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Maryann
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 12:26 pm: |     |
Hi Hannah and Sammi and All,
In my unsuccessful search for Lori's beautiful testimony of her "wonderful, patient husband," I found this jewel;-)) It fits quite well in this thread's converstaion.
LORI.....I hope you don't mind me picking out some of your post's and re-posting them. At least I'm not palagerizing them...ggggggg
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By Lori on Thursday, March 8, 2001 - 07:27 am:
I'll add my thoughts to the subject of "the day"!
I don't "keep" anyday. I don't "keep" Saturday and I don't "keep" Sunday. This is a ritual. The reality is Christ. I "keep" Christ. Christ is my eternal rest. Adam and Eve had eternal rest in the garden. This eternal rest was not available until after the death of Christ on the cross. Before the cross, Israel had the ritual "rest" they looked forward to the "eternal rest". We have that "eternal rest", we no longer need the ritual rest for the reality of that eternal rest has been completed.
It is not about a day. It is about the person of Jesus Christ.
I don't know very many people that "assemble on Sunday to worship God" that "keep" Sunday. If they do "keep" Sunday and think it is a requirement for salvation then they are in as much error as Adventist who "keep" Saturday in the same manner.
The whole idea that we "have to have a day of rest to recuperate from the week" is the quintessence of ignorance!!! Can you go 6 entire days without rest?? Then rest up on the 7th. NO! The human body can not go six days without rest. We rest about 6-8 hours every 24 hour period. We don't need the Sabbath for physical rest! We have to have physical rest every day.
Another point: When the Sabbath was set aside for Israel is was for the purpose of showing them. "You can do nothing to save yourself, I am providing everything you need. Remember this: You can do nothing to save yourself"
However, Adventism has turned this "You can do nothing to save yourself day" into "This is the thing YOU CAN DO to save yourself" There was nothing arrogant about Israels Sabbath keeping, it was a day that you saw no one but your family, you were not allowed to leave your tent. Your food was provided already and everything else you needed was already prepared for the "I will do nothing today".
My Sabbath day as an Adventist was probably the hardest day of the week. It was hard work to get a child up and ready to go to church, fix yourself up better than any other regular day, get to S.S. and help in the childrens division, try to find the person who is having special music and do one last practice, rush into the sanctuary because you are late from practicing special music, hurriedly get your music in order and begin the call to worship. You make it through the offertory and special music and breathe a sigh of relief. You are distracted all during the sermon by trying to keep your two year old quiet enough so you can remain in the auditorium. You almost make it but then have to ask someone to take him out right before the closing song (which you have to play). You play music until the last people leave the auditorium, gather your things and find the person who has your child. Thank them profusely for their help. Juggle all the stuff and the child back out to the car, you spot someone who will "sing" you get their attention and try to pin them down for one special music that month, you make arrangements to meet one day to practice. You finally get into the car and drive home, your feet hurt from standing in them in high heel shoes, your child is hungry and they want to watch TV. You are trying to keep them entertained without electronics. They can't go play with the kid down the street this would be unholy on the Sabbath. They are bored, you are exhausted. They want to go for a walk, you want to take a nap.
You are tired and hungry that evening. It's been a hard days work keeping the Sabbath. You'd like to go out to dinner so you won't have to cook and clean up, but you have to wait for the sun to go down. It's 6pm the kids and you are starving, your non-Adventist spouse wants to go to eat NOW, but the sun doesn't go down until 7pm. You rationalize a solution to this problem by saying just a minute I have to do one more thing which places your arrival at the restaurant around 6:30, you get your food and eat but you don't have to "pay" until after the sun goes down!!! Mission accomplished--you have made it through another "Sabbath day of rest" and you are so glad that the next day is Sunday so you can sleep in and rest up from the long hard week you just made it through. Sound familiar??
Which day was really my "day of rest"???
