| Author | Message | ||
| Valm |
Now I have a lengthy quote from ELECT IN THE SON by Robert Shank. I am dreading this typing but sincerely believe it is of importance for this discussion. The atonement is efficacious for all men potentially, for no man unconditionally and for the Israel of God efficiently. The above proposition is demonstrated in the Holy Scriptures in the ordinance of the annual Day of Atonement observed by Israel.....The design of the ordinance was to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. The New Testament especially the Epistle to the Hebrews, unfolds for us the rich symbolish of the ordinance, typical of Christ and the atonement accomplished "once in the consummation of the ages" through our Lord's offering of Himself once for all for ever.....Let it be ovserved that the atonement was made for all the sins of all the People of Israel, without exception. It was an objective atonement providing the benefits of grace for all alike, into which the people could enter as individuals only by personal faith.The benefits of the atonement, graciously provide for all, were not conferred on all people or any individuals automatically and indiscriminately. Although the atonement was made for the sins of all the nation, it was of no efficacy for the impenitent in the nation. Exactly so, on the once for all for ever Day of Atonement, the Savior of the world offered Himself as the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, making an everlasting atonemnet that avails for all the penitent faithful, and for them alone. Again we state our thesis; the atonement if efficacious for all men potentially, for no man unconditionally and for the Israel of God efficiently | ||
| Valm |
Again a qoute from Shank: The doctrine of limited atonement (limited by arbitrary decree of God) is a reproach to the Saviour of the world and impugns the majesty of Him who stood one day in old Capernaum and declared, "I am the living bread whch came down from heaven: if any man feed on this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." The fallacious doctrine of limited atonement impugns the majesty of Him who a few days before His crucifision, sttod in Old Jerusalem and quietly said, "And I, if I be lifte up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." Sweet dreams all, I hope to check in briefly tomorrow, but will be busy saving babies during the day and participating in Ash Weds service in the evening. And yes, I unfortunately found out that the founding Fathers of the Episcopal Church believed this too, although most leaders in the church do not believe it to be so today. I am learning alot lately Valerie | ||
| Chyna |
hey Richard, I have felt very much the same, the predestination issue has been debated forever back and forth between Christians of all denominations for ages. All of us, as Christians, have to reconcile ourselves to not being able to understand everything about God. like: Why did God destroy entire races? Why did God love Jacob and hate Esau? Why did God let an evil spirit harden Pharoah's heart? Why does God allow pain and suffering in the world? Why did God choose Israel, a weak slave tribe? Why is God going to harden peoples hearts in the end times so they won't believe in Him? the last one is one of the most troubling ones. And, in this case of predestination it has to be enough to agree to disagree. I don't think it changes how we live our Christian lives. Dear Valerie, predestination, election ... they undeniably exist as testified by the apostles. How that bears out, I do not know the complete picture. But what I do know that being angry at God is pretty futile. And turning away from God is turning away from all that is good, because God is the definition of goodness. God accepts everything about you, and loves you unconditionally, for you to reject Him out of the possibility of predestination ... you did say something about rejecting "Christianity" and not God. "I AM Who I AM" said God. Who are we, the clay to say to the potter, anything? It says in that verse that He uses one vessel for good use, and one vessel for ill use, who are we to question Him? True, God is our best friend, our father, our brother, Our Comforter. But do not forget that He is God, Creator of the Universe, Creator of you and me, who holds the heavens in the palm of His hands. His Holiness demands our reverence. Reading Job might help, especially God's reply to Job when Job questioned God endlessly. Anyway, that is to say, Valerie -- many Christians have debated predestination for a long time, and neither side has won, the greatest theologians have pondered and investigated predestination. I know that I don't normally talk about predestination with new believers, it's not until they are more secure in a holistic knowledge of Who God is, that the subject even can be broached. If this is a stumbling block, which I think it might be for many, I don't think we should keep discussing it. The doctrine of predestination is VERY unlike the false heretical doctrine that define Adventism. It is not like IJ, which is made up, or like Michael, which is bad exegesis, or hell is annihilation, which is also bad exegesis. The reason why predestination is so hard to discuss is that there is not a whole lot in the Bible about it, which means to me that it is not one of the most important things in Christianity. Whether it exists or does not, like Colleen says, it doesn't change anything about how we are to live out our Christian lives. We are still to share with people. We are still to believe that God loves everyone and desires for them to be with Him. We are still to mourn over those that do not come to Him. I hope we all can be reconciled even with differing opinions. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Sherry2 |
