| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Valerie, As a child, I was well trained in how to run to the mountains for safety, by my father. He also canned many foods and dried foods too. Later in years, even through the early 90s, I was still prepared to head for the mountains. Camouflouge (sp) and all. Infact this training saved my life on more than one occasion. Praise God for His mountains! Although, I am grateful that my father taught me how to survive in the mountains as later in life, as a teen, I had to run to the mountains on many occasion to get away from abuses at home with my grandmother. Also in a 12 year relationship that would be my escape and also against 'gay bashing' by cops, I hid in the mountains more times than I can count. I can survive well in the mountains and for that, I'm very happy. Now city life is a whole new ballgame. just 10 years into it. Prior to that, I was in the mountains quite often and lived in caves too. Mountains are my home. But teaching children fear like religion did me for a lonnnnnnngggg time, is terrible. If I would have had children, I would have taught them survival in the mountains as it is a very useful thing to know. Not to mention, fun and it brings me to feeling closer to God too. I know that our feelings are not supposed to count but I still feel closer with God in the mountains. I miss them terribly. But I would NOT have done it telling them that some day they would be killed by other Christians and such things like that. God Bless, Denise | ||
| Chyna |
i think it was really awesome how once i started typing, it came so easily to me to think through, all to God's credit for His Glory alone. what I wrote is only powerful because of what it describes: our Salvation. after I wrote it, i saw how it succinctly and simply it addressed the question of Sabbath, so I popped it off in an e-mail to a few of my adventist friends. my prayers are with all who still struggle with Sabbath and legalism. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
also another thing I'd like to share. as i posted on the 2000 thread i have not been so good after the break up with my Adventist b/f. but today i was reading reader's digest and the quote that struck at my heart was this: Truth is a hard master, and costly to serve, but it simplifies all problems. yes, I lost my first love, yes, I lost all the dreams of us marrying and having babies, serving God together in the missions field together. but why did I do it? I refused to budge from the truth, the truth that I hold dearest to my heart which is Salvation. Jesus says Himself that He is ... the Truth (also the Way, and the Life). life is hard for many of us it seems like. when Adventists leave adventism it turns their lives amok in many instances. Losing friends, losing family, being uprooted. Yet it was the truth we were searching for that is so dearly won. the Truth of the Cross, is what we now cling to. no longer maybe you do not have the easy social communities an Adventist lifestyle afforded you, or live by the rules that have been the most familiar and oddly comforting, but if you honestly think about it prisoners often commit crimes to go back to prison. From someone who hasn't been raised in the system, we think that's crazy. but to them it's all they know, they have friends there, they know the rules of the game. they're comfortable in their controlled lives. We can look at them and think they are insane wanting to go back to prison to sleep in a jail cell every night of their lives. Yes, leaving Adventism is scary but do you see that Adventists live in a prison of legalism? once of the best pieces of advice I have ever received was: do it scared. if losing Adventism means the only thing you can cling to is God, then what have you got to lose? it seems all throughout a Christian's life, God continually makes us lose all of our safety nets, to become totally dependent on Him. the very doctrine that sets your borders: no jewelry, no meat, no dancing, no alcohol, observe sabbath correctly! etc, is the same substance that builds your walls higher and higher until you can't see the beautiful light of Salvation. it is Grace that many Adventist have a hard time realizing because of all the walls they've grown up around blocking the way. in a way it seems like Grace is all we need to know. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Valm |
I am feeling quite jazzed tonight. I am once again reviewing that little online book New Covenant Christians. I could not reccommend it more than I already have but here I am again reccommending it to those who have Sabbath worries. Although this book does not directly try to dismiss Sabbath keeping, it clearly states what Christ's commandments to us are about: LOVING ONE ANOTHER. Over and over this is reitteratesuch as in 1 John 3:23-24 And this is his command; to believe in the name of his son, Jesus Christ, and to love on another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and him in them. and this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the spirit he gave us. Pretty simple living. Love on another, including ourselves. Which if carried through by each and every one of us protects us from the symptoms of the disease of not loving we see all around us!!! The point is that throughout the New Testement when they speak of Jesus commandment it comes down to loving one another! Not keeping a day, a ceremony, eating of certain foods, wearing of certain clothes, etc...... A point that Clay Peck makes in this book which I found healing to my wounded background (as a SDA) as well as I would question to any Adventist pushing the Sabbath is their quoting of Revelation 12:17 where John refers to those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. The author states that in John's writings in John 1,2,and 3 that when he refers to the commandments of Jesus he uses the Greek word entole. And I gather from the point he is making the word entole is used in Revelation 12:17. (I remember that Rev 12:17 was a key verse used by SDAs of my childhood in reference to the keeping of the ten commandments). When John spoke of the Mosaic law he used another Greek word for law, Nomos. In otherwords when John referenced Mosaic law he used nomos and when he referenced New Covenant law he used entole. An arguement for the usefulness of learning Greek which was discussed on another thread! SO YOU GREEK experts out there. Could you confirm which word is used in Revelation 12:17? The arguement of the Sabbath has nothing to do with how to keep or what day to keep. In fact, it seems like a nonarguement to me. Both Paul and John's writings state that the New Covenant Commandments are based on proclaiming Christ as our saviour and loving one another. I feel like a "love" child.... in the purest sense, of course!!!! | ||
