| Author | Message | ||
| Christina |
Hi Everyone, I realize that this forum is for former SDA's, So I figured you of all people would be better at helping me with something. My Sister and I decided to do bible study, Now mind you we both live 60 miles apart so we do it through email. We just got started with it. She asked if I would be willing to read what she sends and make corrections if needed and then I could send her things to read and she would make corrections. Well I am hoping this opens the door for me to try and help her see the light. Right now we are in Revelations. I myself believe in the rapture she doesn't. So thats how we began. She feels like Rev 7:13 to be already fullfilled. She began to tell me about the inquisitions and the reformation and the papacy, I am not Catholic or agree to what they do or did, but my gosh it seems like she really dug in deep with the bashing of them you could say. My daughter asked her last year if she knew who Ellen White was, she said she never heard of her. I love my sister very much and I wouldn't do a thing to hurt her intentionally, but I am lost here as to how to respond here. I send her replies back and she will tell me well thats not what that verse means and It's talking about a different time. Am I going to be just going in circles with her? I don't know my bible as well sa I should. So I always try to find someone to explain something to me. But then she questions who told you this or where did you find it. Is there some way to began talking to her where she will eventually listen open mindly? | ||
| Valm |
Christina, Starting a Bible study with an SDA is a tough one. I will give a couple of thoughts and hopefully people will add to it. First, from my experience SDA people do not enter Bible study with another to study together and learn. They enter with the assumption to teach and lead. Even though it would seem from the format you describe that is not the case, I would suspect your sister's motives are to lead you to the "truth" as she sees it. The best that can come from such a study is that the two of you will spar back and forth. Another possible outcome could be that due to the prowess many SDAs have in doing this that she will weaken your own faith in the gospel message. SDAs do alot of proof texting. Meaning they take a text here and over there to build their doctrinal arguement. Often these text are taken out of context of the chapter or book they are written in. So if you get a string of Bible texts, beware. Read the chapter before and after (atleast)the text to derive a better meaning of what the truth of the word is. SDAs interpret the Bible based on alot of assumptions which stem from their doctrine of the investigative judgement. To speak with an Adventist you really need understand this doctrine. A good study on this is Ratzlaff's book the CULTIC DOCTRINE OF THE SDA CHURCH. And another good study is his book SABBATH IN CRISIS. The info to obtain these books is in the links of this site. Most SDAs gloss over the gospel message and do not fully understand it. This is where they get side wounded into the apocolyptic portions of the Bible. I would suggest to you that you ask your sister if you two can begin your studies over again at the foundation of the Chrisitan faith, the gospel message. If you do not feel that you are knowledgable in this area a great online book to read called NEW COVENANT CHRISTIANS and can also be found in the links section of this site. My last suggestion to you is to learn some of the basic assumptions that SDAs have on certain doctrines. One is that the Mark of the Beast is the papacy and that worshipping on Sunday is a sign of worshipping the beast. The SEAL OF GOD spoken of in Revelation to them is not the Holy Spirit but is the keeping of the Sabbath. The Testimony of Jesus is not the Gospel Message but the "Sprit of Prophecy" which to them means Ellen White's writing. I wish you the absolute best. In my experience with my family, I find it best just not to discuss religion at this time. Their only interest is to bring me back into their view of the truth. If an when God is ready for me to discuss this I hope I will see an opportunity of openess in their hearts to study. Valerie | ||
| Christina |