This is just a thought - would anyone like to start a new thread on this subject, so that this Discussion Topic which is Heresies you have learned in the SDA Church can be just that? If I was a newly leaving former or thinking about it, and came to this site and wanted to look up this topic, I think I would not find what I was looking for....Is this really helpful to someone leaving the SDA church? Paul tells us to live in the "bonds of peace" not "bonds of sameness". Please, can we do this? | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Valerie, Thanks for your notes to me! :-)) It was actually my husband who saw the post first about his "burning"...:-)) and then he called me over to see. Honestly, we were NOT upset--other than feeling bad that you were feeling despair over the whole discussion. I admire your passion; I know that I, myself, have worked myself into an emotional sickness over some issues many times! (And I still do!) But I am trying to REST more in the Lord every minute of the day! It is not always easy, but I'm trying more and more to focus on the words of Phillipians 4: "REJOICE in the LORD ALWAYS, I will say it again, REJOICE! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The LORD is NEAR. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the PEACE OF GOD, which TRANSCENDS ALL UNDERSTANDING, will guard your hearts and your minds in CHRIST JESUS." Wonderful words, aren't they! As far as Hell goes, we've already been there... and the "burning" feeling has been real. :-)) Yet, I still have hope to miss the actual end-time one! And I still see God's Spirit in the midst of our lives. Grace always, Val! Cindy | ||
| Valm |
Chyna, There are many thngs in your post that concern me and I will copy them here and try to quickly tie them up in a summation. "I know that I don't normally talk about predestination with new believers, it's not until they are more secure in a holistic knowledge of Who God is, that the subject even can be broached." "The doctrine of predestination is VERY unlike the false heretical doctrine that define Adventism." ". And turning away from God is turning away from all that is good, because God is the definition of goodness. God accepts everything about you, and loves you unconditionally, for you to reject Him out of the possibility of predestination ... you did say something about rejecting "Christianity" Although this doctrine is as a doctrine diferent than those of SDAism the disfunctional approaches to the doctrine are the same, some I have already mentioned here. And you pointed out another BIG one the SDA's use: don't spring a doctrine on them until they are ready for it. You were with your ex long enough to know that there were many doctrines of the SDA church that were not disclosed and why? They are done that way because they know the doctrines will not be accepted until much of the person was invested in the other parts of the message. Or as my husband would say conditioned to brainwash. A true holistic knowledge of God in my mind would cause a believer to dismiss this doctine because this doctrine attacks the very heart of God's character of the love and the security I enjoy in him. How can I ever presume that he is all accepting of me and loves me unconditionally if before I was even born he possibly did not choose me among his elect? And for me to presume I was among his elect would be only to look at myself and what I am doing; I could not presume otherwise. I can only keep my eyes focused on Jesus in the belief of the universiality of the atonement. Otherwise I will be looking in myself for evidence that I was drawn to him by preelection. I remember having non Christian friends who would roll their eyes and sigh "another one of God's choosen people." I was naive enough to not know what they were talking about and didn't pursue the matter. For me this has been a new revelation that SO MANY Christian people believe this way or take an "Oh Well" its been around for a long time attitude. For myself there have been many evils debated over the course of history that we still continue to fight. And for myself this is another one of them. This is not meant to offend or attack anyone. I just truly truly find this doctrine horrific. And I am truly saddened to find people under it. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Sherry2, Your point is very well taken. I have often said that if I was a new former and saw that this doctrine was being promoted I would say "Out of the frying pan, into the fire." I have been a passionate voice against this doctrine for this reason. I can not express the deep pit I was in emotionally and spiritually over the weekend due to the realization that the scriptures might really be saying this and that people in 2001 really believe this way. And thus my passion. Your point will be taken to heart and I will discontinue my discussion about it here and will consider over the day whether I will start a new thread on this matter. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Dear Cindy, Thank you for your gracious note and concern. Along with the concern, I hope your husband got a chuckle out of it too. Yes, I am worked up in a tither and need to calm down. I think the day ahead of saving babies will do me good. Despite being worked up, as I go through my day and see this marvelous blue sky we have been having, I can't help but belt out hymns of joy and praise. So I am taking breaks from this to rejoice. You two take care and many blessing to you. Valerie | ||
| Shereen |
Hi, I haven't read for awhile and boy is there ever alot to catch up on. I only skimmed everything but I caught the jest of everything. I have to say that if I ever let myself get immersed in things like predestination or once saved always saved etc. I would be lost. Diversions like this are not good for me. If I believed for a second that predestination was true I would just give up and party, live life on the edge and stop praying. It is like riding a bus, I know when my stop comes so I drift for the whole ride but when I am driving my car, I am aware of everything around me and manouver accordingly. I might just be taking the easy way out by not giving my attention to issues that I know will trip me up. At this point in my life, I need to trust God and maybe be in the dark a bit when it comes to issues such as the above. I know all the arguments about being judged for what you purposely don't know (or is that an EGW thing). My walk, at times, is very precarious while at others it is a peaceful gliding kind of thing. Once again, my thoughts don't seem to get to the keyboard easily. I need, desperately need, to concentrate on a loving relationship with God. I have to believe in His unconditional love. I cannot survive if I start to think of all the so called conditions, predestination, rules, etc. I did most of that in the SDA church and it still burns from time to time. One more little example of what I am trying to say is, I have 3 children whom I love beyond explanation. My children get home from whatever adventure or problem they are in and totally relax eventually because they are at home and safe and even for the oldest, mommies kisses and cuddles make it all go away. If I put conditions on my love and get caught up in things they should do and didn't do and harp on them, they won't find they much needed sanctuary they need at the moment. Yes, they need to learn responsibility but they do these things from love, not because I am ordering them. From time to time, things slip and I battle myself to keep silent and let things work themselves out. At all times, though, I love these little people and always have open arms, comforting words, laughter and a safe haven for them. This is how I MUST see my Lord also. Shereen | ||
| Jay |
This issue of predestination has caused me great agony. I did not realize until several years ago that a substantial portion of Christendom subscribes to the doctrine of double election, ie, God chooses some for salvation and some for damnation. How sheltered and naive I was due to having grown up in Adventism with its hyper-Arminianism. I have been a member of a Presbyterian (USA) church for 6 years, but have told the pastor that I could not be a member if I had to profess belief in predestination. It was a surprise to hear him say that he does not believe in predestination, either! In fact, an elder in my church professed to not even be aware of this belief! At any rate, I am grateful to be in a church that does not have a dogmatic membership litmus test in regard to this doctrine, a doctrine that is, honestly, a hallmark of historical Presbyterian and Reformed theology. Valerie, I, also, have found myself thinking that if the doctrine of predestination is what the Bible really teaches, then I would have to leave Christianity. The idea that God does not love some people - and consigns them to burn forever in hell - is horrific and scandalous! It is viscerally repulsive! It is anathema! I fear that such a doctrine has brought great reproach upon Christianity, even helping to spawn Unitarianism-Univeralism, which in its present form is arguably, non-Christian. With one of Colleens posts above I agree. Since we see things in terms of time, it is hard to reconcile God's foreknowledge of who will choose him with the concept of our having a will to choose him. God's foreknowledge does seem to be in tension with our free-will. Perhaps, then, we see things chronologically and sequentially. If God is outside or above time, then whether we have free will or not may be a moot point, and perhaps the "Arminian Free-Willers" and the Calvinists are like blind women feeling different parts of an elephant, with each woman defining the elephant in terms of the small part that she is touching. Grace Ambassador, I do understand some of the appeal of your belief in Predestination. To "know" that one is God's child with eternal security would be wonderful, indeed. I have several