| Author | Message | ||
| Andrew_adams |
Violet, yes there are, (Mat 24:36 KJV) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Mark 13:32 KJV) But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Violet, if you read before this you will see that Jesus is speaking and tell about His second coming One point I forgot, Jesus made the comment, Matt. and Mark just put it in print. AA | ||
| Andrew_adams |
Violet, do you know how many times that EGW wrote about knowing the day and hour of Jesus return? AA | ||
| Violet |
No, but I am at odds with a SDA friend who swears that the "truth" EGW is speaking about in Early Writing 1st angel message is not about time and day but about Jesus is coming soon. That even though Miller made a "mistake" he was still preaching the "truth". I kid you not this is the e-mail conversation I have been having over the past couple of days. | ||
| Andrew_adams |
Violet, have you ever read Early Writings? In this ,EGW says a lot of things that God told her, some in what she called her first vision. In this first vision she said that "God gave us the day and hour of Jesus return? Check it out Early Writings page 15, but this is how SDA's talk, in riddles. She says that William Miller was led by angels of the Lord, so angels of the lord led him astray. AA | ||
| Andrew_adams |
Violet, here are a few; Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 15, paragraph 1 Chapter Title: Experience and Views Soon we[* SEE APPENDIX.] heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming. Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 126, paragraph 1 Chapter Title: Supplement Sorrow filled heaven as it was realized that man was lost and that the world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and that there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I then saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with His Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that He had been pleading with His Father, and had obtained permission to give His own life as a ransom for the race, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon Himself, Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 233, paragraph 2 Chapter Title: Spiritual Gifts The preaching of definite time called forth great opposition from all classes, from the minister in the pulpit down to the most reckless, heaven-daring sinner. "No man knoweth the day nor the hour," was heard from the hypocritical minister and the bold scoffer. Neither would be instructed and corrected by those who were pointing to the year when they believed the Just three, I know there are more. How many do you know of? AA | ||
| Violet |
I do not know how many times she said that. but this friend I am talking to has about pushed me to the end of the line. He continues at say that the message of WM Miller was not on the time and day but that the scoffers did not have Jesus in their heart and were scoffing at Jesus. I just cannot get that out of the writtings. One problem I really have is why do we have to explain her writings with such detail she did not live that long ago. It's not like it 2000 years ago and was written in Greek. This gal live 100 years ago and spoke English. I think it is just a big cover up. I went to church today. This was a big step. Non-denominational. The SS class had just started a study today using "The Jesus I never Knew" I really enjoyed it. One thing I noticed about the service was that when they talked about the church and body of Christ they were talking about all Christians as they said something to the effect of for the past 2000 years our fathers. It was so refreshing not to be in the "elitist" church. VI | ||
| Violet |
Well guys I am up against a new one. Help! Now as I try and show the errors in EGW writings I am getting the response that they don't read her anyway so it does not matter then they turn the table on me and ask why I know so much about the writings if I don't believe in her. (I say I studied her so much that is what made me leave) and once you hear this stuff it's like a bad song that keeps ringing in your ears. Let your kid play "Whoops I did it again" 40 times in one night and try and get that out of your mind. Irritating! Anyway at what point did you realize the writings were false and what gave you the lightbulb moment? For me I would have to say when I read about the secret vice and the amalgamation between man and beast. But I'm curious as to what yours was. Love ya VI | ||
| Lori |
My dad says he doesn't "read" E.W., either, but he uses the S.S. study guide for his devotional everyday. If your friends attended S.S. they "read" E.W. I just received the SDA church newsletter from the church I attended here. In all the articles that were printed there was only ONE scripture quoted!! There were FIVE of E.W.'s quotes. The point IS NOT whether they intentionally pick up one of her books and read directly out of them. The point IS the things they are studying from and hearing said in services ARE influenced by people who do "read" her writings. This is a reality. If the Adventist churches were not relying on E.W. books then there would be no Adventist denomination. Without E.W.'s interpretation of scripture all of the doctrines that differentiate Adventism from other denominations would be gone. Your friends do not think they are reading E.W. because E.W. has become such an "issue" in the church that the church is covering her up. Her name is disappearing but her influence is as strong as ever. "New" books are being printed, with "new" titles. They are all the words of E.W. carefully concealed behind those who "compiled" the book. Her writings are being re-distributed by "compilers", published into books or booklets and distributed with the "compilers" names on the cover. I don't know if I had a "light bulb" moment. As