| Author | Message | ||
| Valm |
Good Morning All, I am waking up in a much better spirit than yesterday and I wish to share what was happening to me and ask anyof those who might have been hurt with it for forgiveness. I have to start with the simple statement that when I left Adventism my view of God was not so good. And I felt that if he were the God that was demonstrated to me as a child, I could never love him. Hey, I lived by all of the rules real well; one can do that with self discipline. But to have true love in my heart? It has only been recently that I have truly felt Love for God and only in the last few months that I could pick up my Bible with a sense of enthusiasm and not anxiety and despair!! I hope you all understand what this has meant to me to be able to read the Bible with joy. This whole message of preelection had really, really thrown me into a tailspin. You see I am not a scholar of the Bible and in my own psychological weakness I felt that I needed to listen to what more scholarly people had to say, and was even for a night and morning convinced of this horrific doctrine. In that brief time my whole base of security in God was shattered. I felt like I would if I had just found out that my faithful husband had been unfaithful to me and his children. I was truly ready to give up the Christian Doctrine due to this and seek truth elsewhere!!!! A series of event over the day including some much need uplifting from my SISTERS in Christ; All due to the Holy Spirit showed me that God is faithful to all and that his character is and always will be just and full of mercy for all. At the point of my spiritual nadir I had become very sarcastic and for that I apologize particularly to Cindy. Cindy, I hope you know that I am praying for you and your husband and did not mean that he would burn. I said those things within the horrific context of a predestination philosophy. I am learning not to be angry about this. I am sincerely praying for both GA and Bill. These are two intelligent and remarkable men and I can only imagine how much more powerful they would be for God if they could see the errors of this doctrine. If I speak passionately against this doctrine it is because I am passionate. I believe that the repuatiation of our God is being defamed in this doctrine. I believe that this doctrine promotes insecurity among people as well as bigotry and hate towards others. No I do not think that either GA or Bill are bigots are haters. But I see this doctrine as a key component in hate groups throughout. Look at any religious/millitant group in the world today and you can rest assured that they believe they are God's choosen people. God back to Civil War times and you will see that this philosphy had a grave impact on the Southerners view of who black people were. (This is not to say that Calvinism or predestination or preelection wasn't doing its own damage in the North) Might I remind you all that in our own SDA history what the attitude of the 1844 pioneers was towards their community once they believed the "door was shut". While they did not believe they were preelected they certainly believed they were God's elect at that time. So once again, I sincerely apologize and ask forgiveness for my sarcasm of yesterday morning. Please understand the psychological distress I was feeling at the time. And please note that I have a reknewed passion not against people but against everything this doctrine represents. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Dear Cindy, I woke up this morning finding it necessary to ask your forgiveness if I offended you yesterday. Please take what I said in the context of my overwhelming frustration with the preelection philosophy and a great deal of disillusionment as to who God really is. I was and still will be praying for you and your husband. Please read my post above. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Dear Lori, Thank you for the verses of scripture as the relate to the three elections in the Bible. They will be read and contemplated throughout the day. I feel in love with the chapter of Isaiah yesterday!!! We are so fortunate that God choose Jesus and Jesus willfully choose to live amongst us and die for the atonement of our sins!!! Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Hi Colleen, I am interested in your statement:In the meantime, we have to live with the tension of both things being true. Do you then think that pre election or destination is true? Couldn't there be a possibility that these texts mean something entirely different and that this different perspective of what they could mean has not come to our attention? Yesterday when out to get a package of 7th grade essays to evaluate and then off to Starbucks I impulsively pulled into the Christian Bookstore and asked for a book on the doctrine of election. Well I found a good one that claims that the doctrine of predestination or preelection is "without foundation in the scriptures" It is called ELECT IN THE SON and written by Robert Shank. I have read the first 50 pages as yesterday I pretty much did nothing but read this book and scriptures. This book is helping me to lay to rest this doctrine. For me I CAN NOT live with this tension. I find the concept that God would pre elect so contrary to what I view as who he is that it completely wigs me out. God certainly is sovereign but that does not mean that his servants would be able to love him if those were the circumstances. For myself I know that in Jeremiah and then again in Hebrews we are promised that God will write his laws in our heart. He promises that we will KNOW him. This promise has nothing to do with our scholarly or unscholarly knowledge of the scriptures but surpasses that. So for me I had to sit down and remember that God put this in me. And I had to ask myself, is this what God is really like (this was a talk with my heart as God put it all there) And for me the answer was a resounding NO! Speaking of the heart, there has been some interesting work over the years beginning with the knowledge that our heart has tissue within it that is very much like our brain tissue. They have found that this area communicates directly with the brain. It is no wonder our prophets spoke of these things being in our heart rather than our brain. More on that some other time. