| Author | Message | ||
| Lynn W |
EGW: "Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them (Christians) look up to the throne, and pray, 'Father, give us Thy Spirit.' Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence ..." (Early Writings, p. 56). BIBLE: "If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" Matthew 7:11 BIBLE: "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven" Matthew 18:19 My ex-SDA friend told me that she was taught that Satan & Christ were both co-equal covering Cherubs over the throne of God before Satan fell. She was also taught that "no remission without shedding of blood" was Satan's rule, so God had to abide by it. I know these are weird ideas, but she got these and many others from her Adventist leaders. She didn't tell me these things to make fun of Adventists, but to ask me if the Bible teaches these. Don't forget the Adventists teach that Satan will bear our sins for us, which is totally blasphemous. If anyone wants references, I will print them. | ||
| Timo K. |
Lynn, what your ex-SDA friend has been taught is not what I have been taught. Even the conservative adventist in Finland, to my knowledge, do not teach that Satan and Jeesus where Cherubs (angels), and thus both created. This sounds like last century teachings. Many strange teachings was presented during "shut door" period (1844-1851) and after it too. Shut door teachings are the root of "Investigatine Judgement" teaching that, in the long run, has to go and be replaced with Judgement by the Gospel. Ellen White's writings has to be judged by the Bible and the Gospel. She also copied from other writers more than the leadership, in my opinion, admits. We shold try, however, to be accurate in the critisism about SDA church, if we want to help the church. I have also been taught that Jeesus bear our sins. Azazel (gout given to Azazel) in the Day of Atonment was left to die in the wilderness, which means that Satan is punished to death for all he has done wrong, and also what he has made us do wrong (according to the teaching I received).If adventist would make "doctrine" of everything EGW wrote adv. would f.ex not be able to bike. | ||
| Lynn W |
"If adventist would make "doctrine" of everything EGW wrote adv. would f.ex not be able to bike." Unfortunately, some do. In another post you said it was not Ellen White's fault the church exalts her writing too high. But I don't see how anyone can exalt her writing higher than she did herself. "The Holy Ghost is the Author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy" (Selected Messages, Vol. 3, p. 30) "I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision - the precious rays of light shining from the throne" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, pp. 63-67). "These books, giving the instruction that the Lord has given me during the last sixty years, contain light from heaven, and will bear the test of investigation." (Selected Messages, vol. 1, p. 35, 1906) Testimonies, vol. 5, pg. 672-683. ìIf you lose confidence in the Testimonies you will drift away from Bible truth... But those who seek to make my labor doubly hard by their misrepresentations, jealous suspicions, and unbelief, thus creating prejudice in the minds of others against the Testimonies God has given me, and limiting my work, have the matter to settle with God, while I shall go forward as Providence and my brethren may open the way before me." "I speak the words given me by a power higher than human power, and I can not, if I would, recall one sentence. In the night season the Lord gives me instruction in symbols, and then explains their meaning." The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, ch. 68, pg. 578-579. Testimonies for the Church Volume Five, pg 687,688. "Now if those to whom these solemn warnings are addressed say, "It is only Sister White's individual opinion, I shall still follow my own judgment," and if they continue to do the very things they were warned not to do, they show that they despise the counsel of God, and the result is just what the Spirit of God has shown me it would be--injury to the cause of God and ruin to themselves." "We must follow the directions given through the Spirit of Prophecy ... God has spoken to us through His Word. He has spoken to us through the Testimonies to the church and through the books that have helped to make plain our present duty and the position that we should now occupy." (Testimonies, Vol. 8, p. 298) "In ancient times God spoke through the mouths of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies of his Spirit" (Testimonies, Vol. 4, p. 148; Vol. 5., p. 661) [Here it's obvious she's talking about her own writings for the Bible was obviously not written in her day (1800s)] "God has outlined His plan in His Word, and in the Testimonies He has sent to His people." (Battle Creek Letters, p. 74) "The testimonies are unread and unappreciated. God has spoken to you. Light has been shining from His word and from the testimonies, and both have been slighted and disregarded. (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 217) "If you lessen the confidence of God's people in the testimonies he has sent them, you are rebelling against God as certainly as were Korah, Dathan and Abiram" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 66). "Early in my youth I was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the Lord's messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title...my work includes much more than the word 'prophet' signifies." (Review and Herald, July 26, 1907) "My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there." (Selected Messages, vol. 1, p. 36, 1906) Testimonies for the Church Volume Five, page 671, paragraph 2 Chapter Title: The Nature and Influence of the Testimonies "God is either teaching His church, reproving their wrongs and strengthening their faith, or He is not. This work is of God, or it is not. God does nothing in partnership with Satan. My work . . . bears the stamp of God or the stamp of the enemy. There is no halfway work in the matter. The Testimonies are of the Spirit of God, or of the devil." "One thing is certain: Those Seventh-day Adventists who take their stand under Satan's banner will first give up their faith in the warnings and reproofs contained in the Testimonies of God's Spirit."