| Author | Message | ||
| Violet |
Christina, Ellen White also says that if you are sick it is because you are a sinner, She also refused to pray with a many who had lost his family due to illness because he practiced "solitary vice". The list goes on if you want more qoutes like these complete with reference page e-mail me at Robtami@prodigy.net I will be glad to e-mail them to you. I have the White CD-ROM so it is easy to find this gut wrentching trash. | ||
| Shereen |
Christina, I am going to step out on a limb here for a sec and give a differing opinion. First of all, I am a "recovering" SDA. I still struggle to free myself, especially when I talk to old friends. Now I might get alot of flack about what I am going to say but, maybe, just maybe your sister is where God wants her to be at the moment. Who knows what she will learn. Who can tell what she needs to glean from this experience in order to carry on with her walk with God. If I was you, I wouldn't concentrate anymore on showing her what a mistake she is making. I wouldn't want to put her on the defensive and loose a great chance to actually communicate with her about God. I would steer clear of any doctrinal things and be very positive of her new and growing relationship with our Lord and Saviour. I would get very defensive with ppl who would try to show me the error of my ways. I would close my ears and heart to what they had to say and only concentrate on defending my belief system. I have, however, always had close loving friends who, if they disagreed with my beliefs, didn't make that a part of our relationship. They just loved me, accepted me and concentrated on our similarities when it came to our Christian walk. I pray I have come across as clear as I would like to. I find I lack clarity with ideas. Just find common ground and stick to that but always keep her in your prayers. Pray that God gives her guidance, discernment and wisdom. Leave the important work to God, He is, after all, very good at it. Shereen | ||
| Valm |
Shereen, You have wonderfully and with the wisdom I love so much about you given balance and perspective to Christina. Thanks once again for speaking up. Valerie | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Shereen, I don't have time to read all the above post's. However, your post was right on target in my opinion. You said: "Now I might get alot of flack about what I am going to say but, maybe, just maybe your sister is where God wants her to be at the moment. Who knows what she will learn. Who can tell what she needs to glean from this experience in order to carry on with her walk with God." How true!!;-)) God DOES use our circumstances to His glory. We have been, so we can be. One has to experience certain things to, one day, be able to relate to other's that are where you were yesterday;-)))) Keep up the faith and stay warm;-)) Maryann.....IBC=Insured By Christ | ||
| Doug222 |
Amen Shreen!!! There's an old expression that says "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." Until she is ready to allow God to remove the veil from her eyes, your arguments will fall on deaf ears--and probably will cause her to become even more entrenched in her new found beliefs. Leave that work to the Holy Spirit. I am convinced that we often do more damage to the convicting work of the Holy Spirit through our well intended, but misguided efforts. In fact, i would go as far as to say you are doing the same thing she is. She is saying "I" have the truth, listen to me! Aren't you saying the same thing? Instead, both of you should be saying I have Jesus who promised me the comforter who will lead me into all truth. Just my .02 worth. Doug p.s. I don't mean this negatively, but the thought even crossed my mind that you might really be an SDA (or former SDA) trying to pull our chain because you seem to be using the same tactics as we (including myself) are notorious for. | ||
| Shereen |
Val, Maryann One regret I have these days is my lack of time to communicate with the two of you and a couple more ppl I have met here. I just wanted to let you know that it is not for lack of interest. I do read this forum everyday but quickly. I am extremely busy these days and even my Friday off is cancelled this week. I think of you all often and read what you have to say and occasionally God compels me to write. I don't write easily, I do so with a prayer for God to get His message, not my own, through. One day, I hope, I will have time to converse but in the meanwhile, please know I am watching and listening. Colleen,I get alot from your postings. Thank you. Shereen | ||
| Christina |
Doug, Believe me, I am not a former sda or one period. Thats the Gods honest truth!I have been at a loss as to how to talk to my sister, How else am I to learn what they are going through if I don;t hear from ones that were in it. I can find lots of stuff on the internet as to their false teachings to try and better understand. I do like what Shereen said "Just find common ground and stick to that but always keep her in your prayers. Pray that God gives her guidance, discernment and wisdom. Leave the important work to God, He is, after all, very good at it." That is very good advice. Shereen is right, at this time all it would cause my sister and I to do is go back and forth, she is very head strong, and so am I. I realise now, if I keep sending her material and asking for an explaination, it won't be one that I want to hear. So I have decided to leave it up to the Lord. I don't want her to be unhappy. Someday she will see the light. I will continue to study sda teachings so I will be able to better understand where she is coming from. The thought of going tit for tat with her, doesn't settle well. Like you said Doug, I'll have to pray that God lifts that veil from over her eyes, whatever I say to hear she will be convinced even more so then ever that I am wrong and just attacking her religion and she will pull away even