Valerie, Thank you so much for getting back to me. You mentioned>>One is that the Mark of the Beast is the papacy and that worshipping on Sunday is a sign of worshipping the beast. The SEAL OF GOD spoken of in Revelation to them is not the Holy Spirit but is the keeping of the Sabbath. The Testimony of Jesus is not the Gospel Message but the "Sprit of Prophecy" which to them means Ellen White's writing. My sister already informed me of this. Except for Ellen white who she claims she doesn't know. She also sent me, that she said she had found were three notable tribulations predicted in the bible. 1. persecution in the Roman Empire 2. The great Tribulation of the 1260 year days (538-1798) 3.The time of trouble at the end. Of course under each of these is a explanation. I have already downloaded Ratzlaff's book the CULTIC DOCTRINE OF THE SDA CHURCH. And another good study you said, is his book SABBATH IN CRISIS. I have found a wealth of information on the SDA's it's just taking time out to read it which I have been trying to do each morning. I Know I need to know what there doctrines and beliefs are, before I can even begin respond to her. Thanks for telling me about NEW COVENANT CHRISTIANS link. I hadn't looked through everything on this site yet. I went there briefly and it sounds very good. I just wrote to my sister and told her I think we got off on the wrong foot, with the rapture study being first. I asked her if we couldn't just begin our studies over again at the foundation of the Chrisitan faith, the gospel message like you suggested. I asked to please not use any of her reference material like her clear word book, or anything else she has to study with. I also informed her if she thinks that she is going to pull me in to her SDA church, to think again, because thats not what I want. So we will see where this all goes. I pray that I can get through this with her. I told her also that if she feels like she can't do this with out her study material, that maybe we shouldn't do this at this time, because I sure don't want to go tit for tat with her, and not be on speaking terms with her again, like I was 4 years ago when she was in the Jehova wittnesses. She wouldn't speak to me for 2 years, and then when we patched things up, I find she is a SDA. Go figure. | ||
| Lydell |
Christina, maybe you should try to get her to go straight thru a book with you, like Mark or John. By the way, the "Clear Word" is a paraphrase version of the Bible that relies on EGW's writings for interpretation of the scriptures. | ||
| Christina |
I just got a email from my sister I had asked her if we could study just from the Bible, no Clear Word Book or other reference material that she may have.Well first she tells me that she doesn't know what the Clear Word book is, she also said, "My religion never ever preaches salvation by works. We could never earn the wonderful promises in the Bible. My religion teaches salvation through faith. If you love me you obey my commandments. She also told me that I use my reference material to help me find Bible texts and to also help me find answers to questions. The Bible has always interpreted itself to me. I feel Ellen White was a prophet sent to help the world. I will always feel this way unless the Lord shows me different." What I don't understand is how can she not Know what the Clear Word is, I am at a loss now. I guess the only now for me to do is pray about it. I thought though thats what I was doing and got the answer to do a Bible study with her. But I feel like a am beating myself on a brick wall. | ||
| Christina |
HI, Well I just recieved a letter back from her. She Started right in telling me that she doesn't know what the Clear word is. And that she believes that Ellen White to be a prophet from God and she believes in her, because she feels the Lord lead her to her. Now My question is this, How could she not know what the Clear word is? She tells me that she just uses material that she gets in the mail to help her interpret the bible, she also stated this to me, and I didn't even bring it up (My religion never ever preaches salvation by works. We could never earn the wonderful promises in the Bible. My religion teaches salvation through faith. Jesus said, "If you love me keep my commandments." I use my reference material to help me find Bible texts and to also help me find answers to questions)That is a good idea, asking her to go through the book of Mark and John. But How am I to know that she isn't using her reference material to interpret things. She already told me that if she can't use it she more or less won't study with me then. I have no Idea what will happen next with her, or if she will even talk to me now. But thats ok. I just want to thank you for atleast trying to give me advice any bit of that is always helpful. | ||
| Christina |
Sorry about double posting. When I went here to see if anyone had replied I didn't see the post above the last one I posted so I rewrote it, but when I hit submit post it was there along with the last one. | ||
| Valm |
