| Author | Message | ||
| Chuckiej |
Those of you who I first met on the "Heresies" thread know that I have lurked here for sometime, and that I refrained from posting b/c I have been praying for God to remove an argumentative spirit from me. So with regards to this issue, I beg leave to agree to disagree, b/c I seriously doubt that further argument will get us anywhere, and I'd hate to see things get ugly and this thread closed like the Heresies one. I'm not abandoning the Forum and I'm not angry with anyone. It's just that I recognize an impasse when I see one, and I don't want to drag things out. Chuck | ||
| Chyna |
Dear Chuck, Unlike the predestination thread, I do believe the majority on this forum believe that an indepth understanding of the role of the law in the Bible, and the role of Salvation clarify why we do not have to physically observe Sabbath. If you'll understand that you say that since you still want to Observe Sabbath you stay with the SDA church... which many FAFers will empathize with you because Sabbath was the last doctrinal issue they still clung to even when they thought they should leave SDAism. Observing the sabbath because you are saved is like continually looking backwards. The Sabbath was given so we would look forward to Salvation because we didn't have it yet. Cos, I have personally come to believe that Observing Sabbath = Homage to the Law (which we can never fulfill), and assembling on the Lord's Day = Homage to the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. So to observe Sabbath akin to the way Jewish people do in a way denies the full impact of Salvation. I would love to hear your testimony of how you became a Christian. Chyna | ||
| Loneviking |
O.K. Chuck, we'll agree to disagree, and disagree and disagree! :) The reason why SDA's don't fellowship with other christians and usually don't get along all that well with them comes right down to the SDA misunderstanding of the Old and New Covenants. Do yourself a favor and really study out this issue with an open mind.... Bill | ||
| Valm |
Dear Chuckiej, I am coming out of lurking mode to say I hope you are feeling better and to wish you God's Blessings. Since we all agree that the Sabbath is not a test of salvation I encourage you to enjoy your Sabbath Day's observance while resting in Jesus as the assurance of your salvation. If and when God leads you to do otherwise, blessings on that journey also. I agree with a post mentioning that there are many people who God may be using within the SDA church to a true understanding of resting in Jesus. And perhaps that is your calling. The emotional ties to SDAism are extremely strong. And to stay for these can not necessarily be viewed as being untrue to God or your own beliefs. For some this means not breaking up a family with young children or could mean not emotionally devastating an elderly member on their death bed. Who know's? You know your circumstances and only you can take an honest assesment of what would be the best thing to do. I find your posts refreshing and wished I could adapt the calm you seem to have to agree to disagree. That is what I am learning now, to have that calm during conflict. I will go back into occassional lurking mode. I do not know why I turned on FAF this AM as I haven't since Sat morning. But I just want to let you know I appreciate you and wish you many of God's Blessings today. Valerie | ||
| Doug222 |
Greetings all, I would like to join in this discussion with a question. I have read Galations 4 and understand that Paul is teling the Galation Christians that they are not to forsake their freedom by being placed under the bondage of the Law of Moses. I will even concede that the Law of Moses included the ten commandments--although I agree with those that say the commandments were not so much done away with as we were called to a higher law. But anyway, my question is, can you show me scripturally why Christians should keep Sunday (as Chyna suggested) as opposed to Sabbath. Hopefully my questin is clear. If not I'll be happy to explain later, but right now I'm late for work. Thank you. Doug | ||
| Chuckiej |
Hey Valerie! Good to see you! I can understand your lurking. If you want to contact me, you can write me at cjake@cinci.rr.com (that goes for everybody). Hey, all. I'm a law student and to a certain extent, that has affected how I look at things. I don't think it's possible to look at anything totally objectively: we all bring our biases to the table. To cure that, I study all sides of a given argument. Sorta like a "cross examination." Certain points get rebutted effectively, others don't. Whichever side is left standing is the one I go with. I ask for the Holy Spirit's guidance in this process of course. I started my study of the covenants before I heard the names of Ratzlaff or Bacchiocchi, during the time I seriously studied the Word with my college roomate (see below). Hebrews is my favorite book of the NT outside of the Gospels. When I found that people had jumped into this issue and done a lot of work on it, I read their books. No need to re-invent the wheel. I've read