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Hi Lori, Have been reading the scriptures you gave today and a couple of things struck me. The first is my need to reclaim these scriptures with the words choosen, destined, ordained ect as my own in the rightful context. (I remember a title of a book once that began Rescuing the Bible.... Well I need to rescue the Bible from the doctrine of pre election!!) The second thing that caught my attention was on Colossians 3: 12 and 14 was how the chapter begins. Since then you have been raised with Christ..... It seems to me that we become God's choosen people by being raised with Christ. Not before but when we accepted his attonement for our sins. Once again I will claim and shout it to the hilltops, I am God's choosen in Christ Jesus..... Valerie | ||
| Chuckiej |
Valm I came to this discussion very late, but I am glad that you have reclaimed your joy. I was frightened and saddened when you said you almost gave up on the Lord, but I was that much happier to read your latest post! | ||
| Valm |
Hi there Chuckiej, I hope I did not say almost gave up on the Lord, I almost gave up on Christianity. I will always believe that God is ALL LOVING. But if the Christian Scriptures clearly define Who GOD is through this predestination doctrine, than I would have to reject the Bible and search for truth elsewhere. Does that make sense to you? I know in my heart WHO GOD is and I have come to love him even more in reading the Bible and strengthening my belief in Christ and it was a horrific realization over the last couple of days that this doctrine could be in the BIBLE. This has been an EXTREMELY distressing experience for me. A real spiritual crisis that with God's help I overcame. God brought three wonderful people in my life yesterday that truly were ministers to my needs. If you have the time read through all of the posts over that last 6 days and you will get a picture of what my feelings were as well as why I am so passionate about standing up to this FALSE DOCTRINE. Hey ChuckieJ (I just love your name). I have a great Bible text that I found today. It speaks of our with the distinction of a group of people and then expands to include the WHOLE WORLD!!!!He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. John 2:2 NIV This text certainly does not smack of a God who has preelected to me, what do you think? Welcome to our site ChuckieJ. Glad to meet you and glad that you spoke to me. Valerie | ||
| Graceambassador |
Hi Colleen: (Bill Twisse, and Lori) Great to hear from you! You are right whereas you analyse the English translation and language. "Has given" is in fact continual AND PRESENT TENSE, as I believe you defend. I will not go into the Greek, but what Jesus said means an "eternal has given" or a fact that has been finished in eternities past with ETERNAL CONSEQUENCES! By the writings of Paul, which are inspired, at least I have a clue of when GOD DECIDED TO GIVE THE CHURCH TO CHRIST! It is continual in the sense that He has sheep today that are not of His pasture yet! Hence the answer to the childish question I keep getting: "What is the purpose of preaching if one believes predestination?" God predestined Salvation, the means of Salvation and how SOME OF THE ELECT would hear the message! I intended to come back to this issue, but I think it is pointless... We will exhume another cadaver of "churchianity" which is (or are): what translation to use, what Greek original is the authentic one etc.. I ALWAYS INTEPRET BY CONTEXT FIRST, then I go to the original then I trust a God who preserved His WORD AND MAKES PERFECT LOGICAL SENSE WHEN HE SPEAKS WITHOUT SPEAKING ONE THING IN THIS BOOK AND ANOTHER IN ANOTHER BOOK! Now, is it not the same thing I've been saying? That Jesus has more sheep that are not yet of His pasture, but His sheep WILL, absolutely and indisputably hear his voice. GOD KEEPS ON GIVING sheep, or people to Jesus. He planned to do so and the "GIVER" here is more important of what and when it has been given! Even if God today scratches his eternal head and says, well, let me give Milton's dog to Jesus (that's me, I mean, Milton not the dog) HE IS STILL THE GIVER! THE EMPHASIS, in the entire NEW TESTAMENT, and the OLD TESTAMENT PASSAGES that deal with "ETERNAL SALVATION" and not A TEMPORAL DELIVERANCE OR RELEASE FROM A TRAGEDY, IS GOD! THE: INITIATOR IS GOD THE EFFECTING IS OF GOD THE FINISHER IS GOD There is no interference of men whatsoever! Once I establish that, then I go to the original. On the "has crossed over" there is the interpretation given by most Arminian denominations that claim that this is something that happens when a man accetps Christ. But, thank God, Colleen, this is not a discourse from Jesus detached from OTHERS SCRIPTURES. SCRIPTURES INTERPRET SCRIPTURES AND THE DIVISION OF CHAPTERS AND VERSES IS "NOT INSPIRED". So... In context with other verses and scriptures that speak about "regenaration" (assuming that you agree that this is what "crossing over from death unto life means), and not "conversion" we see from John chapter 1 that it happened previous to ANYTHING THAT WAS UNDER OUR CONTROL. NOT EVEN CALVIN COULD COME UP WITH THIS ONE (chuckles...) JOHN 1 puts it in a way that does not require interpretation: NOT ACCORDING: to FLESH AND BLOOD to the WILL OF MAN I repeat what I said before and then I will go quiet into the night: I believe GOD could have picked any other ANALOGY to symbolize our "regeneration". He, nonetheless, picked BIRTH. None of us, unless another teacher, one of OB.GYN, tells me different, COULD CONTROL OUR NATURAL BIRTH. Certainly, the Holy Spirit, using the process of ILLUMINATION, chose a language that we can understand as humans. We all know that we cannot control how we are born, where, from what