Christina, Perhaps it would be good for the two of you to lovingly disagree and not study together. If you decide to continue studying with her, she will undoubtedly use her study materials. If she interprets something a way in which you believe is due to EGW or SDA writings ask her how she came to her conclusion. Again when she quotes something look at the text in the context of the chapter (and book) it is written in. If she refers you to another text do the same as she may be putting two texts together that might on the surface appear to be related but be unrelated when you read them in context. If your sister is a new SDA and also depending who she studied with to become and SDA and where she lives,she may indeed not know about the Clear Word Bible. I know that although my family members are very conservative SDAs they would not use the Clear Word Bible. As they are so conservative they are highly suspect of anything new that has come out of the SDA General Conference. My understanding is that the Clear Word Bible has not been around for long. Christina I just read your other post about your sister becoming a JW before an SDA. Did you know that both faiths evolved from that same 1844 movement? Wow. And that there modus operandi of working with people is very similar? You will have a tough time talking religion with your sister. I think if it were me I'd stick to talking about lighter topics for a while. Christina, I refer to myself as a recovering Adventist. I do this because I believe being in a faith like Adventism has many of the same psychological qualities as being trapped in other addictions like alcohol, drugs, food, sex, whatever. I am wondering whether your sister has somewhat of an addictive personality and her drug of choice is intense faith systems. There is a good book about that called TOXIC FAITH written by Arterburn and Felton. Just like communicating with a family member who is an alcoholic can be completely exasperating, so can communicating with a family member who is addicted to religion. For me, taking the point of view of this being an addiction has enabled me to be more compassionate and forgiving with my family. I will try not to reccommend any other reading to you!!!! Once again best wishes. Continue to keep the love lines open with your sister even if the communication lines seem bogged!!! Valerie | ||
| Jtree |
Christina, may I suggest a few areas of HELP. http://www.ellenwhite.org This is a great place for information. http://members.tripod.com/~Help_for_SDAs/index.html Also another, plus http://www.sdaoutreach.org at SDAOUTREACH, have your sister listen to the real audio there. must have REALAUDIO to listen. | ||
| Jtree |
Ellen White was a prophet, a false prophet. | ||
| Chyna |
Dear Christina, you have certainly come to the right place to ask your questions! one thing that I never though I'd be upset about is hearing scripture quoted, but the way SDA's quote "If you love me you'll keep my commandments" makes me upset. within the churches *I've* attended it's never meant: keep sabbath as the SDA church does. it's actually a wonderfully circular relationship with God. God's two foremost commandments are: to love the Lord your God will all your heart, to love your neighbor. God says to hate your brother and to love God is a lie, because how can one love God, whom one has not seen and hate his brother whom he has seen. Jesus said that whenever we visited a friend in jail, or gave food to the poor, or gave our clothes to someone in need we were attending to Jesus Christ. So if you love God you'll keep His commandments: of loving Him, and loving our neighbors which is also showing our love towards God. It is very important to study solely from the Bible, as we already know both JW's and SDA's biblical studies are not very accurate and often very harmful. Your best bet is to pray for your sister. It's not going to be until she is well on her way out of SDAism then can she understand that her studies of Revelations are all tainted by Ellen G. White's writings about it, and other various SDA doctrines. in Him, Chyna p.s. welcome! | ||
| Chyna |
also any SDA trying to study Revelations and/or Daniel with you is trying to convert you to SDAism, no doubt about it... | ||
| Christina |
Hi everyone, You all have given me lots of good advice that I really appreciate. Thank you! I wrote my sister back, but have yet to hear from her. I told her that I still loved her, but was concerned about what she was in. And that I didn't want to loose contact over this. One thing that bothers me is everytime I tell her something about the Bible, she wants to always know where I got my information from and what religion that information came from. So that was my first clue as to what was happening, I tried to explain to her that I am nondenominational. When I first found out she was in this. I did some researching, and found a neat lady to correspond with, a Pat Darrnel. Wonderful lady! She had told me that there would be a opporturnity some time where I would be able to talk to my sister. Well at that time it wasn't it. Then this past 2 weeks I thought she had opened the door. but guess not. I don't know if this was the right thing to do, but I told her I had been doing researching about the SDA's and have been in contact with former SDA's. . I told her that I have lots of information that I would be willing to share when she is ready. I don't know if that will make a difference or not. When I come accross something on the internet, I try to copy it to floppy so I can go back to it later and read it. It's just finding the time to fit that in and doing my own studying. again thanks for being here, I am feeling a little less lost! God Bless Christina | ||