Truth is I never had a day of spiritual or physical rest, until I claimed Christ as my "eternal rest". Yes, I slept in on Sunday morning,but then I got up and did housework that didn't get done the day before. But with Christ every day is a day of rest. I have made the decision to be "pre-occupied" with the person of Christ Jesus. When you become "pre-occupied" with Christ you are perpetually in a state of rest. This is the reality that Christ calls us to. The scriptures "rest" has never been about a day, not even with Israel, it's not about a "day" it's about a person-Jesus Christ!!!
Claim Him as "your rest" and then assemble with others to worship on whatever day you like because the day doesn't matter.
Lori |
Windmotion
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 7:23 pm: | |
Things are taking a steady dip downward in my life. My husband, David, now considers himself somewhere between agnostic and atheistic in his beliefs. Because he cannot reconcile SDA and what he calls "my version" of Christianity, he tends to think none of it is true. He says he doesnt feel the power of God in his life. If there is a God it's God's fault not his fault. He is a chronically heavy drinker and only goes to church (on Sunday)when he is in a particularly good mood. Im not sure but I may have prefered him as a seventh-day Adventist. My own church attendance I confess is slacking off because I hate going to church by myself. I imagine people all around feeling sorry for me. We have never stuck around at one church long enough to get to know really any people. We have only been married about a year and a half. He liked Clay Peck's testimony incidentally. I'm just feeling really frustrated right now. |
Allenette
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 8:28 pm: | |
Well, Clay Peck was apparently raised as a very severe SDA PK. As was I without the dubious rewards of being "Royalty". For some kids the rewards are plenty if you tow the party line, for others, you can only hold up to that kind of unreality for just so long. His father did a lot of damage during his years of coming up thru the SDA hierarchy forcing his nutso views on the pastors he ended up being the commissar of. A friend of mine (a nearly mortally wounded "soldier"/pastor is writing a book about his years in the Gestapo/er...SDA. It appears that "what goes around comes around" since his father was shifted to ALaska and lost his Conference President job there. It is sad to know about the damage done by incompetents in religion who in the real world would hardly justify a supervisory position in a factory!!! But it happens all the time in religion/SDA!
Too bad. I cant change it but I will attempt to expose it at any time possible. |
Sammi
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 9:28 am: | |
Windmotion: I'm so sorry for what you're experiencing, just want you to know there are others praying for you. All I can say, from my own experience, is to focus on Jesus and His love for you and complete, unconditional acceptance of you. You don't have to be attending a church or have any "version" of Christianity to read His word, pray, and focus on Him. In fact, I believe that is the key, to leave behind all the SDAism, as well as other doctrines and ideas, and keep your eyes on Him. Don't know if that helps at all based on where you're at, but I don't have any answers or know any other way than to let everything else go and let Him lead. Also, does your husband get any kind of professional help? Everyone's experience is different, and perhaps I was an exception, but professional help for me with drinking and other issues opened my eyes to a lot of other things as well and actually helped me see clearly the legalism I'd grown up in and how it was affecting my view of God and the gospel.
Maryann, thanks for your recent posts (Lori too!) - they're so encouraging. I'm still so wishy-washy about the Sabbath, and lean towards it not being an issue, but then question if I just want the "easy way," which is what I've heard others say to those who question. It sure would make my life easier if I didn't feel an obligation for the Sabbath, and it would remove the mixed messages I'm sure I'm sending my kids. I'm honest with them about what I believe, and we don't keep the Sabbath like most SDAs. Basically we attend church and don't work, but as far as eating out, watching TV, going to a birthday party, etc. etc. we're different. But I know the message I send is mixed, because when the kids do something I know my SDA friends wouldn't approve of but I'm OK with, I go out of my way to keep them (the SDAs) from knowing, and I get caught sometimes (with my kids) with the fact I'm hiding it. I know it seems absurd to think that we get hit over the head with wanting the "easy way," and that right there should tell me something, but it still worries me!