Ratzlaff, Bacchiocchi, Messianic Jews, Rolaant MacKenzie and others. As I've said, I've lurked here for a while and seen many of your arguments. Some of the arguments on the "To Our Adventist Friends" board have struck me as patently ridiculous, others gave me food for thought. Likewise, I don't buy everything Bacchiocchi says. Nevertheless, the balance of the evidence has led me to continue to be a Sabbatarian. As for my story of how I became a Christian. . . I was baptized at age 6. I had been coming to church with my mom and sis since I was a shorty. I was that kid that memorized the Ten Commandments, Third Angels Message, and all those other scriptures. Anyway, to be honest, I don't remember what triggered my decision to get baptized. I mean, I did it b/c I loved Jesus, but I don't think there was a specific catalyst. So from that time on, I was pretty active in the church and going to an SDA school. I went to public high school and did a little rebelling, which was part of the reason my mom sent me to an SDA college. It was my senior year, and I was rooming with one of my co-workers named Troy. We had only known each other casually before. However, it was amazing how much we had in common, from family circumstances, to experiences with women to views about God. Anyway, each Friday night we would study the Word together and I got a deeper understanding of grace and rightousness by faith than I ever had before. This was the point in time that I discussed before, when my sister and I were coming to this understanding separately, but at the same time. The result of this was that I knew Jesus as a person like I never did before. He's my friend. Also, I don't have any anxiety about being lost like I occasionally did before. I am very thankful for Troy, and for my sister for being there to help me on my journey, and bringing me to a fuller understanding of God's love. | ||
| Jtree |
I hear SDA's continually crying, "Sunday is the pope's day." They tell people that it was the pope who started the observance of the first day of the week; that the Sabbath was observed by all Christians until the pope's time; and that it was he who changed the keeping of days from the seventh to the first. Almost all Sabbatarians are ignorantly led into this belief, and they are constantly heard to affirm that those who observe the Lord's Day are keeping the pope's dayó"a heathen day, the venerable day of the sun, " etc. Such talk betrays great ignorance to the enlightened and informed. We have but to attend to the evidences in the case to prove that this is all assumption The united testimony of the early Christian church, centuries before there was a pope elected, proves that the first day of the week was regularly observed as a memorial and sacred day. I do not quote those early church writers to prove a doctrine (I go to the Bible for that); but I simply quote them to prove a historical fact; namely, that the early Christians did keep Sunday as a sacred day. A. D. 30óTHE RESURRECTION DAY "And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem' and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, saying, The Lord is risen indeed" (Luke 24:33, 34). This was the first day of the week, the day on which Christ arose (see John 20:19). "And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you" (Luke 24:36). ONE WEEK LATER, OR THE NEXT SUNDAY "And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them; then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you" (John 20:26). PENTECOSTóACTS 2 The feast of Pentecost was on the "morrow after the seventh sabbath" Lev. 23:15,16. That would be the first day of the week. "And when the Day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place" Acts 2:1. "The number of names together were about an hundred and twenty" (Acts 1:15). A. D. 59óACTS 20:6,7 "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them." 1 COR. 16:1, 2 "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." A. D. 96óREV. 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day." A. D. 107 ó PLINY'S LETTER Pliny wrote to Trajan concerning the Christians: "They were wont to meet together, on a stated day before it was light, and sang among themselves alternately a hymn to Christ as God." óHome's Introduction (vol. 1, chap. 3, sec. 2, p. 84). Early in the morning the Christians ssembled "before it was light." These meetings were on ascertain stated day." On what day were the early: morning meetings held? Eusebius the historian answers: "By this is prophetically signified the service which is performed very early and every morning of the resurrection day throughout the whole world." óSabbath Manual (p. 125). The day on which Christ rose was the "stated day" on which the Christians met for worship. Pliny was governor of Bithynia, Asia Minor, A.D. 106-108. This was the very place where the apostles labored, and the time only eleven years after John died. A. D. 120óBARNABAS This epistle was highly prized in the earliest churches, and is found in the oldest manuscript of the Scriptures; namely, the Sinaitic. Elder Andrews, a Seventh day Adventist, admits that the Epistle of Barnabas "was in existence as early as the middle of the second century, and, like the 'Apostolic Constitutions,' is of value to us in that it gives some clue to the opinions which prevailed in the region where the writer lived."