Calvinist friends with whom I have had very heated debates. Yet, I must confess, that these friends do manifest the sweet savor of Christ's love. It is because of one of them that that I came back to Christ several years ago, after having wandered far away from Him for years. I say, "came back" to Christ, because I did known Him, even when I was an Adventist. Grace Ambassador, I am confident that our Lord's grace is working its leaven on your life and those whom you touch. I do understand Valerie's fear, though, of what seems to be the Calvinist's dogmatism in saying that those who believe in free-will are heretics. Truly, exclusivistic attitudes are a hallmark of the Adventism from which she is escaping. We refugees from Adventism have our "radar" out for dogmatism. We don't want to escape from the "fryingpan" of one dogmatism only to find ourselves in the "fire" of another dogmatism! In conclusion, there is great comfort for me in II Peter 3:9: God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. I take this verse to mean what it says. Blessings to all. How we - and I - need the sweet love of Christ in our hearts to discuss and respectfully disagree on what can be a bitterly divisive topic. Jay | ||
| Chyna |
Dear Valerie, I do regret what you have written about "springing doctrine" on Christians later it is not that at all. It is a more complex issues that doesn't directly affect one's salvation. just as the interpretation of Revelations. I'm not going to spring an indepth conversation about pre-trib mid-trib, post trib with a new believer ... As I said before there is validity to both sides of the argument. God loved Jacob, hated Esau, God uses one vessel for honorable use, the other not. God sent an evil spirit to harden Pharoah's heart, God sent an evil spirit to Judas also. God destroyed entire races, God spared Ninevah. You can't just pick and choose which attributes of God you like, and dislike. God is Holiness, and He is Just and I believe that however predestination is written out then it is both Holy and Just, coexisting with God's graciousness and God's mercy. There are VALID reasons for people believing in predestination, one of which, Jay, I might add is that the terminology comes from the Bible, it is not something conjured up ... Romans 8:28-30 28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 9 11 Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God's purpose of election might continue, 12 not by works but by his call) she was told, "The elder shall serve the younger." ." 13 As it is written, "I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau." 14 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses. 19 You will say to me then, "Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; 23 and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for gloryó 24 including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call "my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call "beloved.' " 26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, "You are not my people,' there they shall be called children of the living God." 27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the children of Israel were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute his sentence on the earth quickly and decisively." F55 29 And as Isaiah predicted, "If the Lord of hosts had not left survivors F56 to us, we would have fared like Sodom and been made like Gomorrah." 30 What then are we to say? Gentiles, who did not strive for righteousness, have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith; 31 but Israel, who did strive for the righteousness that is based on the law, did not succeed in fulfilling that law. 32 Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written, "See, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make people stumble, a rock that will make them fall, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame." In Romans 11, they talk about the elect, but in that chapter it seems as though Paul is addressing who will become the saints. anyway, I am not striving to continue this discussion but to point out that the various doctrines of predestination, whether pro or against, they all stem from these scriptures, which don't tell us how God works, just that we know if we are Christians we have been elected, we were foreknown before the dawn of time. it seems to me that EVERY time Paul talks about it, he is reassuring and rejoicing with Christians about our salvation, not pointing out an injustice in God's character. the VOCABULARY comes from the Bible, this is why we discuss it, not because it is conjecture, but out of theological discussions it is worth thinking about. Dear Valerie, there are many doctrines in the church as hotly disputed as this one. Like, for example: women serving as pastors in the church. And others like baptism. These are all as potentially divisive as the false doctrines of Adventism because in many cases so many are equally convinced on opposing sides. Does this mean we have to abandon Christianity? No. To me it means feeling humbled knowing that we can't understand everything about God. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