--3SM 84 (1903). "The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Prov. 29:18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony."--1SM 48. 3SM84 "...all who believe that the Lord has spoken through Sister White, and has given her a message, will be safe from the many delusions that will come in these last days." [Good case for job security, right?] | ||
| Timo K |
I have also been very frustrated with EGW and at the same time one-sided. That might be one reason I have't hardly read her writings for years. The type of statements you, Lynn, used are similar I have used and even worse. At the same time I ignored her wonderful Christ-centered statements. At the moment I am recovering from my EGW-crisis and finding a "new" EGW. She is far from perfect and her writings are often confusing and legalistic in tone and not good to read with the attitude I had before. Now I am not interesting in a perfect "prophet", but I struggeling christian woman who, inspite of her shortcomings, took the Lord seriously and was eager to share to others what she had in the Lord. To find a more balanced understanding of Mrs. White, I must thank following persons: Dr Ingemar Linden, Dr.Ronald Numbers, Walter Rea, Bob Brinsmead, Dr Desmond Ford. I cannot deny the findings in f.ex "Prophtess of Health" and "White Lie" so I accept her plaguing from other writers, and even trying to hide it. Still she did good things too, which in my opinion should not be forgotten. David did some bad things also, but he did good things also. | ||
| Lynn W |
As far as I know, David did not spend a life-time lying, meddling, and rebuking others for their sins. When he sinned, he confessed and repented, as we should all do. He did not speak lies while giving credit to God. I'm sure Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddie, and Ronald Hubbard had a lot of good things to say, too. But why would I want to read their writings, knowing I have to constantly filter out the lies? I found I could agree with Ellen White about 10 or 15% of the time. That's about how often she agrees with scripture. I prefer to find a writer with higher odds, say around 90-95%. It's really not that hard if the writer is Christ focused instead of self-focused. | ||
| Thomas |
Lynn and Timo, I firmly believe that anyone who claims that they are "shown" what they write and that their mission is greater than that of a prophet should be right 100% of the time. She set the standard repeatedly by which she MUST be judged. If found to have been less than truthful, even 10 percent of the time or even 1 per cent of the time, she has corrunpted her entire testimony. You can not pick and choose what parts are truthful and what parts are not truthful. Everything which is "shown by Heaven's messenger" must be true or it is all false. In my reading from works of Calvin, Luther, Wesley, or virtually any other of the pillars of the Christian church, I do not find where any of them ever made the claims for their theology or their writings that she has made. The Adventist church may be getting more "Christ centered" but until they admit what they have deliberatly hidden from the world, their actions MUST be considered suspect. Recently the World Wide Church of God went through just this type of confession and conversion. Should the Adventists be held to less a standard? If you know the truth and refuse to tell it, then you too are part of the falsehood. The same standard that is held in the courts of our land should be a MINIMUM standard by which we as Christians hold ourselves. Wouldn't you agree? | ||
| Lynn W |
Amen to that. When I said I prefer writers I can agree with at least 90% of the time, I certainly wasn't refering to any self-proclaimed "messenger of God." Commentators such as Luther & Calvin did not claim that their writings came in vision straight from God or His angel as Ellen White did. They are just fallible humans giving their best understanding of scripture. Ellen White did not give the option of filtering her writings and keeping only the "good." "My work . . . bears the stamp of God or the stamp of the enemy. There is no halfway work in the matter." If she claimed to be giving her own opinion, I wouldn't waste my time refuting someone so obviously ignorant of scripture, but according to her, she was speaking the Word of God. "Now if those to whom these solemn warnings are addressed say, "It is only Sister White's individual opinion, I shall still follow my own judgment," and if they continue to do the very things they were warned not to do, they show that they despise the counsel of God, and the result is just what the Spirit of God has shown me it would be--injury to the cause of God and ruin to themselves." Testimonies for the Church Volume Five, pg. 687-688. |