ethinicity. BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE "NEW BIRTH", it is taught today that YES, YOU CAN CONTROL IT!Even when Jesus told Nick in John 3 that this was a Spiritual Birth. I submit that if we can't control our OWN NATURAL BIRTH, and, unless someone tells me otherwise, there is something that happened before I was born that was out of my control, how come we can TAKE EVERY OTHER SCRIPTURE and SEPARATE IT FROM THE REST OF THE NT, and now way WE CAN CONTROL OUR NEW BIRTH BY OUR FREE WILL. Plus the word "again" in the "born again" text, means FROM ABOVE! We're born from above. No human control! Thank you for at least admitting that the Bible talks about Predestination without going in awe and thinking that I am some kind of "JIM JONES" and praying for my "followers". At least that one drew a good laugh from me! Where we differ is that as far as Biblical contexts are concerned, WE CANNOT ACCEPT JESUS (excuse me the religious slang...) until we are revived by the Holy Spirit, (see Eph 2:1-2. The reviving of the Holy Spirit, as evidenced in the Bible is efficacious and it works Salvation. Thus, even if we want to believe the term "ACCEPTING CHRIST", we must logically include the possibility of "DENYING CHRIST" because we know that there are people in hell today although some current and former SDA's believe in "punishment" but not "punishing". This makes the effectiveness of the work of the Holy Spirit, as PROMISED BY CHRIST IN HIS COVENANT, null and void. If they are in hell is not because they denyed the Holy Spirit. I submit that they were denyed according to Matthew 7:23, the famous "I NEVER KNEW YOU". (Please, I hope you do not believe that Jesus was being "poetical" here and deceiving us with expressions that he did not mean). These crowd was very religious. So, nobody should fear about the non-religious... I know that some preach, like my brethren the Free Will Baptists, and my former denomination the Assemblies of God, teach something else quoting scriptures where it says that we can: - deny the Holy Spirit - offend the Holy Sprit - quench (spell?), well extinguish the Holy Spirit But all the scriptures above deal with the two types of ALREADY ELECT PEOPLE (Paul's language) THE JEWS THE CHURCH It does not refer to the sinner uncoverted and unrepentant because these cannot have the HOLY SPIRIT TO DENY, OFFEND, QUENCH, ETC.. I believe that your statement that we have to live with the tensions of both being truth and the position apparently taken by Lori is okay as to the teaching of mainstream seminaries. That is why I give Lori a lot of credence as a Bible student. Yours and hers position is taught in seminaries today such as: Baptitsts, Pentecostals, Wesleyans, and a few other mainstream denominations. The reformeist seminaries are different and more like me. But I disagree with them as well when it comes to the laws such as infant baptism, and the so called Christian Sabbath, or Sunday. In my town, a Reformed town, MacDonald's had to sue the city to open Sundays just because the Reformed and Christian Reformed Churches would not allow them legally to open on Sundays. (I don't know what they ate on Sundays!). I will repeat to the entire forum: TO THE CALVINIST I AM TOO CHARISMATIC. TO THE CHARISMATIC I AM TOO CALVINIST! Thank you Colleen for coming into the discussion. By the way, I often use the Cambridge 1769 KJV. I love all the other translations. There are in them, however insertions of interpretations that are vey much arguable because the theologians that helped in their translation had the same POLITICAL bias that many liberals have today. The KJV had other biases that were more social than theological. This makes that KJV a better source for theological conclusions, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION! The NIV and the NASV are mostly used by the Catholics, specially the Liberation Theology Catholics, who BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS NO MORE THAN KARL MARX'S MESSENGER BOY. That is because the social bias of the translators is in the opposite end of whatever the English Royalty might have had. I use them as well, but we the right to refer to the original and do the same with the KJV. IN DESPITE OF THE ABOVE, I KNOW THAT GOD HAS PRESERVE HIS INERRANT WORD! BUT EVEN THE LETTER OF THE WORD IS SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED BILL TWISSE: GA: What do you think of Colleen's argument about the Greek tenses? I don't have my Greek NT right now to check it--but if there are perfect tenses in this passage (and I believe that there are); the present and continuing action or reality is guaranteed: the once-for-all action that God has performed in the past cannot be negated by the continuous and ongoing results of that action in the present and future. In any case, eternal realities are not subject to change in the present (though they continue to unfold)--even if the tense is imperfect. I totally agree and there are such renderings in the latest copies of the Manuscripts. I am checking the earliest ones. However, for me is what is in CONTEXT of THE TEXT and its TOTAL WEIGHT WHEN MEASURED UP WITH THE REST OF THE REVELATION, that determines how a text should be interpreted, ESPECIALLY if the original BRINGS VERBS, AND DECLINATIONS, as the "aorist tense" THAT WE DO NOT HAVE IN OUR LANGUAGE. SCRIPTURE INTERPRETS SCRIPTURE I believe you hold this position as well. You and I have discussed these matters in this forum enough for people to burn us at the stake! But it keeps coming back! Specially in this erroneous view of "belief" and "believing" and where it comes from and how it gets to the ELECT so he can believe. Personally, I leave my own work in my site to come here and UNWILLINGLY shock some people. It seems to some that I took this teaching out of my hat and there is NO HISTORY in the Church for 2000 years that someone has possibly taught that!! This baffles me because we are actually, (in a very innapropriate analogy) trying to sell hair tonic for someone on their way to the guillotine! What