IOU] in the debtor's handwriting. Paul uses it as a designation for the Mosaic law [ALL of it], with ALL its regulations, under which everyone is a debtor to God." There is no suggestion in the text itself that these regulations are "human" in the sense that the doubters to whom you refer seem to understand it. I agree that you that that "Human Regulations" heading can be misleading. Good point. Sonrise upon you, MC | ||
| Cindy |
Valerie, I see you're up at at the computer, too! :-)) You asked in regards to Max's post, "The striking impression I got was HOW could this DECEPTION have taken hold? How did people buy into this? And what can we do to help people come out?" It seems to me that people around EGW must not have been grounded in the ALL-SUFFICIENCY OF CHRIST'S ABSOLUTELY FINISHED ATONEMENT FOR THEM! Somehow, they must have put more VALUE on the physical manifestations and claims of James and Ellen White than on the surety of Scripture alone, and especially, the FINALITY!! of JESUS' revelation--His life, substitutionary death on the Cross, and triumphant resurrection! Did they even READ Colosssians!!?? It does seem unbelivable now to me to think they gave her veto power over the plain teachings of SCRIPTURE! Were they just dazzled to think they had a real "prophet" in their midst? Something tangible they could SEE? The far SUPERIORITY of Christ must have been distant to them... Again, that "veil" over their eyes (by putting the focus on the Old Covenant) was definitely in place... And ONLY IN CHRIST can it be taken away. Only by preaching Christ crucified, the FULFILLMENT of all types and "shadows", can this veil be lifted! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
And Shabbat shalom to you, Cindy! I'm sure I'm older than you are. I like to think of aging in the Old Testament way. The modern, western cultural ideal has it all backwards. For our prejudiced way of thinking, when we are born we start with a cup FULL of water, representing time or "our years" or life. As we live the water drains slowly out till at death there is no life left. Baaaaad concept! Old Testament concept much better: We are born with an EMPTY cup. As we live water, representing time -- or "our years" or life -- FILLS our cup till at death we are full of life or years, not empty of it! Example: "After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. And so he died, old and FULL OF YEARS." NIV Job 42:16-17. Praising God for you, Cindy, and all your wonderful contributions, Max of the Cross | ||
| Cindy |
I've often thought how very wonderful it would be to be "eavesdropping" on that road to Emmaus, WITH JESUS!, when He explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning HIMSELF!! There are so MANY interesting insights into Christ in the passage from Luke 24: ************************************************** "Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. As they talked and discussed these things with each other, JESUS HIMSELF came up and walked along with them; BUT THEY WERE KEPT FROM RECOGNIZING HIM. He asked them, 'What are you discussing together as you walk along?' They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked Him, 'Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?' 'What things?' He asked. 'About Jesus of Nazareth,' they replied, 'He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucifed him; BUT WE HAD HOPED THAT HE WAS THE ONE WHO WAS GOING TO REDEEM ISRAEL. And what is more, IT IS THE THIRD DAY since all this took place. In addition, some of our women AMAZED us. They went to the tomb early this morning, but didn't find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was ALIVE. Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.' He said to them, 'HOW FOOLISH AND SLOW OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN! DID NOT THE CHRIST HAVE TO SUFFER THESE THINGS AND THEN ENTER HIS GLORY?' And, BEGINNING WITH MOSES AND ALL THE PROPHETS, HE EXPLAINED TO THEM WHAT WAS SAID IN ALL THE SCRIPTURES CONCERNING HIMSELF. As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus acted as if he were going farther. But they urged Him strongly, 'Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.' So He went in to stay with them. When He was at the table with them, HE TOOK THE BREAD, GAVE THANKS, BROKE IT AND BEGAN TO GIVE IT TO THEM. THEN THEIR EYES WERE OPENED AND THEY RECOGNIZED HIM, and He disappeared from their sight. They asked each other, 'WERE NOT OUR HEARTS BURNING WITHIN US WHILE HE TALKED WITH US ONN THE ROAD AND OPENED THE SCRIPTURES TO US?' They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. there they found the eleven and those with them, asembled together and saying, 'IT IS TRUE! THE LORD HAS RISEN AND HAS APPPEARED TO SIMON.' Then the two told what had happened on the way, AND HOW JESUS WAS RECOGNIZED BY THEM WHEN HE BROKE THE BREAD. While they were still talking about this, Jesus Himself stood among them and said to them, 'PEACE BE WITH YOU.'" ************************************************** The symbolism is so great between the breaking of the bread and giving it to them--as Christs' broken body on the Cross is given to us!! By beholding CHRIST CRUCIFIED FOR US!! our eyes can be opened, too; the veil is lifted! Then our hearts will also... "burn within us"! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
Cindy, That passage gives me goose bumps! Valerie |