further. So now I think I have it settled in my mind as to how I will procede with her. I have no doubt what so ever that she is a good Christian and that she has found God in her life. Thats all I want for her. I just pray that some day she will open her eyes up and realise that she can be the same way reguardless wether she is a sda or not. Christina | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Doug and All, You said: "I am convinced that we often do more damage to the convicting work of the Holy Spirit through our well intended, but misguided efforts." Boy oh boy, do I ever know how true that is!;-(( Mom showed up yesterday and things went good till this morning! In a discussion of, you guessed it, the Sabbath, she hinted that I was aligning myself with the Catholic church and I blew up. I've said over and over and over and over that I DON'T believe that Sabbath has been changed to Sunday! I believe that I have the forever eternal rest promised by God to those that believe. Sooo, we always say we wont argue and we stick with that for a few hours and then one or the other of us will say something that sticks in the other's craw. I'm not usually so sensitive, but to be called what I have been taught from babyhood is the mark of the beast, 666, and the people that are going to be responsible for killing the "remant" SDA's, just about made me puke!!!! She, of course, has all this proof from 3ABN that shows how all this bad stuff is going to come down on the Sabbath keepers. Well, I am so thankful to be released from those doctrines that keep your focus on earthly do's and don'ts rather than the gospel. I just MUST not argue anymore;-(( Funny thing, arguing isn't an issue with other people??? Maryann | ||
| Chyna |
hiya everyone, Dear Doug and Maryann, One thing in Sunday School tremendously relieved my mind: we can do nothing to save others. Only God saves. We, at best, get to participate. My teacher asked, "Do you think that anyone God is going to save will *not* become saved? Do you think at any point that if they die, God is like 'oops! too late,' Of course not!" It just shows us how "me" centered a lot of our thinking is, and how limited we think God is. In the same way all of our loved ones still in SDAism. We have to trust God's plan, His big picture, and do our best :). for everyone, you'd be amazed at how God can use you to plant seeds. even things you never meant to be a seed can be seeds. In a sense, if we are locking horns debating doctrines with SDAs unfortunately resulting in them clinging to their false doctrines stronger than before, maybe we're like Peter, overzealous, but good intentioned when he cut off the ear of the guard that approached Jesus. Jesus gently rebuked Peter and healed the ear. Likewise, any of our 'misdeeds' in our goodhearted attempts I think will always be remedied by our Lord and Savior. As it says in Romans 8:28 that all things work out for good for those that love God according to His purpose. Or even boasting in our weaknesses (not knowing THE precise correct way to approach SDAs mired in false doctrine) so that the glory of God may be magnified. When Bill told me I was supposed to stick to the 3 questions: who do you trust in for your salvation? do you believe Jesus died for all your sins pastpresentfuture, do you have assurance of your salvation? I was like "oh no! I messed up, I tried to do bible study with him and he just grew more stubborn." or when i had been talking to my ex over the phone and couldn't quite stay on course with the exact questions ... or even in spite of my faulty webpage and nonlinear thinking, still being able to be used by God to turn SDA hearts over to spiritual clarity, instead of blindness. that way I can never boast that it was the exacting detail rebutting SDA doctrines that made them understand ... And I do commend everyone on the forum for trying to make "a good defense" for our faith. As, I think, a lot of us have found out, needing to defend our essential beliefs stimulates us to search scriptures, pray, and open our hearts to learning the gospel in ever deepening ways. So, have faith, don't worry about your loved ones still in SDAism, our God is able. with love, Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
also Maryann, I'm sure arguing would be more of a problem if my SDA ex & his family were talking to me, but since they're not, there's no dialogue and no chance to argue ... maybe that's just God's plan to keep me sane. As many recent FAFers have posted one can get very upset and angry at the deception and the seemingly obtuseness of current SDAs. and I personally feel lots of ire towards SDAism because I believe it hinders people who are seeking, from finding the true joy of our salvation. love, Chyna p.s. it is good to 'hear' you post Maryann, I wonder what happened to Denise ... | ||
| Christina |
I wish I had found this forum first before I had attempted to do study with my sister, I went about it backwards. My heart was in the right place, but my knowledge wasn't, in what I was getting into on both sides. It did open my eyes to the fact that she had been trying to slowly over the past year try to convert me, and here I thought she was just being nice, which she may have, but I think her motives were more at putting the ides in my head. I realised that for the first time when I agreeded to the bible study. But something good did come out of it. It has sent me back to my bible in a wanting and knowing attitude. I would read it before, but to be honest, it wasn't sinking in. But now it has captivated my heart and soul to really read and take it all in, what our great Lord Jesus Christ is all about. My husband grew up in a faith assembly of God church. But hasn't been back since he turned 20. well he's 44 now. Him and I would try to read the bible in the past together, but it wouldn't last. He knows so much. He knows who the Lord is and has accepted him but it's like he had needed a eye opener also. and praise the Lord! him and I are studying together with a new found faith. This has just happened since my sister thing. So I feel like the Lord does move in mysterous ways. Maybe sometime in the future I will be able to talk to my sister I am hoping that when that time comes I will be so filled with the Holy Spirit that I will know what I am saying to her. Her and I are still friends but she atleast knows I don't want to be converted.I now know what I am dealing with when it comes to the sda's or atleast I have a better idea now.I want to thank each and everyone of you for your kind words and thoughts. It has meant alot to me that you welcomed me in, when I wasn't a former sda just a person who has family who is a sda. You all have a super duper day! God Bless Christina | ||