Is the person called "Max" still around? I'm just curious as I enjoy reading him very much, and haven't seen anything from him in a while. Someone brought up rapture on another thread recently, and not much was said about it. I would have enjoyed reading his (Max's) views on that, as well as Nate's. But I know Nate has a lot going on right now and needs to focus on other things rather than write a sermon about the rapture! Anyway, maybe sometime.
Thanks again all of you - I'm enjoying this forum. Do any of the FAF ladies ever gather together for a women's retreat or anything? If I could afford it I'd love to meet some of you. Right now I'm really trying to be careful about who I am (on this forum,) and someday will be able to explain why. But I get so much encouragement from many of you, wish I could go into more detail at times!
Better sign off for now, love and prayers to all, and I ask for your prayers also. |
Lydell
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 9:46 am: | |
Windmotion, it's unfortunate that your husband, and others, are unable to separate "religion" from "Christianity". The two are totally different.
I can't begin to encourage you strongly enough to find a church where the folks are enjoying a living relationship with Jesus. Get involved and stay there. He did NOT create us to be solitary creatures.
With all you are going through in your marriage, you desperately need loving brothers and sisters in Christ to come along side you and encourage you and pray for you. Of course, it's not going to be easy to go to church alone. But keeping to yourself without someone beside you to speak spiritual truth into your life is a sure fire avenue to spiritual death. If you don't give time and attention to your own spiritual health, it's a certainty you will never be able to be used to impact your husband.
The issue to address with your husband is not which church to go to, that's unimportant at this point. The issue is his salvation. It's not whether Saturday or Sunday is the right day to go to church. That shouldn't even come up for discussion. What matters is his personal responsibility for what he has done with his life. It sounds like he is way back there before step one, admitting that there is, in fact, a God, and that it matters to his life personally.
By the way, when you find a church, you are NOT going to get to know the people just by showing up for a service on Sunday morning. They aren't going to be able to help you if you don't give them a chance to know what is going on in your life. An occassional visit to a service here or there isn't going to work. The one on one relationships are going to be forged in smaller groups, like Bible studies, and socials.
Praying for you. |
Maryann
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 10:51 am: | |
Hi Windmotion,
If you would like, e-mail me and I get some intersting material to you.
christyoureternallife@hotmail.com
As to Max. He doesn't have internet anymore and is working on other projects. You know how time consuming the net is!!!;-((
Maryann |
Doug222
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 7:21 pm: | |
Sammi
I can relate to your dilemma about the Sabbath. I am in the same place. I know intellectually that the SDA's teachings and emphasis on it are not biblical, but still find myself caught up in tradition and what "other people" think.
This past Sunday the Pastor preached a sermon that is very timely to this discussion. He was speaking about the beggar who waited outside the gate Beautiful (Acts 3) begging the Jews who were in attendance for money. Peter and John came by and told him, "silver and gold have I known, but that that I have, I freely give you." It made me see that I am that beggar. I've been sitting "outside" the temple begging people (the church) to give me something. They have given me money (religion), but they never invited me into the temple. Now I see that Jesus is saying that if He gives me religion, I'll be back again tomorrow, but if He gives me Grace, my life will never be the same. Notice that in the story, the people recognized the beggar as the one who "used" to be at the gate. The Pastor's point was that the beggar was willing to choose "survival" over "life." Oh what a difference Jesus makes in our lives.
Hope this helps someone the same way it helped me.
In His Grace, Doug |
Maryann
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 8:33 pm: | |
Hi Guyz,
How about a story to lighten the heart and maybe bring on a smile?
I wrote this before Colleen gave me an English lesson about breaking giant, looooong paragraphs into many paragraphs!;-)) I even got a smile or two out of it when I re-read it!
By Maryann on Sunday, March 12, 2000 - 12:14 pm:
I sent this little story to a FAF friend that said she climbed this mountain about 50 years ago when she was in her 20s. She suggested that ya'll would enjoy it.