| Sherry2 |
Here, here to Chyna. No doubt about it when it comes to Rev. or Daniel! | ||
| Chyna |
Dear Christina, as many FAFers had to tell me when I first came to this forum, feeling lost is a result of contact with SDAism. SDAism is confusing and tortuous, it's confusing and difficult to reconcile when you believe SDA doctrine, and it's difficult to understand from the outside. I've never been SDA but extensive contact with SDAism initially sent me spiralling, not because of doubting my faith, but having difficulty understanding how Christians (SDA ones) could be so spiritually blind. i still don't have an answer other than I explain to people that SDAs are probably the only Christian group that manages by some bizarre manner to be Christian and cultist at the same time in Him, Chyna | ||
| Nelda_church |
Sda's are so spiritually blind because in their mind they have the "TRUTH". When you have the truth, then everyone else has the error. Sooooo, an sda doesn't listen to anyone else's interpretation of ANYTHING that is spiritual. When I look back on my the 20+ years in adventism, I am appalled at how bigoted, short-sighted and narrow minded I was. Truly, GOD is able to bring your sister out, but it may take some time. One of the things I have asked my sda friends is, if EGW is a prophet, how come it took her from 1844 to 1888 to even hear about the righteous by faith message. Also, if she is a prophet, why would she set dates, which is clearly against the Word of GOD. And in Rev., the adding to and taking away from scriptures. Satan has a heavy veil over the eyes of many sda's and many times only our prayers can penetrate that fog. | ||
| Christina |
WEll she wrote me back and said...(I just wanted to let you know, I have alot of Ellen White's early writings. I have not found anything offensive. She was a very spiritually led person. Very wise for her years and the schooling she had. She only had an 8th grade education and she was very smart. thought I would let you know) She says she is just upset with me cause she thinks I am attacking her religion, that she prayed so hard to find. I have never done that, I have just asked her questions and sent her things to try and explain to me. She told me that if this was 4 years agao like when she was in the JW she would be parinoid. But she isn't now. My sister is from a small town in the midwest, the church that she attends is very small maybe 15 people all together. Every thursday she goes out and does Bible study with some shut ins. Both of her boys are home schooled by her. Her family up there is not very supportive of what she is in, I should tell you she is my half sister. Her two brothers make fun of her or atleast they did in the past. We share a father her and I, and she had a ruff childhood with him. I know she was searching, for something to bring peace in her life. I could see the change in her 2 years ago. I really feel she is at peace in a sense. But it just breaks my heart that she is in something that I know to be false. Gina is kind of blind to the ways of the world. Guess what I just now recieved another email from her and this is what she said, (I have one corrections to make. I have not read all of the Great Controversy. But I will try now to read it all. I did not want to tell a lie. It was bothering so I thought I would get it off my chest) What do you make of that! I think I found that somewhere on the net, I think I better go read it to see what She is reading. It feels so good to be able to share with all of you. Christina | ||
| Violet |
Dear Christina, As an Adventist growing up I thought White was very smart too. I could never fully understand her writitngs. As I became more educated I realized that she writes in circles. She contradicts herself, this keeps the reader confused. If there are any really profound statements in her writitngs you never know if she wrote them or just copied them from another. I feel your frustration, as I am going in circles with my Br-in-law right now. Yesterday I showed him the texts that supported the greatest commands that the Pharasees asked Jesus about, Love your God, Love your neighbour, I showed him where they were not in the 10 commandments but other parts of the Torah. He just responded they were a summary of the 10. He cannot even see clear to accept Jesus at His word. It is so sad, I just want to cry. | ||
| Lydell |