| Doug222 |
Someone earlier mentioned that God may have actually placed Christina's sister in the SDA Church. I fully believe this! I know that my experience (although I was essentially born in the SDA Church) has given me an ability to appreciate the message of the gospel in a way I never could have otherwise. I've heard people give testimonies of how they were on skidrow (or some other deplorable condition) and how God brought them to where they are today. I used to feel somewhat inadequate because I did not have such a testimony. I couldn't even tell you the day that I was saved. I am just learning that if anyone met the definition of Laodocia, it was me. I was so "comfortable" in my little world that I was never able to realize I was as lost as the drug dealer or prostitute. Now, when I read the book of Hebrews or the book of Galatians or when I read Paul's testimony, I can relate to the experience of these Christians who were attempting to gain salvation through their own efforts. God had to take me to the wilderness so I could learn to appreciate water. So I am thankful for my experience. I think I am now better prepared to share the real gospel with people who are just like me. That's something I never could have done before--afterall, if I didn't need to be saved, how could they? God is truly a great God and worthy to be praised!!! Doug | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Chyna and All, Thank you for your comments;-)) My mom was going to be here for just one night and now she's going to be here till Monday;-)) This means that she will be able to go to the FAF meeting, Church at Trinity, dinner and discussion at Tinker's and Bible study with our pastor in the evening;-)) Wow, what a line-up, huh?! I will take her to what ever Sabbath Church she might want to go to;-(( She hitched a ride here from Vegas with an SDA friend and the friend's plans changed, sooooo;-)) As to the "weird" places that God plants us in. I think that where ever you are at is where God wants you. Where ever you have been is where God brought you from. For myself, having tossed God so many years ago and being in the ruff and tuff world of contruction has enabled me to relate in a different way than most people, now that I'm a Christian;-)) Anyone that wants to read an interesting take on my personal experience at work can find it in the "Witness in the Workplace" thread. It may be archived now? Denise has been feeling down. Her 'puter is down too. She has lost 13 friends in the last 4 or 5 months of which 6 or 7 have been relatives! That's alot of death's!!!!!!! If you want to call her sometime, e-write me and I will get you in touch with her. She said I could get her today and she may use my 'puter if she feels like it;-))? Gotta run......Maryann...IBC christyoureternallife@hotmail.com | ||
| Violet |
Doug, I know what your mean. I am sure that God put me through a marriage of hell to fully appriciate the husband I have now, he is the best thing that ever happened to me. God was in control of my life, even when I was not smart enough to ask Him. | ||
| Colleentinker |
My grandmother joined the Adventist church in Austria during the early part of the century (LAST century, that is!). She grew up Greek Orthodox, and a friend of her sister's introduced both of them to Adventism. She and her sister converted because Adventism gave them the Bible. In the Orthodox church where she lived at that time, the members were not allowed to own or to read the Bible. They had to learn it from the priests at church. (Reminds you of the medieval period, doesn't it?) Both my grandmother and her sister were physically and emotionally persecuted by their own immediate family for defecting and joining the "Jews". She ultimately immigrated to Canada to escape the persecution and became a mail-order bride to my grandfather, an Adventist convert. Their marriage was difficult, to say the least, but my grandmother always de-emphaiszed EGW to my mother and her siblings. "I was converted to Jesus Christ, not to Ellen White," she'd say. I really had to think deeply about my grandmother's story when I left Adventism. It seemed clear that God had led her to the church. It seemed equally clear the God was leading me out. I finally realized that God does not have a denominational end-point for his people. He led my grandmother to Adventism because she yearned for truth, and where she lived, she had no other access to the Bible except through Adventism. God knew that she needed Him, but from her ritualized and controlled Orthodox past, she needed help from others to discover how to read the Bible. But God didn't bring her there to leave her and her descendents in Adventism. It wasn't Adventism per se that was the goal; it was Jesus. He continued to lead my family, including me, and several of us left the church and found Jesus in the process! All this reminds me of the story of Jesus riding into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. The children were singing, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" The pharisees were enraged and demanded that the children be silenced. Remember Jesus' response? "If