Climbing Mt.Thielson (a 9000ft.+ Mt. near Crater Lake Ore.) was a the thrill of a life time. I was 15 (14?), tripple tuff and proud of it. I went with this experienced old fella (40), his lady friend and a herd of about 6 boys that were only a little tuff that were about my age. I don't think any of us kids had ever climbed. All went well climbing up. He was very good with us kids, had us all outfitted with our ice axes, cramp ons, ropes etc. He was at the head of 5 and I was at the head of 4. We did a few practice slips so we knew how to holler, "dig in", so the whole string of us wouldn't slid down that long steep slope. (Over a 1000 ft.). Everyone of course, had to carry their own gear which with the rope was quite heavy for kids, (I mean the boys). When we got up to the little ledge that I remember as about 40ft. from the top, we rested. Out fearless leader then very carefully, even though it was icy, climbed to the top of that 40ft. sheer rock pinnacle and hollered NEXT. I was on my way! He told me to carefully hand over hand all the way up. NO PROBLEM!! Get this, I was in no way tied to anything!? Just my hands to the rope. I was unusually strong and I was just running up the rope. To my right a couple feet was THAT sheer drop off that I remember as millions of feet down (600 to 1000ft?). Almost to the top, I looked up just as some clouds against the blue sky were blowing over, giving me the sickening feeling that the whole rock pinnacle was falling over on me. I FROZE! Climbing that fast then stopping that fast with the rope above me on a bit of a knob, caused me to swing to the right over that sheer million foot drop off!
God and fear (and maybe fear of God too!) glued my hands to that rope! The guy swung me back were I belonged and I continued up. I think there was a bench mark in the middle of the top and I sat there immobilized for as long as we were all up there(10 years!). What amazes me is that I didn't puke or mess my pants. I some how climbed off the top with no outward fear. (To proud and tuff.) I remember the top as about 18-20ft around? We had a blast on the way down. We slid a lot just for the fun of it. As we got down in the trees again, some of the boys got tired and had to stop. Then they couldn't carry their loads because the snow was crusty and hard to walk in. I guess I was still so pumped from my near swing with death that I was able to carry all my gear plus 2 of their ropes (300ft all togather) and their ice axes and cramp ons hanging all over me. It was really to much, but yours truely was WAY to proud to say a word. I was so happy to see the van and dump the loads! Why was I so determined to be so tough? 'Cause EGW squelched my gender so soundly! This was one of the times I didn't have to wear a "dress" as such, but a longish oooowgly top of some sort over pants. Still, what a horrible thing that I nearly killed myself all my growing up years to prove I was tough enough to wear pants with out a dress over them! Was I just a rebellious teenager? Lots of other SDA girls accepted the dress code. Look at the Amish people. They put their women and girls though hell and they accept it. Why was it so un-acceptable to me??? I was a good kid other than the dress problem and the fact that I argued in the sense that I needed to know WHY something was wrong and all the reasons. I was not questioning authority so much as wanting something logical to hang a belief or command on? Mom, even now, says that I was a good kid except for the above. The other SDAs we were around felt I was way to boisterious. I WAS JUST A HAPPY KID AND SHOWED IT! I guess I better quit before I have a conniption fit.
Sincerely connipting..........Maryann |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 8:56 pm: | |
Windmotion, I second what Lydell posted above. Whether or not your husband goes with you, you need to be in fellowship with other believers. Many churches have women's Bible study groups, and many have weekly study groups for women in the community, not just members.
I speak from experience; it is essential to be fed spiritually and to be upheld in prayer by others. Personal Bible study is essential, but the miracle of the Body of Christ is that we are one in him, and if we are isolated, we are being amputated from the rest of the body. We cannot live amputated, and the Body also needs us. Find a Bible-teaching church, and get involved in Bible study. When we began looking for a church, we prayed that God would show us where to go. He did!