a teenager I was confused by our "Biblical church" quoting her more than scripture. If Adventism is so biblical then why didn't we use the Bible. I have never placed much weight on her words, but at the same time I didn't realize how heavily my interpretation of the Bible was dependent on her words. Don't overload those you are talking with with too much at one time. Tackle one subject. They simply can not "take" it. I didn't "take" it in one swoop either. It was little here and a little there. That statement makes me think of Isaiah 28. I just finished a fascinating study on the study of tongues Isaiah uses the speech of a drunkard to describe the state of God's people. There was no one to teach Gods word to, there was no one that would listen, there was no even a place to hear Gods word. Who could Gods word be taught to? Children just weaned. NO, they can't understand it. And, the people that could understand are so "drunk" they can't process the information even if they would listen. In Isaiah 28 the people were alcoholics. Adventist are legalists. Alcoholics can't mentally process Bible doctrines because their minds can't function properly. Adventist can't mentally process Bible doctrines either, they are "drunk on legalism". The truth can't get past the legalism. Isaiah uses sarcasm in verse 10, he mimicks the slurred speech of the drunk who has just realized he has been criticized. Drunks often repeat it says, "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept" the drunk has just been told their is a cure for his problem--Bible doctrine. But it has to be a building process. Learning one doctrine and then another and then another. He wants the cure, but he wants ALL of it now. But he can't process it ALL at one time. "Exegesis upon exegesis, Exegesis upon exegesis, a little here and a little there" --The solution to the problem is to abstain from drinking and remain positive to Bible doctrines, building one piece at the time. It's a slow process. The drunkard doesn't like this solution, he wants the solution to be instantaneous. In indignation he shouts "a little here and a little there". In that time, the people were so intoxicated that they could not understand Bible doctrines, it was foreign to them--this passage goes on to the introduction of the tongues and it's purpose but that is irrelevant for my purpose in sharing this. Adventist are "intoxicated with legalistic arrogance". They can't take in the truths of scripture. They can't process them. When the opportunity comes and they can, it has to be slow....it's a little here and a little there. The alcoholic can't usually can not abstain from alcohol long enough to understand the cure. Adventist are just as addicted to legalism, they can't get past the legalism and arrogance in order to listen to the cure. In either circumstance if too much information is given it is rejected. They simply can't process it. What does a drunk do when he is confronted he usually is defensive and blames you for the problem. What do Adventist do when confronted? they become defensive and act like you are the problem. Don't try to show them EGW is not inspired. Take something small, one topic and show them what scripture says and what EGW says....perhaps even wait until they bring up a topic. They do not realize how much their interpretation of scripture relies on her writings. They don't realize how often the scriptures they quote are taken out of context. They aren't reading EW but they aren't reading scripture untainted by her thoughts either. Lori | ||
| Chuckiej |
I can't say I had a specific "moment." I always had the impression that something wasn't kosher. One of the things that irked me was that in Patriarchs and Propehts, she never made it clear that the reason Christ was superior to all the angels was b/c he was God. I wondered why she didn't say that explicitly. I don't have any of her books here at my home, but I remember gettting the impression that she saw it as just an arbitrary decision on the Father's part to exalt Christ. On second thought, I think the turning point was when I went to an SDA college and took the "Fundamentals of Christian Faith" class. In it, we discussed the "Spirit of Prophecy" and how she was supposedly as inspired as Jeremiah, Isaiah and John, but yet it wasn't on the same level as scripture. That didn't make the sense to me and it still doesn't. The fact that they couldn't come up with a sensible role for her in relation to scripture just about did it for me. Since then I've read much of the info on www.truthorfables.com and www.ellenwhite.org which just confirms what I always suspected. | ||
| Chyna |
Dear Violet, You have, the contagious urge to expose the true ugly roots of Adventism to Adventists. Of course EGW is the roots and the foundation of the church. Ditto to what Lori says, when I started questioning my ex-b/f's doctrine, he *STARTED* to read EGW's books. bleah, unfortunately I was clueless at the time about SDA. And yeah, the reason why a lot of her books sound ok is because she plagarized from everyone else. That is a separate issue. Like you, I want to give Adventist a truth injection that would rid them of all EGW influences. Unfortunately I don't think that ever happens. Think of your own journey out of SDAism, and how long it took for your eyes to open up to the truth. Please please please understand Violet, that I thought that if I just could sit down with my SDA ex-boyfriend, going into detail about every aberrant doctrine with the Word of God in my hands showing him what the Bible actually says (without EGW influence) and weeks of pleading with God to open his eyes to the truth, then he would say, "yes, you are right, what I'm believing is wrong." Instead he dug at his heels and whenever he encountered a question he couldn't answer, he would brush it aside and open his bible to another unrelated verse. Like: "If God says not to judge anyone according to what day they observe, then how can keeping the Sabbath be still in effect? How could Paul say worship on anyday if we are supposed to keep Sabbath?" or "Jesus declared all food clean." How he could reconcile that to the SDA health msg. He couldn't, but he wouldn't face it. It was an emotional, and spiritual problem. Because he HAS to believe what he believes is true, otherwise his world would shatter, much how like Chuck prefers to stay in SDA because of all the emotional ties. Not only that, but also because of the underlying control SDA has over its followers. *sigh* so plant the seeds, give them biblical truth, believe in the sufficiency of Scripture. and know, most importantly, that nothing you say could ever open their eyes, only God can. | ||