| Valm |
Jtree, where on line could we participate or view this discussion on the Sabbath being done away with? By the way, the phrase "done away with" might be a misnomer. Fulfilled in Christ Jesus is a much more poignant phrase. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Valerie, Nomos is not found in the Book of Revelation as far as my seach is showing. But I am not a scholar by any means. However, the word 'entole' is in the book of Revelation. Here is a description of both and their meaning: Home > Lexicons > Greek > Nomos The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 3551 Browse Lexicon Original Word Word Origin novmoþ from a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Nomos 4:1022,646 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech nom'-os Noun Masculine Definition anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command of any law whatsoever a law or rule producing a state approved of God 1a by the observance of which is approved of God a precept or injunction the rule of action prescribed by reason of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT King James Word Usage - Total: 197 law 197 KJV Verse Count Matthew 8 Luke 9 John 13 Acts 19 Romans 51 1 Corinthians 7 Galatians 25 Ephesians 1 Philippians 3 1 Timothy 2 Hebrews 13 James 7 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Total 158 | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Valerie, here is one of the verses with the word 'entole' in it.: Greek Word: Ejntolhv Transliterated Word: entole Book to Display: Revelation Verse Count: 3 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandment s of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Valerie, Since i'm just learning this cut and paste stuff, next will be a post (hopefully) on the definition of 'entole.' God Bless, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Valerie, Entole' and it's definition: Home > Lexicons > Greek > Entole The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 1785 Browse Lexicon Original Word Word Origin ejntolhv from (1781) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Entole 2:545,234 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech en-tol-ay' Noun Feminine Definition an order, command, charge, precept, injunction that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office a commandment a prescribed rule in accordance with which a thing is done a precept relating to lineage, of the Mosaic precept concerning the priesthood ethically used of the commandments in the Mosaic law or Jewish tradition King James Word Usage - Total: 71 commandment 69, precept 2 God Bless, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
here are the books that the word 'entole' is in: KJV Verse Count Matthew 7 Mark 8 Luke 4 John 9 Acts 1 Romans 7 1 Corinthians 2 Ephesians 2 Colossians 1 1 Timothy 1 Titus 1 Hebrews 4 2 Peter 2 1 John 10 2 John 3 Revelation 3 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Total 65 | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hey, this cut and paste stuff is really handy! Before today, I typed out every single word. Now, how do I prevent it from pasting more than one copy of what I want? It is pasting at least three of the same thing, each time I paste. I only cut once..so what's the problem? Anyone have an idea? God Bless, Denise | ||
| Valm |
You are one ambitious person to type out everysingle word. If you are getting repetitives when you paste you have either hit the copy command or the paste command more that once without realizing it. Thanks for answering my question. So in Rev 12:17 John is refering to the commandments of Jesus not the Mosaic law which are different in my mind. That brings on a whole different meaning as to what God's remnant people will be doing in the last days. Valerie | ||
| Patti |
Val wrote: So in Rev 12:17 John is refering to the commandments of Jesus not the Mosaic law which are different in my mind. Patti: Hi, Val, You are probably going to hate me for this, but I feel that I must say it. We can no more keep the commandments of Jesus (as in the Sermon on the Mount) than we can keep the law of Moses. In fact, it is much easier to keep the law of Moses than to keep the commandments of Jesus. Because Jesus made it infinitely more difficult for us. He wanted to erase any notion of our being able to "please" God with any work of our hands. Not only must we keep the laws of Moses ("These things [the laws of Moses] you should have done, but not have left the others [deeds of neighborly love] undone." James makes it clear that if we fail in fulfilling the smallest point of the law, we are guilty of breaking all of the laws. Galatians tells us that if we choose to put ourselves under law, we are responsible for EVERYTHING. There are some people who, like the Galatians, believe we start out by faith only in the saving work of Jesus Christ, but then. through God's help we are able to please God by keeping His commandments. As if faith is only to get us started, that it is not actually enough to get us to God's kingdom. Paul rebukes them mightily. God's grace (His divine mercy) is sufficient. Not only is it all we need, it is the answer to our every prayer, the perfect fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham. His grace is sufficient. We will never be able to offer Him anything but filthy rags righteousness in our flesh. The disciples asked Jesus, "What shall we do to do the work of God?" Jesus' response: "The work of God is this: to believe in the One Whom He has sent." This is our only hope. Believing in Jesus Christ, we, at once, have a robe of perfect righteousness to offer to God, forgiveness of all our sin, and the promise of eternal life. So any texts in the Bible that make promises to those who "keep the commandments" are fulfilled in Jesus Christ and to those whose trust abides in Him. Did Jesus perfectly fulfil all of the commandments? Of course He did. And when we are in Him, by faith, we have also fulfilled them all. Jesus Christ is our righteousness. To Him, and to Him only, be honor and glory and blessing forever. | ||