could be more foolish on my part! I'd rather go back to speaking the advantages of Grace. But what Grace is there is there is "Free Will" which implies men's participation in God's Salvation? I am eternally thankful for your support and understanding! I am always in debt of gratitude to you for such an understanding! I believe is so refreshing to discuss with Colleen and even Lori, by the way they disagree with you... There is no emotional manipulation by the use of comparisons with our feeble and human love with the LOVE OF GOD. And they have the biblical basis of what is currently the thinking of the mains stream denominations so, they do not appear to judge me or you as some type of "aliens that just invented a new religion..." Remember in the ELECT forum when people would show up and think we were all from another planet? They had never heard of Calvin, never heard of Church History or nothing... But they wanted to see us crucified! And then, when we showed them the Word, they would rather leave the discussion, lurk around evevry now and then and later leave without a trace! I think I should just JOIN THE SUPPORT GROUP MENTALITY AND SING COM BY YA... I do not suppose that EVEN IN HEAVEN, people will go for such an insipid and useless attitude! In another note: Did you see the latest article in the Trinity Foundation Report about THE CORRECT THEOLOGY IS BETTER THAN EVANGELISM? I think it was great! But not for some of our brethren here! You know what? I posted for a whole year only in these few days!!!! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Chyna |
dear everyone, i have come late into the discussion. let's say this argument is as old as Christianity. things I do know, the words: election, predestination, are written in the bible. These are biblical concepts, not pulled out of the air. second of all, we know of God's great love. thirdly we know for a fact that people can reject God, and reject Salvation, reject God's plan. this happened in Eden, with Adam and Eve. Things we know about God: He is Love, He is Just, He is omniscient, omnipotent etc. here is the thing that I am content with: God is Omniscient. In the Bible, it says that God from before the world was created He knew who would become saved. I have no problem with this because God is Omniscient. So to say that God knows who will and who will not accept Him does not seem controversial at all. Here is what I think Valerie: God desired to have true fellowship with man. In order to have true fellowship with God, man had to have the freedom to choose God. Well, man didn't choose God, he chose sin. Man fell, and God redeemed mankind through Christ. Now, since God is omniscient He knew that man would fall, He knew that He would send His Son to die on the cross. He knew that some, but not all would be restored to Him. Before all this happened in the continuum of time. God still chose to create man. Will you be angry at God for creating man, knowing some will not be restored to Him? No, we have to feel like God feels. God is joyful at those restored to Him, and He weeps over those that reject Him, just as any loving parent would feel if their own child turned away from them. hope this helps, Chyna | ||
| Graceambassador |
Colleen: Sorry for so many typos and errors in the post above. With my wife in Brazil, (well I am anyway)I am the cook in the house and I know that I am a FATHER THAT IS A MOTHER TO MY BOYS, 23, 21, 19! So, I had to write, go to the oven, write some more and go to the oven.... Then, by the time I needed to REVIEW my writing, I felt as if I was treating my family as "gods": BYR PREPARING BURNT OFFERINGS, so I pushed the "POST" buttom by mistake rather than the PREVIEW/POST. I know that poor writing to a teacher is very offensive. It is for me in my own language where you're nothing if you do not know Grammar in a A+ level! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Chuckiej |
Hey everyone. Thanks for the warm welcomes. I'll point you all to a couple of sites dealing with Calvinism (admittedly from a non-Calvinist standpoint) to let you make of the arguments what you will. At http://www.tektonics.org/pindances.html the author has begun discussing the T.U.L.I.P argument for Calvinism. So far he's only addressed the T (Total Depravity) and P (Perseverance of the Saints). However, it is one of my favorite sites, and I couldn't go without a shameless plug. LOL http://members.aol.com/ndxmanager/index/ Has a pretty comprehensive list of sites that deal with various aspects of Calvinism. Finally, my own 2 cents. In Jn. 12:32 Christ says if he be lifted up, he will draw ALL MEN to him. The context of this verse is judgement upon the "present world" and the casting out of the "prince of this world" (you-know-who). So the all men here truly seems to mean all, since it's context includes the entire (believing and unbelieving) world. I think GA is right that God's power is necessary to make it even possible for us to respond to the Gospel. Where I differ is that 1) This power is available to everyone, even non-Israel and non-Church, because of Christ's drawing all men; and 2) that it is irresistible. Both David (Ps. 95:8) and the writer to the Hebrews (Heb. 4:7) entreat us not to harden our hearts. David wrote to Israel and the writer wrote to the church. Yet they felt the need to warn these people against hardening their hearts. What's the point if the elect can't and the unelect must? Grace is Grace because it is unmerited. We do nothing to deserve it: it was given while we were yet sinners. The fact that we must accept it does not affect the fact that it is underserved. Finally, children are not passive in their birth. They secrete a hormone that triggers the labor process. Now, maybe I'd go along with you if it was the "conceived from above", b/c children are truly uninvolved in conception. But with birth, they trigger the event, based on a *response* to the conditions provided by the mother's body. I guess this raises the question of whether God "induces labor" in those who don't respond, but I'd have to say the answer is no b/c not everyone responds favorably to Christ's drawing. | ||