sorry, I am continuing the discussion. but please take a look at the chapter of Matt 22. In it, Jesus describes how the King (God) invited all these people (Israel) to join his wedding banquet. Then he told his servants to invite EVERYONE (us, gentiles) to the banquet. He ends with: "For many are called, but few are chosen." in many of these passages it seems to refer to why God/Jesus is seeking to save the Gentiles. also I'd like to point out that God invited everyone. "many are called" meaning that God pursues all of us, "but few are chosen." few choose to come to the wedding. I don't know, it's complicated, which is why it's complicated. Chyna! | ||
| Billtwisse |
A belated Ash Wednesday greetings to you all! I was a total vegetarian today without even thinking about it--or the fact that it was A.W.--my goodness! Have the churches of Babylon made a devilish impact upon my conscience? No, don't worry about me! I didn't go 'all the way' and pig out at lunch on fried fish and potatoes with the rest of the Lenten devout! So much for my 'last ditch' attempt at sarcastic humor. It is time for me to present my closing argument and sign off of this fine discussion. I realize that G.A. and myself have been 'out-gunned' in terms of human might and argument. The Lord is our witness and judge, however. I started this whole line of discussion by discussing a heresy that I believe Adventism taught me. That heresy is revolving-door salvation based on free-will dogma. Based on a study of the history of Christianity, I believe this important truth: although shedding the investigative judgment doctrine may renounce the very worst form of revolving-door salvation in history, the principle of it has its roots in 19+ centuries of Justinian free-will. There is really nothing new in the dogma of 'initial salvation' by faith and final salvation obtained by the exercise of the will (character). In all of these free-will scenarios, final justification is by character in addition to grace. On this board, we have discussed the whole matter of the Reformation versus the Roman Catholic doctrine of justification. This whole issue was the original catalyst of the 'last wave' movement away from SDAism; beginning in the early 70's. The critics of Election need to go back and study the details of that history. There is much to be learned by understanding the original teaching of those who led the 'great apostasy' away from SDA thought. Since John Murray ('Redemption Accomplished and Applied') has been highly criticized in this discussion, I will point out that his writing was one of the major catalysts in the original thinking of these men on justification by grace. The long and short of it is the teaching of the Reformers versus the Council of Trent. Those who revived the grace/justification doctrine of the Reformers in the 70's thought they could disagree with 50% of Trent and return to the teaching of the New Testament. I propose that they were wrong. I believe that this is confirmed by the horrible fact that so many of those who left SDAism in the early 80's ended up clear outside of Christianity. Reformed teachers and pastors warned me in 1982-83 that this would be the ultimate result of a rejection of the full teaching of grace as taught by the Reformers--as opposed to Trent. The Reformation doctrine of salvation was centered on 2 very important issues: 1. How a person is justified before God (by grace in Christ through faith). 2. The basis of absolute confidence for eternity (as opposed to confidence only for the present moment). This is the doctrine of God's election. The canons of Trent condemn to hell the 'arrogant' who are certain of their election in Christ--with virtually as many statements of damnation as it condemns those who believe in justification by 'imputed righteousness alone.' At that point in time, the two were seen as components of one and the same issue. I am one of the 'arrogant' condemned in the Council, so yes--by God's grace in Christ--I believe I am chosen! It is very unfortunate that some in this discussion have equated Christian confidence in being one of Christ's sheep (John 6,10) with the confidence of deranged political revolutionaries. The central motif of the Bible is redemptive-historical. It's message is grounded in the covenants. The New Covenant is all about God's oath to forever cancel the sins of those who are given faith. This gift, in Paul's crowning argument about election in Romans 8:28-11:36, is irrevocable. God promises to write his laws on the heart by divine initiative alone. This includes the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (faith). Arguments regarding how all of this is too complicated and too great of a mystery to understand will hardly stand up to Romans 9-11. Paul uses the salvation of the true Israel scattered among the nations (prophesied in Hosea--in considering the redemption of the whoring wife) as the chief example of how God's gifts and calling are irrevocable. Chapter 9 is clear that this refers especially to individuals, not just people or nations in general. The argument of Paul in Romans to advance the gospel he introduces in 1:16,17 is 3-tiered: 1. The universal sinfulness of mankind (1:18-3:20). 2. Justification by faith without observing ANY law-covenant (3:21-8:27). 