| Valm |
Patti, I wouldn't hate anyone for having a differing opinion. You are passionate in your opinions but not hateful to others. I agree wholeheartedly with you that we will all fall way way short of keeping any commandments of Jesus. But I will just keep on trying as I know that the closer I come to keeping them the more happiness I will have in this present life. I agree wholeheartedly that there is nothing I can do except claim Jesus as my righteousness, but I am motivated to do my best to honor God. Faith is not my jumpstart to acheive salvation, but it is a powerful motivater and force into being a better person. For example, I know those days I am really jazzed with my Bible study or worship life, challenging parenting issues seem almost effortless. The patience is just there where otherwise I would be struggling for it. It is just there. So I just think it comes to us (keeping the commandments of Jesus) as we allow the Spirit into our lives. I take living life more abundantly with a passion. I do not intend to wait for heaven to do it. I think that abundance comes from living a Spirit filled life and behaving as best as I can within Jesus' commandment to love one another. The later is a result of the former. With regards to that text. It has long been used by SDAs as proof to keeping the ten commandments and now I am finding out that John was talking entirely about something different than the ten commandments. Perhaps I did not articulate that well. I agree with Max, we are bought with a price. I am God's own. And I wish to behave accordingly out of my honor and respect to him. I don't entend to be his "brat". Also because it is a prooven formula for success in my relationships with people as well as it bestows peace in my life. Despite all of this there is this text that says there are people who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus. So what do you think they are keeping here Patti? Maybe they are keeping to the best of their ability? Maybe they are keeping them imperfectly? Maybe they are trying but are covered by Christs robe of righteousness? I am interested in how one reconicles this with the statement that no one can keep Gods commandments perfectly. This text also does not say that only those people will be in the kingdom. I don't know what do you think this all means? I just know that it certainly does not mean keeping the Mosaic law. Thank you for your opinions. And I could never hate you Patti. Valerie | ||
| Patti |
In Jesus Christ, we have perfectly fulfilled the commandments of God. Jesus' perfect lawkeeping is ours when we trust in Him. | ||
| Patti |
And I also could never hate you. You are very conciliatory and it is appreciated. My whole point, Val, is that there are unbelievers who are kind, considerate, loving, moral, upstanding people. In short, they have very strong characters. But salvation is not about character; it is about our salvation in Jesus Christ. Ellen White has one quotation that I believe bears repeating repeatedly J The essence of it is this: The closer we come to Christ the more sinful we appear in our own eyes. This causes me to question the testimony of one's regenerated character. If the more we see of Christ's perfect, the more unworthy we see ourselves, how could we possibly point others to our own righteousness? How could we "testify" to our filthy rags if the closer we come to Christ the more sinful we see ourselves? (I am having this same discussion with SDAs on another forum, BTW. Their focus, as the RCs, is on the changed life after justification and not the Source of our justification Himself, Jesus Christ. Do we try to live better and better every day? Of course we do. But this is not salvation. As I pointed out earlier, there are many athiests and nonbelievers who do also. Salvation is putting our whole trust that the righteousness of Jesus Christ is totally sufficient for us, and not thinking we can or must add something to this. Unlike every other religion on the face of the earth, Christianity is about salvation by the work of Another alone. Just as we had no part in working it out, so we have no part in its consummation. Salvation is God's great saving act from first to last. | ||
| Valm |
Patti, We certainly agree that it is Christ and only Christ that assure our salvation. But don't you think that basking in his love just naturally brings out the good in people? Don't you just really want to follow his comandments, example, and teachings because of what he did for you? I am not for sure that EGWs quote bears repeating for me, unless it is to show the inconsistency of what she is saying which as a reread what your are saying I think that is what your are wishing to do. I don't dwell on how sinful I appear. I just try to keep looking at Jesus and God's love. With that they can live in me and the more they live in me the better life gets everyday. This is not self righteousness, it is the allowance of the Holy Spirit to create miracles in my life. If I am a testimony of Christ to some, so be it I would be honored to be so. But it is only Christ in me not ME. I am not a dark theologian when it comes to people. I believe that God created us in HIS image and after his likeness. I believe that when living with the connection to him we do become more and more like him. It is not a matter of living on my laurels but allowing him to perform great things in my life. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Do we try to live better and better every day? Of course we do. But this is not salvation.^^ This is an interesting admission, Patti. And I agree with you. But not totally. Living as a Christian involves more than just an "of course" thing. It involves human effort -- striving and straining -- as well as rest. "Straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to in the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." Philippians 3:13-14 Paul strives, NOT so that he may gain salvation (he already has that), but "so that I may gain Christ." Philippians 3:8. Paul strives, NOT to attain perfect righteousness (he already has that), but "to attain to the resurrection from the dead." Philippians 3:1. Paul strives, not to get to heaven (he already has that), but because the Jesus he wants to see again in the flesh is there. Colossians 3:1-2. --MC | ||