| Valm |
Hello Chyna, You asked me: Before all this happened in the continuum of time. God still chose to create man. Will you be angry at God for creating man, knowing some will not be restored to Him? No, we have to feel like God feels. Chyna the premises of predestination state that before the beginning of time some of us were elected for salvation some of us not. Those that were elected for salvation come with free will because God gave that to us. Those that do not come do not because God did not give us the will for salvation. In other words we have absolutely no choice in this matter. Chyna this is not a matter of people who are lost due to free choice. This is something much much different. This issue to me is one of a FALSE DOCTRINE which blasphemes the reputation of a just, righteous faithful loving all merciful GOD. In terms of IF this FALSE DOCTRINE were reality. I would be very angry with God. This would be like being forced into a horrid marriage (with someone I could not love or respect) for my survival. I have brought to this forum many many texts which demonstrate the universiality of atonement and they are either ignored or rationalized away by coming to them with the assumption of predestination as the basis for interpreting them. I am distressed at this whole situation. Not because I wish to win and arguement.But because I truly believe that this doctrine brings great dishonor to God and great damage to people. I am find a difficult but rewarding reading of the book ELECT IN THE SON by Robert Shank. This author both studies the premise of predestination, quotes from the founders of this doctrine and offers a scholarly but different perspective on these different texts. I highly reccommend it to anyone struggling with this doctrine and also to anyone that views it in a benign light. This doctrine in my opinion is as damaging to God's reputation and does as much dishonor to him as those coming from 1844. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Hello Chyna, You asked me: Before all this happened in the continuum of time. God still chose to create man. Will you be angry at God for creating man, knowing some will not be restored to Him? No, we have to feel like God feels. Chyna the premises of predestination state that before the beginning of time some of us were elected for salvation some of us not. Those that were elected for salvation come with free will because God gave that to us. Those that do not come do not because God did not give us the will for salvation. In other words we have absolutely no choice in this matter. Chyna this is not a matter of people who are lost due to free choice. This is something much much different. This issue to me is one of a FALSE DOCTRINE which blasphemes the reputation of a just, righteous faithful loving all merciful GOD. In terms of IF this FALSE DOCTRINE were reality. I would be very angry with God. This would be like being forced into a horrid marriage (with someone I could not love or respect) for my survival. I have brought to this forum many many texts which demonstrate the universiality of atonement and they are either ignored or rationalized away by coming to them with the assumption of predestination as the basis for interpreting them. I am distressed at this whole situation. Not because I wish to win and arguement.But because I truly believe that this doctrine brings great dishonor to God and great damage to people. I am find a difficult but rewarding reading of the book ELECT IN THE SON by Robert Shank. This author both studies the premise of predestination, quotes from the founders of this doctrine and offers a scholarly but different perspective on these different texts. I highly reccommend it to anyone struggling with this doctrine and also to anyone that views it in a benign light. This doctrine in my opinion is as damaging to God's reputation and does as much dishonor to him as those coming from 1844. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
GA, I failed to not read your posts and I can not tell you the hurt and devastation I feel. Valerie | ||
| Graceambassador |
Hi Chuck! Welcome! You say: Finally, children are not passive in their birth. They secrete a hormone that triggers the labor process. Now, maybe I'd go along with you if it was the "conceived from above", b/c children are truly uninvolved in conception. But with birth, they trigger the event, based on a *response* to the conditions provided by the mother's body. I guess this raises the question of whether God "induces labor" in those who don't respond, but I'd have to say the answer is no b/c not everyone responds favorably to Christ's drawing. I am familiar with this scientific fact! But you hit the point I was making when you speak of conception! As for the labor, IT IS FAIR AND CORRECT to make this part of the birth process analogous to the portion of the birth where we "come to light", i.e., the fact that we do secret hormones in order to induce labor. Paul said that HE HIMSELF SUFFER LABOR PAINS FOR THE CHURCHES! But allow me to repeat what you said, because it is key to the analogy: But with birth, they trigger the event, based on a *response* to the conditions provided by the mother's body. We trigger the event of being born IN RESPONSE TO A NATURAL CONDITION PROVIDED BY OUR MOTHER'S BODY. These conditions are natural and only a woman can have. It is related, and inherent to womanhood. Baby boys are born in this process and baby girls are as well. There are conditions in the New Birth that are INHERENT TO GOD ALONE! These conditions send signals that ALWAYS IMPELL US TO RESPOND FAVORABLY TO BEING BORN AGAIN OR FROM ABOVE! It is called the Holy Spirit! No wonder Christ said that we have to be born "of the Spirit". Unlike natural birth, where there can be, premature births, deffects, still born babies, miscarriages etc.. the spiritual birth follows through a flawless process: God provides the conditions for man to believe; man responds