Christina, as you talk with your sister, be sure to talk about the things the Lord is doing in your own life today. The prayers that He answers today. The precious promises that you see in His word today. Let your conversation always reflect that He is your friend and companion. In my experience, very few SDA talk like this. The religion is really focused on rules and regulations, do this don't do that, in the future we will see, in the future this will happen, etc. But precious little talk about relationship with the Father. Something I don't think any of us have mentioned yet is that the first thing you need to be figuring out is if your sister is, in fact, saved at all. Few SDA are. They know some words of how it is supposed to happen, but those get overshadowed by the stress on "if you love me, keep my commandments". That's quite a different focus from all that He taught which was basically, "if you love me, let me live in you so that I can change you from within." You know, in all this talk of your sister's in trying to get you to focus on Revelations, she likely hasn't mentioned that her church teaches that during "the tribulation that is coming Christians will have to stand without a mediator". Isn't it absurd to think that we humans could ever live our lives without the indwelling Holy Spirit? What arrogance to think we would ever not need God. That teaching is why the SDA's are such a cheerless lot. They talk incessantly about what is to happen in the future. But there is such an undercurrent of real fear. How can you have any abiding joy and peace when you carry that weight? Aren't we blessed in knowing that we can face the future like Stephen? Knowing that whatever happens, the Holy Spirit will be there to see us thru it. Oh this is sick, I just picked up some Revelation Seminar material here and noticed the following: Question: What are two primariy prerequisites for salvation? Answer: believe and be baptized (ahhh, so Christ lied to the thief on the cross and the poor guy was actually doomed to fry because he didn't have time to get baptized, I suppose!) Question: When do we officially "put on Christ"? Answer: when we are baptized (gee, that poor thief.) | ||
| Christina |
hey everyone, I hope you don't mind me sharing this with you, but I need some input here, She just sent me another letter, Now I had sent her an article written by this a guy he had wrote, Seventh-day Adventism Another Gospel HAROLD J. BERRY Grace College of the Bible Omaha, Nebraska I thought what he had to say was very interesting. She did to but , but that it had lies in it. Here is her letter to me. (Well, I am so glad you sent this to me. But I already have read it. There are lies in alot of it. For instance, we do not study her material more than the Bible. Never have we ever been told to do that. We are always ecouraged to read our Bibles before anything. Ellen White has always said to read the Bible first. In fact, alot of SDA do not read her material very much at all. Lie number two is that no one has changed her beliefs. I did not read everything in this article that this person wrote because there are alot of doctrines that would make good studies. The one I will comment on is this one. I will not ever believe that there is an everlasting punishment for those who lose everlasting life. We do not have a Father like that. There are many scriptures that are very, very,very clear on this subject. But this is another study also. Paul Harvey, the guy on the radio, has had several stories about Ellen White. How wise she was and all the good things she did. He continues to have them, I just heard one. He is not Adventist. I also heard someone who listed several people they thought to be sent from God. One was Martin Luther, and there were some others and also Ellen White. I do not believe this religion is a cult and I never will. The Lord has guided me here and after seeing this article you sent me I know the Lord is with me. My beliefs are all backed up by scripture. I got out of the JW's because of their teachings. I seen they were wroong. But you know what. I was beginning to see things before anybody came to my home to show me. I was seeing that their teachings were not making sense. God just gave me the push I needed and the strength. Then I was kind of dragging my feet and the Lord gave me another push into the right direction. I could go through this whole article and find lies I am sure. But I am not going to. I found enough allready. What you have not read is all the wonderful things Ellen White has done not only concerning the Bible but her health messages. She helped so many people change their life style by her message that it is just wonderful. All the medical facilities that use methods of healing that are natural and have to do with correct eating. And she did this back in the 1800's. What this woman did through the guidance of the Lord is so inspiring. Even John Kellog, the cereal guy, would talk with Ellen White before making changes. You do not know any of the good that Ellen White has done and how inspired she was. The Bible does talk about there being prophets in the last days. I believe she was one. I thank you very much for sending this to me. I was kind of anxious last night but not anymore. I will praise my Savior all day for this.) This is what I am up against. Christina |