óTestimony of the Fathers (p. 21). "The epistle is believed to have been written early in the second century."óSmith's Dictionary of the Bible. "This work is unanimously ascribed to Barnabas, the companion of St. Paul, by early Christian writers.... But the great majority of critics assign it to the reign of Hadrian sometime between 119 and 126 A. D."óEncyclopedia Brittanica. "The epistle was probably written in Alexandria at the beginning of the second century and by a Gentile Christian."óSchaff Herzog Encyclopedia. It "is supposed by Hefele to have been written between 107-120 A. D." óJohnson's New Universal Cyclopedia. This is a summary of the best modern criticism as to the date, character, and authority of the Epistle of Barnabas. Read and reverenced in the church as early as A. D. 120, or within twenty four years of the death of John, it shows what Christians believed and practiced immediately after the apostles. In this epistle we read, "Incense is a vain abomination unto me, and your new moons and sabbaths I cannot endure. He has, therefore, abolished these things" (chap. 2). Coming to the first day of the week, Barnabas says: "Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day, also, on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (chap. 15). Will the Adventists say that there was a pope in A. D. 120? Hardly. Yet the Christians kept the resurrection day with joyfulness. A. D. 125óTHE TEACHING OF THE APOSTLES "But every Lord's Day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving" (chap. 14). Notice how this harmonizes with Acts 20 6, 7. "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread." A. D. 140óJUSTIN MARTYR Justin Martyr wrote about forty four years after John died. He held his "Dialog with Trypho" at Ephesus Asia Minor, in the church where St. John lived and died. His first defense of the Christian religion is addressed to the emperor Antoninus Verus. the introduction to his writings in the "Ante Nicene Library" the writer says, 'The first class embraces those which are unquestionably genuine; viz., the two A p ol o g i e a, and the Dialog with Trypho." In Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, which is the first historical work written after the close of the inspired record is found a statement of the books of Justin that had come down to Eusebius' time. Says the historian (Book 4 chap. 18), "Another work comprising a defense of our faith, which he addressed to the emperor of the same name, Antoninus Verus." Here the genuineness of this work of Justin's is established beyond the shadow of a doubt. "Before his conversion to God he studied in the schools of philosophy." "The writings of Justin Martyr are among the most important that have come down to us from the second century."óAnte Nicene Library. He speaks to us from the first half of the second century We quote from his first defense or apology, which #e have seen is acknowledged by Eusebius' Ancient History The head of this article isó "Chapter 67. The weekly worship of the Christians. "And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets re read as long as time permits. "And they who are well to do, and willing, give what Each thinks fit: andwhat is collected is deposited with the president, who succors the orphans and widows, and those, who through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds, and the: strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is, the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For he was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday), and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." You perceive that Justin describes the weekly Worship of the early church just as Paul directed, on Sunday, or the first day of the week, in 1 Corinthians 16. Joshua of the Rock | ||
| Darrell |
Joshua, in the original Greek New Testement the phrase translated "first day of the week" literally says "first of (after) the sabbath". This shows that they were still measuring the days of the week relative to the sabbath, which weakens your argument that these references to sunday imply that they were observing sunday as a special day of worship instead of sabbath. Just some food for thought. The post apostolic references are interesting, though. | ||
| Violet |
Personally I am at the point of believing you do not have to observe any "day". That your rest is in Jesus. Yesterday my husband said,"if God is leading someone to observe the Sabbath so be it" (he was not talking in relation to salvation only the enjoyment of the day) I though to myself why would God do that. It then came to me that for some people if they did not observe the Sabbath they would have no family time. They would work 7 days a week and be away from thier family. If the Sabbath is the way God deals with that then so be it. Let them enjoy it. As long as we all agree it is not for salvation, but pleasure. | ||