FAVORABLY TO THESE CONDITIONS BY ALWAYS BELIEVING! THEN, THEY CAME INTO LIGHT. Just a reminder that a birth is not an event that triggers itself. When the Bible speaks about birth, is talking about the whole process that BEGINS AT CONCEPTION. In order for birth to occur, a SEED HAS TO FERTILIZE AN EGG. A seed must then be incorruptible in order to produce INCORRUPTIBLE OFFSPRING! So, we can be sure that when God speaks about birth, He is speaking about the fertilization process! In this process, we have no control! Yours is a very interesting analogy because it follows the same order in John 1. I will let you find the same order yourself, but check and see that the light came to His own and His own received Him notÖ (Isaiah 53 "Who believed our report?" and Romans 11), and then those who received it... you know the rest! I have an uncle who teaches the Presbyterian new Pastors and he believes in another creation prior to the one that we know. This is commonly accepted in some theological circles. I have no opinion. He teaches, with very good authoritative biblical foundation, that the "who believe our report" was the chance that God gave every men and woman to believe Him. Since they did not, He decided to re-create the earth (hence the "replenish the earth" of Genesis 1:28) and then he chose before the foundation of this world we know those who would "believe the report" reported in Isaiah 53. Another pastor friend of mine, with a church of 22000 in Brazil, believes that the un-elected are the descendants of the giants who were offspring of the marriage between the Sons of God and humans (Genesis 6:1-5). He claims that the NEPHILIN is still around. Reports of these people are indeed repeated through the Bible and Jesus says that the last days "it will be as in the days of Noah" when these events happened. When I hear the reports that I hear about what some "freaks" are doing throughout the world, ( I witnessed some of it) sometimes I remember my friend's theology specially some of the wonders practiced by those who claim to have had sex with "extra-terrestrial entities" (we know they're demons, or fallen angels, or spiritual beings not of GodÖ) I sometimes want to go to the Bible and study the lineage of these people, since Jesus said that "the end will be as in the days of NoahÖ" To discuss this here would give me the "chair"Ö (By the way, the Jews and the early church have no other interpretation for NEPHILIN than that they were giants who were offspring of the marriage between fallen angels and humans.) Just a little digression, if you allow me. AS FOR ME, I BELIEVE ALL IS RELATED TO US, TODAY WHO ENJOY THE AVAILABILITY OF THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT COMPILED IN WHAT WE CALL "CANNON". As to: the question of whether God "induces labor" in those who don't respond, but I'd have to say the answer is no b/c not everyone responds favorably to Christ's drawing. Another valid point! I mentioned in a few posts ago that the longer the elect takes to respond favorably the call of God, the more he will suffer or "labor" to use your analogy. There are many people in the Bible who came to Christ through tragedy, either of their own or by a member of their family. We encounter the same pattern in the mission field! Her actually the Bible IS CONFIRMING EXPERIENCE! Yours is a very good and valid analogy. Very good points indeed! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Valm |
Dear Friends, I am not willing to give up on this subject as I feel so passionate about it. I have given scripture after scripture that demonstrate God's will that ALL men be saved and the universiality of the atonement. I will keep adding them until I run out or until I here voices coming forward saying "This is a HERESY an ABOMINATION to our GOD." This has been a good study for me and a good discipline to keep my eyes firmly on Christ. Which has been VERY HARD for me to do. To continue with scripture, I will repeat and start with 1John 2:2 Christ if the propitiation for our sins, and NOT for OURS ONLY but also for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD 1 John 2:2 Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's acts of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. Roman 5:18 Let me ask you with the predestinists use of all in the Bible does that mean that condemnation is not for all man? But we see Jesus, who was made for a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death....that he by the grace of God should tast death for every man Hebrews 2:9 word every instead of all in both the NIV and KJV I do not know about the original Greek. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myuself, He said this to show by what death he was to die. John 12:32 The bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven and giveth life to the WORLD... the bread that I will give ismy flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. John 6:33,51 Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world John 1:29 For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men Titus 2:11 God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as ransom for all. I Tim 2:4-6 God was in Christ reconciling himself to the world 2Cor 5:19 As former Adventists we are all too familiar with the conversation blockers of that faith. What I see here is the same thing happening; although MANY scriptures have been quoted the evidence is dismissed due to the presumption of interpreting them like one who already believes in predestination. Words like ALL, WORLD and WHOSOEVER are dismissed by "proof tests which may or maynot have anything to do with the context of the text you are qouting. Come on we former SDAs could write the book on proof texting!!! How many times have you wished to give scripture to your loved ones in SDAism but knew they would interpret it in light of assumptions made by the SDA church? I urge you to see that the same thing is happening with this doctrine. This has nothing to do with people it has to do with the doctrine and what it does to people. Do not be deceived. Folks I am getting carpal tunnel syndrome here along with taking a bit of abuse. I need some help and encouragement and would appreciate it very much. | ||