3. Divine election before birth or having done anything good or bad (8:28-11:36). I would try and illustrate this as follows: #1 is the foundation, #2 is the building, #3 is the roof on the building--the crowning argument. We can be saved short of accepting #3--but our basis of absolute confidence will be dwarfed. That is because we will have the idea (at least suspicion) that unless we maintain faith by our wills, salvation will not finally be ours. In my view, "Elect in the Son" is the worst treatment of the doctrine of election in print. It makes a mockery of the grace teaching of the Reformation and all of those who have stood in that exaltation of grace. Robert Shank ended up joining the Campbellites (Church of Christ) as the final act of his pilgrimage into absolute free-will. Chyna, I believe that you have spoken the truth in love! You can't just pick and choose which attributes of God you like, and dislike. God is Holiness, and He is Just and I believe that however predestination is written out then it is both Holy and Just, coexisting with God's graciousness and God's mercy. Amen! God is merciful in the very core of his nature. The judge of all the earth will do right. How can we mortals sit in judgment upon God and say that because he doesn't provide an atonement for the devil and his angels (absolute equality of opportunity), he is unjust! If we try and do that we are attempting to create God in our image. The Bible reveals how God's righteous judgments will be manifest in eternity: a saved people in Christ ruling and reigning over the devil and his children. That is the final consummation of history--which is really the starting point of God's purposes. Any teaching that would fall short of confessing God's wisdom in this final awesome reality is not focused on the big picture of redemption. --Twisse | ||
| Richardjr |
I don't think any of us had the freedom to choose to be born. Many also had their parents choose their spouse for them. Studies show these arranged marriages are usually more successfull than free-will marriages, | ||
| Lori |
Bill Twisse, You don't have the correct concept of election from the opposing view. You err greatly in what you think we think. Your statements have little accuracy to the reality. Just thought you would like to be informed. Lori | ||
| Cindy |
Uncle Milt/Grace Ambassador...;-)) Thank-you so much for those texts on the justice of God. "For His names's sake"! Wonderful words! I also feel our own existence is for His names's sake--to GLORIFY GOD! Not to "prove" anything to Satan... Blessings to you today! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Jay, Good Morning!Thanks for your input. :-)) I appreciate your comment: "How we - and I - need the sweet love of Christ in our hearts to discuss and respectfully disagree on what can be a bitterly divisive topic." It is so easy to let my pride in my own "rightness" come across. Even when I definitely believe God's character is being attacked by a certain view... But God is big enough to defend Himself!! We can relax in that!... and listen to what others say... and still attempt to speak the truth we believe!... in love. Grace always, Cindy p.s. Jay, what part of the country are you from? | ||
| Valm |
Bill, Once again you are in true form starting your conversation by insulting people: A belated Ash Wednesday greetings to you all! I was a total vegetarian today without even thinking about it--or the fact that it was A.W.--my goodness! Have the churches of Babylon made a devilish impact upon my conscience? No, don't worry about me! I didn't go 'all the way' and pig out at lunch on fried fish and potatoes with the rest of the Lenten devout! Your arrogant and hurtful comment detains me from reading anymore of what you have to say. why would anyone want to take you seriously when you persist on this poor behavior? Valerie | ||
| Cindy |
Chyna, Thank-you for your words...I liked what you suggested earlier about reading Job! I love those words of God at the beginning of chapter 38: "Who is this that darkens my counsel; with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand." And later in chapter 40: "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!... Will you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?" And then finally, Job's reply in chapter 42: "I know that You can do all things, no plan of yours can be thwarted... Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know... My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." I love the sovereignity and justice of God! May our eyes also "see" Him as Job did. I know this is a gift from the Holy Spirit to realize GOD'S WILL in our affairs! I rejoice in the knowledge that He is in control. A relationship with Him is truely a reward--even now! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
All, I am one of those who the church of Babylon has made the devilish impact upon. This is what my SDA Father would also say. Why do I keep the lenten tradition, holy week and Easter? Because I find the rich symbolish in this experience draws me CLOSER to JESUS and grounds me in what my life would be without him and without the NEW COVENANT. After meditating on that experience I have a period of wonderful rejoicing in our Chosen One's WILLING DEATH, and RESSURECTION. Valerie |