| Chuckiej |
Joshua - Bacchiocchi pointed out many of the things you stated. In doing so he contradicted the SDA's long-term stance that the pope changed the Sabbath. That's what started all the talk about him being a Jesuit spy and all that nonsense. However, the practices of the "Church Fathers" were not uniform throughout the Church. Justin Martyr condemns the Nazarenes and Ebionites as heretics for the Sabbath among other things, which only proves that some Christians were keeping the Sabbath. The characterization as "heretics" is entirely subjective. Furthermore, the 5th century historian Socrates wrote that Christians celebrated the "sacred mysteries" on the Sabbath everywhere except for Rome and Alexandria. According to 4th century historian Sozomen, Christians in Constantinople observed both days. The anti-Semitism in Rome, and the local Church's desire to separate themselves from Judaism is well documented. That eighth day qoute is a laugher, since the part about Sabbath and offerings is taken (out of context) from Isaiah, which probably has more exhortations to keep the Sabbath properly than any OT book outside the Pentateuch. What God is saying is that the outward forms are useless if the heart is unregenerate. This is in line with Jesus' telling the Pharisees that they are whited-sepulchures, but inside are full of dead men's bones and uncleaness (Matt. 23:27). | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Doug222 and Chuckie too, Hey, that sounded like Scooby Doo and Scrappy Too! I'm not the theological type, but, I am the type that likes to explain, in words, my view within the Biblical guidelines as I see them. As to the Sabbath. First, I am/was a 3rd generation SDA. I left for a few reasons in about 1976 at 18. The biggest one was that I was REQUIRED to wear a dress all the time. This included climbing trees, cutting wood, horseback riding, rockclimbing and most detestably, going through barbed wire fences. (You aught to try that;-)! When I was 18 and left all religion and tossing God in the process, I went into shock. The reason for that was that I had not been allowed to go to school, not even SDA school since the 2nd month of 3rd grade. Schooling wasn't high on my mom's list as the end was so near. I didn't even have approved Home School courses! Just junk store books that I could buy for a dime. As you (Chuckie) indicated, you look at things in your own special way. The reason I mentioned my greatly abbreviated experience is so you understand that I too, look at things differently. I never did experience peer pressure that in turn dictates a persons outlook so many times. Anyway......Adam and Eve had a personal, one on one relationship with God in the Garden of Eden. I believe that God walked with them and they enjoyed each other's company as Creator and created. I believe that they would have maintained that relationship with God for eternity, had they NOT sinned. What happened after they sinned? They noticed that they were naked and tried to hide from God. Their relationship, as they has previously experienced it, was SEVERED. You know the story, all kinds of sacrifices and offerings were then instituted to bridge that sin caused separation. Till the time of Christ death, those various ceremonies were observed as you know. I will use the New King James, though I prefer the NIV and NASB. Exo. 19:5-6 5"Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6ëAnd you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.í These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.î In my mind, God is clearly cutting the Israelites from the rest of the people on His earth. Exo. 31:12-18 12 "And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13'Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ëSurely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 14ëYou shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15ëWork shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16ëTherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17ëIt is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.í î18And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God." Notice that God said this was a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant, a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever. In the context, as I see it, this is ONLY between God and His, cut out from the other nations, Israelites. In short, all this was pointing to something. What was that? The perfect sacrifice, the perfect Lamb of God. I really want to keep this short as one could hit many point and a zillion verses, bogging down what is a very clear concept to me. So, fastforwarding... Matt. 5:17-18 17ìDo not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18ìFor assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." John 19:28-30 28"After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, ìI thirst!î 29Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, ìIt is finished!