| Graceambassador |
1. WHO ARE THOSE WHO ìRECEIVE CHRISTî AND ARE GIVEN THE POWER TO BE CALLED CHILDREN OF GOD 2. WHOSE WILL, GODíS OR MENíS? 3. WHO IS GOD OBLIGATED TO BE JUST TO? 4. WHO IS CHRISTíS SACRIFICE PRIMARILY DIRECTED AND SATISFYING TO? 5. WHY ìELECTIONî CERTIFIES GRACE? 6. WHAT IS BEING BORN AGAIN? POINT BY POINT 1. WHO ARE THOSE WHO ìRECEIVE CHRISTî AND ARE GIVEN THE POWER TO BE CALLED CHILDREN OF GOD It is a common argument to say that ìthose who received Christî are the sons of God. It is easy to interpret the ìreceivingî as an act of free will whereby a man chooses to ìreceiveî Christ. Thankfully, God did not leave us in doubt as to who are those who receive Christ, thus, being called the ìchildren of Godî. Read in the Bible text in John chapter 1 whence we take these terms. This is what you will see: verses 9 - 12 Jesus came to those who were His Those who were His received Him not Those who did receive Him were given the power to be the Children of God Now continue in verse 13 Which were born of not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will or man, but of God! Who are they then? The "born of God are those who are born not according to the natural birth, but those who are born of God; those who are born not according to the will of men but the will of God. This indicates that God is the agent of this type of birth and also He is the one who desire it to be so, meaning, it is His will who makes them to receive Christ and to have the power to become the Children of God. 2. WHOSE WILL, GODíS OR MENíS? The above text clearly shows that those who are born of God, are born because of His perfect will. I was born into the kingdom because of the perfect will of God and not the frailty of mine. This is in total agreement with Paul who says in Ephesians chapter 1 verses 1 through 5 that ends stating that the therein described happens ìaccording to the pleasure of His willî. It is Godís will not ours. Our will could not ìpush usî or lead us to Salvation. The angel said to the shepherds: ìGood will unto menî. It is Godís good will unto men! Meaning, it is God initiating the process of reconciliation! It all starts with God showing favor unto man. But this favor is NOT demonstrated by a confused little ìgodî who calls you helpless and then commands you to use your will to ìhelp yourselfî. This is the greatest contradiction of the free will doctrine. After all, are we all sinners, in a spiritual helpless state or not? If we are, then it would not be fair for God to command us to help ourselves since helpless people cannot help themselves. God had to take the initiative. This type of "grace" is opposed to Bible teaching. It assumes that we kept a major degree of Godís Glory, with capabilities to say ìyes God and no Godî during our sinful state. It is at direct variance with Romans 3:23, ìWe all have sinned and come short of the Glory of Godî. Come short here is poorly translated to identify that we have missed the mark. Missing the mark is the translation for the word ìsinî in Biblical Greek (ìharmartiaî.) Come short does not mean, ìweíre almost thereî ìweíre still similarî it means we are totally off. If I dive in a pool and miss it hitting my head in the cement, I cannot shout ìhey, I almost did itî. The consequences of missing the pool will be dreadful. I missed the pool, I am not in it, therefore I am hurt, I am not wet and I AM OUT OF THE POOL. Missing Godís Glory means I am out of it! Therefore, it has to be Godís will! 3. WHO IS GOD OBLIGATED TO BE JUST TO? Many people say, if it is Godís will for some and some not then God is unjust. That is because of the misconception and the prideful assumption of humans that God has an obligation to be just to us! Not so! God is just for His nameís sake! 1 Sam 12:21 and others through the Bible declares that God will do things because of himself! Psalm 23 says that He leads us (his initiative) in the path of righteousness (a judicial term) for His nameís sake! On Ps 25:11 David asks God to forgive him for His nameís sake, as opposed to forgiving for Davidís own benefit. In Ps 31 he asks God to lead him and guide him ìfor His nameís sakeî. Ps 79:8 he claims to be delivered for His name and to have their SINS PURGED AWAY FOR HIS NAMEíS SAKE. In Ps 106:8 it declares that God allowed the Israelites to go through the Red Sea and be saved for HIS NAMEíS SAKE. In Ps 109 21 he asks God to deliver him again ìfor His nameís sakeî. In Isaiah 48:9 God says that He will defer His anger (Grace) for His nameís sake. In verse 10 He says that He refined (sanctification) ìfor His nameís sakeî. Also, Jeremiah 14:7, 21. In Ezekiel 20:9, 14 and through chapter 20 we see that God did manifest His anger ìfor His nameís sakeî. Also Ezekiel 36:22, Daniel 9:19, God is always concerned to be ìjust for His nameís sakeî. We are undeserving of His justice other than His anger! But he does it because for His name sake He loves us and wants to recuperate us from our fallen condition! 4. WHO IS CHRISTíS SACRIFICE PRIMARILY DIRECTED AND SATISFYING TO? But REJOICE! God provided a Sacrifice upon which He would deposit His wrath ìfor His name sakeî. Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God (not of men, not of the law) was this sacrifice. As in Genesis 22:8, where Abraham was confident that God would ìprovide a sacrifice for HIMSELF, God indeed provided Jesus, a sacrifice that would be pleasing to HIMSELF ìfor His name sakeî. The sacrifice was for God Himself. He placed his anger on Jesus and then ìhe who knew no sin was made to be sin for us so we could become the righteousness of God in Christî. Please, I pray, note, the ìrighteousness (a judicial term) OF GOD in Christ. It is His justice to His own self that benefits us! God has no obligation to be just to me! OH! But I am glad He was just to Himself on my behalf! Glory to His blessed name! 5. WHY ìELECTIONî CERTIFIES GRACE? Because we were dead in our trespasses (going beyond the mark) and sins (coming short of the mark). No one had right to Salvation. But God, being rich in mercy, by His Grace called some before the foundation of the world to be saved by Grace! 