| Chyna |
dear Lori, awesome post! I felt like I was learning so much :), Chyna | ||
| Violet |
Thank you Chyna, my husband tells me much of the same thing daily. Asking me why I spend hours reading and cross refferencing, checking everything I write to them 2 and 3 times. I guess I am like the stupid teenage girl who answers the question from her father "why do you put up with the stuff your boyfriend does?"-- Because I love them. I understand I am powerless, the Holy Spirit has to convict the soul. Vi | ||
| Sherry2 |
Thank you for sharing Chuck, and Vi. Trouble quotes I had came from Spiritual Gifts Vol 1-3, which I own. One was her saying that the slave who didn't get an opportunity to hear the Gospel would simply not be raised when Christ came again, He would remain as he was. Now, that really conflicts with the Bible saying "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" doesn't it? Yet I went to the SDA site that defends these quotes, and that quote was listed and sure enough they defended it, confirming a belief that those who never get an opportunity to make a decision for or against will simply not be raised. Now I was never taught that as an SDA, but yet it was being defended. I was shocked. Outraged!...even more sickening is the fact that the EGW roots are so deep in my system, that parts of me want to say,"well maybe their right." Now that is what tells me the church has cultic properties. There's more quotes from those books. I'll share later. I'll drag them out so I can quote word for word too. | ||
| Violet |
Oh, I just ran accross a statement that shows just how deep she is embedded in the system. I was cleaning under my bed on found a book "Small Groups for the End Time" by Kurt W Johnson. Sounded pretty harmless---get this Under the title "My Personal Vision" pg.128 and I quote "To be faithful to Scripture and Ellen White, small groups cannot remain an optional part of the church life." Just who are we worshiping here????? Any comments? Vi | ||
| Colleentinker |
I read Desmond Ford's Glacier View defense in 1980 (or was it 81?). I knew then that the IJ had to go. The irony, though, was that although I ceased to see Ellen as necessarily authoritative, I still saw her as culturally important and devotionally beneficial. What a twilight zone I lived in for about 15 years! I've come to realize that many "progressive" Adventists do the same thing. It's really a symptom of confusion. Reading Ratzlaff's Cultic Doctrine was what "put me over the edge". I knew when I read that book I had to call her a false prophet. I did not expect that to be so hard to do! When I did, though, I was finally able to see the Bible clearly, and I began to be aware of the Holy Spirit guiding me. In many ways my deep background loyalty to her sat on the Holy Spirit's throne in my heart. | ||
| Sherry2 |
You know, Colleen, there are quotes he used that as soon as I read them I burst into tears, because they were passages that held me in such bondage, and it hurt to the pit of me! Oh man, Vi, how scary!!!! You've got to make a copy of that and send it to me!!! Whew! Here I thought Kurt would be an up and coming defactor someday. Well there's always hope on God's timing. I have some of his small group books too, I think. I may have tossed them. But wow! | ||
| Violet |
Sherry, e-mail me at robtami@prodigy.net and I will scan in the page and e-mail it to you | ||
| Chuckiej |
Hey Sherry, I had forgotten about that one. But it's one that got to me too. For a somewhat lengthy, but sound Scriptural explanation of what happens to those who haven't heard the Gospel, try this link: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/HNoHear.html The main point I would make on that issue is that Rom. 1:20 says that God's nature is so apparent in his creation that those who don't do right have no excuse. By implication, that means there's enough evidence for anyone to know right. See also Rom. 2. | ||
| Sherry2 |
Wow Chuck, good read! Lengthy, but good. Praise God for His mercy and grace! "That none should perish!" We know some will, but it's got to be the burning desire of every saved Christian to see as many come to Christ as possible. Thank you for pointing out that link! | ||
| Lori |
This is a change in subject....but it's an E.W. problem...I was shocked by this poll found on the aToday website aToday Polls Poll results for.... Most Important Adventist Doctrine What do you think is the one most important doctrine of the Adventist church? The Sabbath 40 votes (12%) Importance of Scripture 28 votes (8%) Spirit of Prophecy 4 votes (1%) Justification by faith 71 votes (21%) Investigative Judgment 141 votes (42%) Heavenly sanctuary ministry of Jesus 13 votes(3%) The health message 1 votes (0%) None of the above 35 votes (10%) The investigative judgement is the most important doctrine. The very doctrine that speaks against the work of the cross is most important to Adventist! Do you notice that the gospel message is not even on the list? |