î And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit." We all know that the law was NOT perfectly kept by "God's" people. They failed miserably. With the Israelites, the Law DID remain UN-fulfilled. We all know that when Jesus came to this earth, He DID "perfectly" keep the whole law. With Jesus, the Law WAS fulfilled. I am obviously not a Greek scholar! But in looking in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, and checking the word number's that go with the above passages in Matt. and John relating to "fulfill/fulfilled/accomplished/finished," they all "seem" to be used synonymously. Let's take a look at the Transfiguration. Matt. 17:1-5 1 "Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, ìLord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.î 5While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, ìThis is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!î6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. 7But Jesus came and touched them and said, ìArise, and do not be afraid.î 8When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. Think about this.....Moses and Elijah were commonly called the Law and the Prophets. What happened to the Law and the Prophets? They evaporated! What did God say? Very clearly, He said, HEAR MY SON. Now, what did His Son say? Matt. 22:36-38 36ìTeacher, which is the great commandment in the law?î 37Jesus said to him, ì ëYou shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.í 38ìThis is the first and great commandment. 39ìAnd the second is like it: ëYou shall love your neighbor as yourself.í 40ìOn these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.î Mark 12:29-31 29Jesus answered him, ìThe first of all the commandments is: ëHear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30ëAnd you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.í This is the first commandment. 31ìAnd the second, like it, is this: ëYou shall love your neighbor as yourself.í There is no other commandment greater than these.î Since the Law and the Prophets are hinged upon the above great and greatest commandments and they evaporated, what are we left with? Love the Lord youGod with all your soul and mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself. Remember what happened to the tabernacle curtain when Jesus died? It was ripped from top to bottom. That happened to the Holy and Most Holy Place? They became one. Heb. 9:11-12 11"But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption." Now, what is the tabernacle not made with hands? Heb. 11:24 24"For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;" I understand this to say that heaven itself, it is God's presence. Heb. 7:25 25"Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. You see, it is all about HIM. Now, how is He able to save you to the uttermost? John 3:14-18 14ìAnd as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15ìthat whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16ìFor God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17ìFor God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18ìHe who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 5:24 24ìMost assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." To me, this says that to be saved to the uttermost, one simply MUST believe. I never did see a place where there was a, "yehbut" you must keep the Sabbath or not eat certain foods etc etc. What did John the Baptist say when he saw Jesus? John 1:29 29"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, ìBehold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" To my uneducated mind, that says "sin" not sins and tells me there is only one "sin" and that is the sin of unbelief. For myself, this establishes that we are saved by grace and grace alone with NO "yehbuts" along the way. Luke 6:5 5"And He said to them, ìThe Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath." Heb. 4:1:11 1"Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: ìSo I swore in My wrath, ëThey shall not enter My rest,í î although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: ìAnd God rested on the seventh day from all His worksî; 5and again in this place: ìThey shall not enter My rest.î 6Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7again He designates a certain day, saying in David, ìToday,î after such a long time, as it has been said: ìToday, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.î 8For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. 11Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience." I believe with all my heart and soul and mind that my undertanding of this is Biblical. Now that we have our Savior that has saved to the uttermost, those that believe, we have entered that eternal Sabbath rest from out own works. We are, by faith, in the same one on one relationship whith God that Adam and Eve had before they sinned. If someone says that we should be "Keeping Sunday," I'm afraid that I would have to disagree with them!!! We are to live every day unto the Lord. Every day is another day in our eternal Sabbath that was bought and paid in full by the birth, perfect life, death, resurrection, ascention and the sitting forever at the right hand of God by Jesus. I'm sorry this got so long, but, this is what came out of the ends of my finger's. (You should see what I didn't write!;-) Maryann=DTC=Deeded To Christ=IBC=Insured By Christ PS...Don't even think for one minute that we may live like the devil that grace may abound. That is another subject, anther time! | ||