I will pray that you will find the right church for you, and I will pray that your husband will be willing to face and deal with Jesus and the condition of his own life. And by the way, no one will pity you if you go without your husband. That was, I remember, often a phenomenon people experienced in Adventist churches, and when someone came habitually without a spouse, it was a subject of whispers in the foyer and at Sabbath dinner. That does not happen in a true Christian congregation. Of course there will always be busy-bodies somewhere lurking, but on the whole, a Christian fellowship will embrace you and pray for you, not feel sorry for you.
Just a mention about the rapture. The word "rapture" is simply a word for being caught up in the air. The teaching we believed as Adventists could just as easily have been called a rapture as the second coming. There is no difference.
The differences we begin to face in the Christian community have to do with WHEN the rapture happens. As Adventists we were taught that the "secret rapture" was identical to the "rapture". Not so! "Rapture" simply means being caught up; the secret rapture is the phenomenon the Left Behind series is dealing with. The secret rapture is when the church is taken out of the world before the wrath of God spoken of in Revelation is poured out. People disappear with no warning or trace.
The Bible, quite frankly, is a bit ambiguous about how and when the rapture will occur. I personally don't see biblical evidence for a secret rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4 describes a higly visible return of Jesus and subsequent rapture. The text in Matthew about two women grinding, one being taken and the other left, does not seem to me to be a definition of HOW the rapture will occur but rather how unpredictable it will be to others as to whom will be ready to go.
I'm beginning to think, based on various texts in Revelation as well as the promise that God's wrath will not touch the righteous, that God's people may actually be raptured before the end of the tribulation. But to be honest, I am not absolutely convinced about a pre-tribulation rapture, a mid-tribulation rapture, or a post-triibulation rapture. I'm just not sure--I can find texts to suggest support for various aspects of all three!
I am thrilled, however, not to be married to my old, set-in-cement views about it anymore. I can live with not knowing but being open to various possibilites. It's a relief to be able NOT TO KNOW and to know that God knows, and when the time comes, I'll know! And as time passes and I study more, I may find myself leaning more one direction or the other.
I'm certain now that the scenario we believed as Adventists is not biblical. Revelation is somewhat ambiguous, but it does not teach a thousand years in heaven.
As for the rapture--I believe! I'm just not certain of the details. Others whom I respect do have more certainty about their beliefs about the subject, and that does not bother me at all.
I'm thrilled to be in the body of Christ where the thing that matters is commitment to Jesus and a new birth, not specific doctrinal differences. We can differ on peripheral interpretations, and it doesn't affect our position in the body.
Praise God!
Colleen |
Sammi
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 4:54 am: | |
Doug,thanks for your encouraging comments.
Windmotion, if I gave the wrong impression, I too think a healthy, gospel focused church is ideal, and support of other believers extremely important. I just mean that if you're at a place right now where you have no other choice the most important thing is to stay focused on Christ and seek his guidance in all this, not your own. God bless you and I will be praying for you.
Thanks Colleen for your comments too! The rapture is confusing to me, and I am curious of the views of those more studied than me. Of all my husband's beliefs (remember he is not SDA) that is the one that's most confusing to me. As you said, the details really don't have to be understood as the outcome, thank God, is certain!
Thanks all for your fellowship. |
Trippllb
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 9:44 am: | |
Maryann, thank you for reposting your comments to Ken. I am slowly coming around on reconciling that text with what I was taught and what I am coming to believe about the Sabbath. I was able to sit down 1-2-1 with my dad a few weeks ago and discuss some of my concerns about EGW. He is an SDA bible teacher and I was amazed at how easily he refuted some of the issues I was having with her. I made the conscious decision not to discuss this text or my Sabbath questions until I felt more sure of how I felt regarding this text. The Lord seems to be working in my life to show me truth and I think I need to focus on truth before trying to joust bible with a professional. The posts I've been seeing on this text have truly helped me to begin establishing my beliefs on the Sabbath.
Also, thanks for the respost by Lori on getting a Sabbath Rest. I don't think I've ever experienced a restful Sabbath. She did a wonderful job painting the picture of pure SDA Sabbath Rest. |
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