| Therese |
Hi, I appreciated all the responses to my question on 1/6 of why the 4th commandment is viewed differently than the other 9. I didn't mean to imply that the churches that promote the 10 commandments do so as a means of salvation. They promote the keeping of the 10 commandments as a guide for christian living. They are not SDA churches (actually I've heard this in 2 non-denominational churches and from various TV and radio evangelicals). They teach both dimensions of the law -- literal and spiritual. My logic tells me that if the 10 commandments are a guide for christian living as these churches say, then keeping the 4th commandment in a literal way (keeping the 7th day holy by not working, etc.) and keeping it in a spiritual way (having salvation rest) is a guide for christian living and the right thing to do. If the law is totally gone and thrown out, how then do I know what sin is? How do I know that adultery is wrong or stealing is wrong? Are these behaviors not wrong? Are you telling me God does not care and does not find this behavior offensive? Without that knowledge of what is sin, I would probably follow situational ethics and have no absolute truth. Perhaps the keeping of the 7th day is done merely as a symbol of the salvational rest, like the last supper is a symbol of Jesus death? It doesn't save us in any sense, but is a ritual we follow to help us to understand and remind us of the spiritual truth it represents. I'm having a problem with the logic of "lawlessness". If I just follow the command of "Love one another", how do I know what love is and is not? Chyna your post was very good and I am studying it. Thanks, Therese | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Therese, You nor anyone else, can convince me that you don't know what is wrong and what is right. I'm fully convinced in my heart that people who steal, murder, rape, lie, etc., know exactly that they are doing wrong. They don't need to be looking at the 10 commandments written on some piece of board, nailed to a wall. The Law is written on our very hearts and in our minds. We all (myself included) know right from wrong. It was prophesied by Jeremiah Chapter 31:31-37. This was the new covenant prophesied through Jeremiah by God: "The time is coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a Husband to them." "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord, "I will put my law in their minds and write them on their hearts, I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'know the Lord,' because THEY WILL ALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST," declares the Lord. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." This is what the Lord says, He who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar- the Lord Almighty is His name: "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the Lord, "Will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me." This is what the Lord says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the fountains of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done," declares the Lord. Hebrews 8:6-13 is the new covenant if you would like to read it, Therese. Paul says in Romans 2:29 "No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, NOT BY THE WRITTEN CODE." And in 2 Corinthians 3:2-3 Paul says this: "You yourselves are our letter, WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS, known and read by everybody. verse 3 "You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, WRITTEN NOT WITH INK BUT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD, NOT ON TABLETS OF STONE BUT ON TABLETS OF HUMAN HEARTS." Why, even my cat knows when he's in trouble or a child knows. We ALL know when we have done wrong. Not that I believe my cat has the Spirit of God in him,,but then again, how do I know? I only know that animals like dogs, cats and the such know if they have done wrong. Keep in mind too, that the Law of love is not part of the 10 commandments. It is not in the 10 commandments of what everyone seems to think will be the answer to all our societal problems. The two greatest commandments that Jesus recites in the New Testament come from the book of the Law or Moses Law, not the 10 commandments that were written in the stone tablets, that sat inside the ark of the covenant. As to the Sabbath, it is also written in the Bible how some of us consider one day over another, yet to another man, he has a different day and yet still, to another, he considers all days alike. I'm hoping someone will put that Scripture up here as off hand, I cannot remember where it is. I do know that in Colossians 2:16 you will find Scripture pertaining to that very thing. Hmmm, maybe that is the Scripture I'm referring to. Anyhow, this is my opinion on these matters but there is Scripture to back them too. God Bless you in your journey as He is Blessing me, Denise, the one who is still learning too...:) As to the Foods and such, read Romans 14. Also, I'm sure that many here will help you with verses to these matters as well. Again, God Bless you richly! :) | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Therese, One more thing to be sure you did NOT misunderstand. The 'book of the Law or Moses Law' was OUTSIDE THE ARK, not inside. The tablets with only the 10 commandments were on the inside, under the mercy seat. God Bless you and your household, Denise |