| Chyna |
Dear Chuck, I noticed that you didn't say that you became saved, rather you started the point of your spiritual journey with "I was baptized" (joined the SDA church). I just want to make sure you know that being baptised isn't becoming saved. Baptism is only the public declaration of a personal decision to follow God. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
Darrell, Measuring the week by which day is which number doesn't change the fact that they chose to gather on the first day of the week, Sunday. Culturally yes, the first Christians were Jews, so I'm sure they adhered to the old system of which day was which number. anyway, the underlying scripture to all of this is found in: "Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? . . . One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let everyone be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it in honour of the Lord." (Rom. 14:4-6) meaning you can gather to worship God on anyday, not just Sabbath, and not to judge someone that doesn't choose Sabbath. Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
Is the Sabbath Binding on Christians Today? by John MacArthur It is believed that the Old Testament regulations governing Sabbath observances are ceremonial, not moral, aspects of the law. As such, they are no longer in force, but have passed away along with the sacrificial system, the Levitical priesthood, and all other aspects of Moses' law that prefigured Christ. Here are the reasons we hold this view. 1. In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul explicitly refers to the Sabbath as a shadow of Christ, which is no longer binding since the substance (Christ) has come. It is quite clear in those verses that the weekly Sabbath is in view. The phrase "a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day" refers to the annual, monthly, and weekly holy days of the Jewish calendar (cf. 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4; 31:3; Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:11). If Paul were referring to special ceremonial dates of rest in that passage, why would he have used the word "Sabbath?" He had already mentioned the ceremonial dates when he spoke of festivals and new moons. 2. The Sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic Covenant. 3. The New Testament never commands Christians to observe the Sabbath. 4. In our only glimpse of an early church worship service in the New Testament, the church met on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7). 5. Nowhere in the Old Testament are the Gentile nations commanded to observe the Sabbath or condemned for failing to do so. That is certainly strange if Sabbath observance were meant to be an eternal moral principle. 6. There is no evidence in the Bible of anyone keeping the Sabbath before the time of Moses, nor are there any commands in the Bible to keep the Sabbath before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai. 7. When the Apostles met at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), they did not impose Sabbath keeping on the Gentile believers. 8. The apostle Paul warned the Gentiles about many different sins in his epistles, but breaking the Sabbath was never one of them. 9. In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul rebukes the Galatians for thinking God expected them to observe special days (including the Sabbath). 10. In Romans 14:5, Paul forbids those who observe the Sabbath (these were no doubt Jewish believers) to condemn those who do not (Gentile believers). 11. The early church fathers, from Ignatius to Augustine, taught that the Old Testament Sabbath had been abolished and that the first day of the week (Sunday) was the day when Christians should meet for worship (contrary to the claim of many seventh-day sabbatarians who claim that Sunday worship was not instituted until the fourth century). 12. Sunday has not replaced Saturday as the Sabbath. Rather the Lord's Day is a time when believers gather to commemorate His resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week. Every day to the believer is one of Sabbath rest, since we have ceased from our spiritual labor and are resting in the salvation of the Lord (Hebrews 4:9-11). So while we still follow the pattern of designating one day of the week a day for the Lord's people to gather in worship, we do not refer to this as "the Sabbath." John Calvin took a similar position. He wrote, There were three reasons for giving this [fourth] commandment: First, with the seventh day of rest the Lord wished to give to the people of Israel an image of spiritual rest, whereby believers must cease from their own works in order to let the Lord work in them. Secondly, he wished that there be an established day in which believers might assemble in order to