6. WHAT IS BEING BORN AGAIN? When Jesus told a Jewish lawyer ìyou must be born againî He was introducing the ìgood newsî idea that the law which that Lawyer followed could not do for Him what God only could: Transform him into a new creation, (2 Cor 5:17) born from above, which is a good translation for the word ìagainî. Being born again is to be born of God. Being born again is a term Jesus used to distinguish the ìbeing born a Jewî type of mind-set. Being born from God, from above or again is more than having a birth right to a promise. Being born again is when God is not only the one who promised the perfect sacrifice but the one who would provide the sacrifice, and yea,WOULD BECOME the sacrifice in Jesus the God incarnate! Christianity is distinguished from other religions because: The offended party is seeking the offender The offended party promised a sacrifice of peace to the offender The offended party BECOMES the sacrifice of peace for the offender The offended party accredits the benefits of His own sacrifice to the offender ( Oh! the ministry of reconciliation!) The offended party forever forgives and forgets what the offender did on the basis of the sacrifice of peace that He became! I feel sorry for the others, but you CANNOT FIND A BETTER AND MORE PERFECT PLAN THEN IN CHRISTIANITY Grace Ambassador | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Saints: My intention here was just to post a view that many are probably not familiar with. The intense dispute and argument that it raised is going on for some 6 centuries. I am posting what I feel is from God and I respect anybody's right to do the same. I am glad my studies in some weird way, caused people to go to the Bible. This is actually good! "Coincidentally", my posts are coming right after an particular opposing view, lending the impression that this is a game of wills. This is not, however a coincidence. It takes an immature Christian to think this is purely coincidental. The devil our adversary is very smart in taking advantage of these situations. I am not ignorant of his devices. As the deceiver, he may cause some to think that this is being done on purpose either by me or my opposing party somehow to offend or hurt the other or the other's "following". No so! And I am confident in my God, who saved both me and the other party, to believe that it is NOT SO also in her heart. The way to beat the devil at this point so neither I nor the other party is used of him to cause dissention, is to graciously retreat. I know that the predestination issue runs in this forum in cycles. It will come back because people simply cannot prove beyond shadow of doubt that it is not a biblical doctrine. Some will say, it is in the Bible with thus and so..., it is in the Bible but... but never say, "it is not in the Bible". So, I believe God intended for this to be in His word because through the centuries he keeps bringing it back to all evangelical circles. As such, I am sure that the opportunity will come in this forum for us to discuss it again. As for me, I refuse to be used of the devil to bring the appearance of a childsh game of wills, and I am sure the other party has no intention of being used of the devil either. Those who received much, will be required much, and those in leadership in the body will be judged by a higher standard. Therefore it is up to me to take the initiative to retreat! I am not saying that "I received much" but in a way, I am the one who carries an ordination, and it is expected of me, and yea, demanded of me to be the one who takes the initiative to retreat. Love demands from self and tolerate the others. To tolerate self and to demand from the other is opposed to biblical love. I demand of myself to shut up at this point! I will post in other issues if I find I can learn from them. When the predestination cycle comes back and the Lord finds it within His plan to keep me strong to come back to it I will. If not me, He will find someone else. Thank you for all the support I received both privately and publicly during this discussion on Election and Predestination. Let God be true and every man a liar! Finally, let me repeat the words of Paul in Romans 16:19-20 ( I will use the NIV ). This is the motto of the Embassy of Grace, my ministry. BE EXCELLENT AT WHAT IS GOOD; BE INNOCENT OF EVIL. AND THE GOD OF PEACE SHALL SOON CRUSH SATAN UNDERNEATH YOUR FEET! and Micah 6:8 KJV, personalized: He hath showed thee Milton what is good; and what doeth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Grace Ambassador | ||
| Richardtinker |
Everyone involved in this discussion: Personal attacks (calling someone names, etc.) or questioning someones charactor is offensive and will not be tolerated. This thread seems to be less and less a discussion that is related to former Adventist's needs, and more a continuation of an argument that has gone on for centuries. Saved Christians have disagreed about election, and will most likely continue to disagree. Let us lift up Christ Jesus, and He will draw all men. As the Bible says in Titus 3:9, "But avoid foolish controversies..." -Richard, who always needs your prayers for wisdom on running this website and forum | ||
| Valm |
Hello I am back and will post a couple of things as tomorrow is a busy day for me. First this is a comment that a contemporary predestinist wrote with regards to those wonderful scriptures I quoted. His name is Murrayand he wrote a book called Redemtion Accomplished and Applied. No conclusive support for the doctrine of universal atonement can be derived from universalistic expressions. The question must be determined on the basis of other evidence. In his book he also alleges Christ suffered sufficiently for all, but efficiently only for the elect Decide for yourselves. Valerie |
