| Author | Message | ||
| Bruce H |
Timo Karppi What is the foolishness of the message and do you believe that foolish message. Bruce Heinrich | ||
| Bruce H |
Timo Karppi There is a good reason why a lot of us choose not to keep saturday. The Bible clearly states there are risks. In Galatians 3:10 it says cursed is everyone who does not continue in (ALL) things which are written in the Book of the Law (Book of law = 613 commandments in book's of Genesis to Deuteronomy) and IN Gal 5:3 says And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised (or keep's the sabbath) that he is a debtor to keep the whole Law (Book of law = 613 commandments. The book's of Genesis to Deuteronomy or Torah). In the Book of Romans it states it like this, Rom 5:5 For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our member to bear fruit to death. So how many people in any church are in the flesh? The law brings forth pride, it did it with the Jewish pharisees and I see it with Adventist of today. Jesus stated in Matt 16:6, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and Paul stated in 1 Cor 5:6 Your glorying is not Good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. What sabbath keeping church do you know that does not have pride that does not glorying in itself. The Adventist church has a lot of pride and they condemn the rest of the christian community when they themselves suffer from the same problems as the rest of the world. The Adventist Loma Linda University is 47 million dollars in debt, the last couple of Adventist presidents have been asked to leave do to shady buisness deals, the Adventist divorce rate is the same a the general public. etc. etc. I saw what the Law did to the Adventist people and I saw what it did to me and my family, I read what it did to the Jews and what they did to my savior. I now walk by faith which very few Adventist or Jew do. I have been to a lot of Sabbath keeping churches who know how to keep the Sabbath but do not understand the Sabbath Rest and do not enter in. In the 39 years of being a Adventist I did not know what the Gospel was, did not know what it means to be born again, did not walk by faith and believe that I was saved by the foolishness of the Cross. I blame this on the fruit's of Sabbatarianism. Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day above another (Which is what you do Timo); another esteems every day alike (which is what I Bruce do), Let each be fully convinced in his own mind (which I am sure you are as well as me). He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord (Which is what I believe you Timo are doing); and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. So I do not Observe the Sabbath to the Lord. For I know trust in His Gift and I want my CHILDREN to also. B | ||
| Timo Karppi |
Thank you Bruce for your explanation, why you don't observe the Sabbath. I think that I can understand you. Jeesus didn't like the way Pharisees kept the Sabbath either. Sabbath is not ment to be kept legalistically. There is nothing in the Sabbath that adds to the Salvation, or anything that is meritious in it self. Salvation is not depended on which day we keep or if we keep any day. On the other hand many "things" in the Bible point to our real and only Savior, Jeesus. Jeesus is our Righteousness, but the correct understanding of Justification by Faith does not save us, still only Jeesus saves. The correct understanding of babtism does not save us either. Salvation is Jeesus + nothing. In my opinion satan not only hates Jeesus, but everything and everyone that somehow points to Jeesus. That's the reason he (satan) hates us christians and tries to make us as legalistic as possible, or as antinomious us possible, so many would be turned away from Jeesus. That's the reason that SDA-church has often presented Sabbath as a horrible day, not remembering our Lord and Saviour but remembering what not to do. | ||
| Bruce H |
Timo Karppi You said that beautifully. But my Heart goes out to these Adventist, they have no Idea what they are missing. JESUS is awsome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Susan |
Timo, It sounds like you have a good grasp of the true gospel message. Colleen and Bruce have been beautifully discussing this topic with you. I hope it's o.k. for me to jump in and give some more input. When I left adventism I had no problem worshiping on Sun. I can't say that it was easy to give up sda thinking. But I've studied the bible and over the course of several years, I've come to the conclusion that most of adventist doctrine is unbiblical. Yes, they use scripture to back much of it up, but it's not done in a correct and scholarly manner. When I first experienced freedom from adventism It was so amazing. I learned that EGW was a false prophet and this was all it took. I figured that if she was false (even about 1 thing, Deut.18:21,22 gives a test for prophets), then how could I trust any of her teachings? I realized that I had been lied to about so many things. This was hurtful, but it lead me to search out the real truth. I feel so strongly that once the veil of sda deceit was lifted from my eyes,I was able to see/hear the leading of the Holy Spirit. So you see, the Sabbath issue was just one of many for me to examine closely. Christianity really isn't about a day,lifestyle or set of doctrines. It's a relationship with the living God through Jesus. By prayer and study of the word this relationsip will grow and mature. At times I get frustrated trying to discuss these things with adventists. I wonder if they are reading the same bible??? But until they're ready to yield to the Holy Spirit's calling, then it's kind-of useless. Not that we shouldn't love and witness to them, but sometimes it's more productive to reach out to those who've left adventism altogether. These are truly the hurt and confused and they are probably more likely to be open to the truth, since they aren't consumed by an sda life. "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us." 1John 4:10-12 it's not us that will convict and save lives. | ||
| Timo Karppi |
Susan, I agree with most of what you wrote, but a few points I disagree. In my opinion not " most of adventist doctrine is unbiblical", so here I disagree with you. In many cases the problem is not a false doctrine, but a false presentation of a right doctrine. Any doctrine, that is not presented Christ-centered is a "false" doctrine. Hell that ends is a Christ-centered doctrine, since there is no life without Christ. Everlasting hell-doctrine makes God a tyrant. Ellen White, in my opinion, was not a false prophet, but an imperfect person like we all. Deut.18:21-22, does not necessary talk about a false prophet, but about failure of prophesy. That is why the New Testament asks us to test every prophesy and keep what is right. EGW-problem is more a SDA-problem, than a EGW-problem. We have lifted a human being high on a pedestal, and "canonised" her writings. That is the real mistake. One example: Dan.8:13,14 does talk mainly about how the "little horn" was judged and not about the "investigative judgement of God's children", but since EGW taught the latter, many still accept that as the truth. Dr Ford's Biblical position is gaining ground, though. The only way for SDA-church to survive, in the Gospel, is to clearly make the Bible as the test of truth and not EGW's writings. One thing is certain, that every person that is once in Heaven have been more or less legalistic. In this imperfect world no one is totally free of legalism in practical life. Even though our theology might not be legalistic, our human nature is. | ||
| Bruce H |
Timo Karppi ---"Hell that ends is a Christ-centered doctrine, since there is no life without Christ. Everlasting hell-doctrine makes God a tyrant."----- Can you support this with scripture or is this your Idea and your concept. Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. It sound's to me that you are finding it in yourself to judge God. If he does not fit your idea of what you think God should be. BH |