hear his Law and worship him. Thirdly, he willed that one day of rest be granted to servants and to those who live under the power of others so that they might have a relaxation from their labor. The latter, however, is rather an inferred than a principal reason. As to the first reason, there is no doubt that it ceased in Christ; because he is the truth by the presence of which all images vanish. He is the reality at whose advent all shadows are abandoned. Hence St. Paul (Col. 2:17) affirms that the sabbath has been a shadow of a reality yet to be. And he declares else-where its truth when in the letter to the Romans, ch. 6:8, he teaches us that we are buried with Christ in order that by his death we may die to the corruption of our flesh. And this is not done in one day, but during all the course of our life, until altogether dead in our own selves, we may be filled with the life of God. Hence, superstitious observance of days must remain far from Christians. The two last reasons, however, must not be numbered among the shadows of old. Rather, they are equally valid for all ages. Hence, though the sabbath is abrogated, it so happens among us that we still convene on certain days in order to hear the word of God, to break the [mystic] bread of the Supper, and to offer public prayers; and, moreover, in order that some relaxation from their toil be given to servants and workingmen. As our human weakness does not allow such assemblies to meet every day, the day observed by the Jews has been taken away (as a good device for eliminating superstition) and another day has been destined to this use. This was necessary for securing and maintaining order and peace in the Church. As the truth therefore was given to the Jews under a figure, so to us on the contrary truth is shown without shadows in order, first of all, that we meditate all our life on a perpetual sabbath from our works so that the Lord may operate in us by his spirit; secondly, in order that we observe the legitimate order of the Church for listening to the word of God, for admin-istering the sacraments, and for public prayers; thirdly, in order that we do not oppress inhumanly with work those who are subject to us. [From Instruction in Faith, Calvin's own 1537 digest of the Institutes, sec. 8, "The Law of the Lord"]. For further study: D.A. Carson, ed., From Sabbath to Lord's Day (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1982). | ||
| Doug222 |
Mary Ann Thanks for your clearly worded response. Thank you to everyone else who responded as well. The on thing I noticed is that many people brought in extrabiblical material to support their position. Isn't this the same thing that we accuse SDA's of? From the clear word of scripture, it seems difficult to support the position that Sunday has any significance as a day of worship. It appears to have been evolved as a "tradition of men." MacArthur's supposition that the fourth commandment was considered ceremonial, and therefore was done away with while the moral law continues to stand, also does not seem to be supported by scripture. Based on my study so far (and I will readily admit that it is limited), it appears that if anything, the entire law of Moses was replaced at the cross by the Royal Law of Liberty. That being the case, the whole discussion of Sunday vs. Saturday should be a mute point....but it isn't and that disturbs me. Some people continue to point out that Sunday is the "Lord's Day" and therefore has special significance over other days. I have yet to see that supported by scripture, but I still have an open mind. Thanks again for everyone's responses | ||
| Chuckiej |
Hey Chyna, You asked when I became a Christian. I decided to follow Christ at age 6, which is why I got baptized sorry if I didn't make that clear. I came to a much deeper understanding of what it means to be a Christian in my college years. But the decision to follow Christ, wherever that journey would take me, was made when I was baptized. Re Chyna's long post: once again, I'll spare everyone the going around the same circles of the stock arguments on both sides regarding those scriptural passages, or the ones that are advanced by Sabbathkeepers. See ya'll tomorrow Chuck | ||
| Chyna |
Chuck, I just wanted to make sure that you had decided to follow Jesus in that moment when you were six. Dear Doug, the reason why extrabiblical evidence is brought up is the same reason we get excited when archaelogical digs confirm what the Old Testament says. It's the same reason why sometimes we refer to historical and cultural notes in our Study Bibles to understand the passage better. Think of the writings of the early fathers as one big study note that says "SDAs are lying when they tell you that the Pope changed Saturday to Sunday, that the early church DID NOT worship on Saturday contrary to Sabbatarians beliefs." It doesn't matter if you believe it. Think of it as pieces of the puzzle. Actually, just wait and see how your understanding of Sabbath evolves in the next few months while you study God's work outside of EGW and the SDA influences. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Shereen |
