| Author | Message | ||
| Bruce H |
Timo Karppi Ever heard of Gram Maxwell. | ||
| Colleentinker |
I've come to believe that I have to take seriously the New Testament teachings about eternal punishment. Jesus used the same word for "eternal" to refer to both hell and eternal life. I don't pretend to really understand what those are. God has not made them clear, and that's for a reason, I believe. (By the same token, I don't believe we can be adamant that we know hell and eternal life to be what our traditional SDA doctrines taught us they were.) I've come to believe that it's possible that our spirits, the part of us that knows God, never leaves him after we accept him, even when we die. I think its possible that God holds our spirits in His love, and even after we die our spirits are alive in his love until the resurrection. I don't believe that they live in any sense that we understand life, and certainly they'd have no connection with earth. But I believe that if death is separation from God, life must be eternal connection to God. Similarly, I'm beginning to wonder if eternal death might not be a spiritual reality. I always thought of hell as a literal fire, but that never made sense, especially since Revelation says that all former things are passed away. Perhaps eternal death is a spirit or soul, no longer connected to a body, that exists somewhere in a spiritual dimension, cut off from God. The Bible refers to the saved as the Living, and it refers to the lost as the dead. Perhaps spiritual death is not the same thing as physical death. If the lost are dead and separated from God, perhaps the spirits experience some eternal separation from physical life and from Love and God in a spiritual dimension that never intersects in any way with physical or spiritual life, including heaven and the New Earth. It seems possible that eternal death would be equal in intensity to the life it rejected. Again, I do not pretend to have this figured out. I only know that the Bible says a lot about eternal punishment, and punishment is not synonymous with annihilation. I'm still studying! | ||
| Timo Karppi |
Bruce asked for Biblical proof that hell is not eternal. Whith the "good old" proof text method the Bible can teach us anything. That's why my understanding of Bible teaching tries to avoid drawing too sure conclusions about single text. "the letter makes you dead, but the Spirit make you alive". Many so called "eternal" things was fulfilled at the Cross. At the same way many eternal practises will sease when Christ returns again. The serpent already told Eva at the Garden that you will not die, even if you eat from the tree of good and evil. Life was only promised by eating the fruits of the Tree of Life (Christ). When Jeesus died on the Cross, He suffered eternal punishment for our sake. In other words Jeesus experiensed eternal hell. In this sense eternal can mean total (until end). Also every doctrine in the Bible is a "dead" doctrine if it is not connected to Jesus. First Advent is the basis and the Second Advent is the fruit of eternity. I cannot see any eternity outside of Christ. | ||
| Timo K. |
Bruce, I forgot to answer your question about Gram Maxwell. No, I don't know him or his teachings, but have heard about him, being a liberal-oriented person who is connected to Loma Linda University. But would like to know more about him. | ||
| Bruce H |
Timo K. Timo I really struggled with the concept of Hell, But if you read the Bible you will find out that Jesus mentioned Hell more than Heaven. I struggled with this but I decided that I would not make an Idol of this, and decided not to create a God in the Image that I wanted. I decided To accept God no matter which way it goes, eternal punishment or annaihation. I accept him either way by falling back on His loving Gift Jesus, I trust in Jesus that he does the right thing. If you on the other hand state, (Hell that ends is a Christ-centered doctrine, since there is no life without Christ. Everlasting hell-doctrine makes GOD a TYRANT.) Then you judge God to be a tyrant if you are wrong. I would think that there is no man who could judge God. Let me give you something to chew on. Do you have a computer? as well as a floppy disk. Now if you weigh the disk with nothing on it, it weighs 7.5 grams. Now if you down load 250 Dollars worth of softwear, it still weighs 7.5 grams, but know when you put the disk into the computer it comes to life. Now if you know anything about physics you know that what has no mass is not subject to time. Which means you can destroy the disk but the program still exists, forever, even though you cannot see it or weigh it. Now what If we are softwear and not hardwear, without mass and thus not subject to times and space. BH | ||
| Bruce H |
What if Life is. Love, family, meaning, Truth, Light, fellowship, true knowledge, trust, no fear, praise, faith. etc. tec. And no Life is. fear, anger, darkness, lies, distrust, selfishness, cursing and gnashing of teeth. etc.etc. Would this be life or absence of life. BH | ||
| Bruce H |
Timo K I like what you said here "why my understanding of Bible teaching tries to avoid drawing too sure conclusions about single text. "the letter makes you dead, but the Spirit make you alive". Very few Adventist here in Loma Linda know if they are saved. They do not walk by faith, they doubt the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ and they trust in themselves. They do not appear to be Born Again and I rarly see the fruits of the Spirit. They are very judgemental and proud. Is it the same way where you are or is it different? BH |