Can anyone tell me of a good Bible online? | ||
| Lori |
I'll add my thoughts to the subject of "the day"! I don't "keep" anyday. I don't "keep" Saturday and I don't "keep" Sunday. This is a ritual. The reality is Christ. I "keep" Christ. Christ is my eternal rest. Adam and Eve had eternal rest in the garden. This eternal rest was not available until after the death of Christ on the cross. Before the cross, Israel had the ritual "rest" they looked forward to the "eternal rest". We have that "eternal rest", we no longer need the ritual rest for the reality of that eternal rest has been completed. It is not about a day. It is about the person of Jesus Christ. I don't know very many people that "assemble on Sunday to worship God" that "keep" Sunday. If they do "keep" Sunday and think it is a requirement for salvation then they are in as much error as Adventist who "keep" Saturday in the same manner. The whole idea that we "have to have a day of rest to recuperate from the week" is the quintessence of ignorance!!! Can you go 6 entire days without rest?? Then rest up on the 7th. NO! The human body can not go six days without rest. We rest about 6-8 hours every 24 hour period. We don't need the Sabbath for physical rest! We have to have physical rest every day. Another point: When the Sabbath was set aside for Israel is was for the purpose of showing them. "You can do nothing to save yourself, I am providing everything you need. Remember this: You can do nothing to save yourself" However, Adventism has turned this "You can do nothing to save yourself day" into "This is the thing YOU CAN DO to save yourself" There was nothing arrogant about Israels Sabbath keeping, it was a day that you saw no one but your family, you were not allowed to leave your tent. Your food was provided already and everything else you needed was already prepared for the "I will do nothing today". My Sabbath day as an Adventist was probably the hardest day of the week. It was hard work to get a child up and ready to go to church, fix yourself up better than any other regular day, get to S.S. and help in the childrens division, try to find the person who is having special music and do one last practice, rush into the sanctuary because you are late from practicing special music, hurriedly get your music in order and begin the call to worship. You make it through the offertory and special music and breathe a sigh of relief. You are distracted all during the sermon by trying to keep your two year old quiet enough so you can remain in the auditorium. You almost make it but then have to ask someone to take him out right before the closing song (which you have to play). You play music until the last people leave the auditorium, gather your things and find the person who has your child. Thank them profusely for their help. Juggle all the stuff and the child back out to the car, you spot someone who will "sing" you get their attention and try to pin them down for one special music that month, you make arrangements to meet one day to practice. You finally get into the car and drive home, your feet hurt from standing in them in high heel shoes, your child is hungry and they want to watch TV. You are trying to keep them entertained without electronics. They can't go play with the kid down the street this would be unholy on the Sabbath. They are bored, you are exhausted. They want to go for a walk, you want to take a nap. You are tired and hungry that evening. It's been a hard days work keeping the Sabbath. You'd like to go out to dinner so you won't have to cook and clean up, but you have to wait for the sun to go down. It's 6pm the kids and you are starving, your non-Adventist spouse wants to go to eat NOW, but the sun doesn't go down until 7pm. You rationalize a solution to this problem by saying just a minute I have to do one more thing which places your arrival at the restaurant around 6:30, you get your food and eat but you don't have to "pay" until after the sun goes down!!! Mission accomplished--you have made it through another "Sabbath day of rest" and you are so glad that the next day is Sunday so you can sleep in and rest up from the long hard week you just made it through. Sound familiar?? Which day was really my "day of rest"??? Truth is I never had a day of spiritual or physical rest, until I claimed Christ as my "eternal rest". Yes, I slept in on Sunday morning,but then I got up and did housework that didn't get done the day before. But with Christ every day is a day of rest. I have made the decision to be "pre-occupied" with the person of Christ Jesus. When you become "pre-occupied" with Christ you are perpetually in a state of rest. This is the reality that Christ calls us to. The scriptures "rest" has never been about a day, not even with Israel, it's not about a "day" it's about a person-Jesus Christ!!! Claim Him as "your rest" and then assemble with others to worship on whatever day you like because the day doesn't matter. | ||
| Jtree |
Shereen, a good one I found is http://www.bible.org (By the Dallas Theological Seminary). I hope this helps. |