they're quiet," he said in essence, "the rocks will cry out." God's will is sovereign. He knows the plans he has for each of us, and he knows what each of us needs in order to find him. If there is not a better medium to proclaim him, he'll use the rocks. He'll even use Adventism! But the fact that somebody finds the Bible and learns about Jesus through Adventism doesn't mean that Adventism is God's ultimate stopping place for him or her. Truth is much bigger and more freeing than Adventism. God continues to lead us to himself. If we're open to him, he'll take us down paths we could never have imagined. We'll probably find ourselves leaving behind many institutions and habits and loyalties we never thought we could abandon. It always amazes me how God tailor-makes our experiences. He knows exactly what we need, and in what order. He also has specific plans for us, and he leads us through the experiences of our lives and redeems our pasts in order to prepare us for the work he gives us. I really do stand in awe of Him! Colleen | ||
| Valm |
Coleen, Thank you for that story. "All things work for good for them who love the Lord according to his purpose." While I do not agree anymore with Adventism, I am learning and believing that the falsness of this doctrine is much more benign than other doctrines and place in life our loved ones could be. And I am believing more and more that my loved ones being in Adventism presently may be just where God wants them both in bringing messages to them and also in bringing learnings to me I do not understand every thing about my journey and my family's history into Adventism. But I do know that with God's help and my choosing being an Adventist and having it a part of the fabirc of my family history can be viewed as a positive part of my journey in what it taught me and in the deep appreciation I have for the Gospel message as I presently understand it. The children of Israel have a colorful history. And when looking at it in a fragmented way it is so easy to cast judgement on them, view elements of their culture and traditions in a negative way and even question God's justice in some instances of relating to these people. But when read and viewed in its entirity it is a journey of the Gospel message. The rules, regulations and traditions they kept; the times they really blew it in their relationship with God; their victories and defeats---in their entirity give us a story about who God is. This story was not complete in a generation but took place over many many generations. Just like Colleen's family was not intended to stay in Adventism generation after generation, but were brought out in God's good timing, the children of Israel were not to remain in the wilderness forever.....or without a Savior!!! Once again Colleen, thank you for that story. I feel prompted to reflect on my own family's history and the lessons to be learned and appreciated as well as how it fits into the blending of my life with my husbands unique family history. I am willing to bet it has it's own story of God's hand.... Valerie | ||
| Lori |
This past week, we had an Adventist couple come spend a few days with us. They are among the handful of people that have not "disowned me" since they were told I was leaving the Adventist church. The woman was not raised Adventist. She dated an Adventist and converted to Adventism in the 70's. I asked her what it was that convinced her that Adventism was truth. She said, "I read my way into the Adventist church, I didn't go to any classes or to any meetings, I just read myself into the Adventist church". So, then I asked her what did she read? Her reply was, "The Great Controversy" People simply don't read their Bibles and become Adventist. They read E.W. and become Adventist or they read material containing scripture that is heavily influenced by E.W. I don't think in my questions that my dear friend realized what she really said. They are so blinded to the deception they embrace. | ||
| Chyna |
Dear Lori, I love the point you're making about Adventism loudly and clearly that the Bible never has directed anyone into the Adventist denomination, rather reading EGW's writings, and all of the teaching in the SDA church influenced directly from her. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Colleentinker |
I do agree with you, Lori and Val. You don't become Adventist by reading the Bible. Just to clarify my meaning above: I don't believe my grandmother became an Adventist because she read the Bible. She had been raised in a "cultic" church with extra-biblical authority. She wasn't allowed to read the Bible. That background made her vulnerable to authoritative-sounding teaching that taught her the Bible and, indeed, gave her one. The fact that her Bible teaching was skewed was something she would have had no immediate way to filter, having had no access to the Book previously. She did gain the freedom to own and to read the Bible. That was important for her. But no, I don't believe she would have become an Adventist just by reading the Bible. I have come to believe that Adventism is perhaps the most skillful deception of all the "mainstream cults". It has so subtley twisted the truth that it's hard at first to detect the falsehood. But the fact remains that it is founded on deception, and Satan has a claim on it and on those who embrace it. I do praise God that He is sovereign and that he leads us to himself however He can. He alone knows what will move us! Colleen | ||
| Lydell |
Actually, we did become SDA by reading the Bible. It was that the Lord used to get us to keep the sabbath for a time. But looking back I can see there was a heck of alot of influence likely from our SDA neighbors. And truly we never entirely swallowed the whole SDA teachings, there were always things that bugged me, in particular the bit about our having to stand without an intercessor during the time of trouble. AND most importantly never saying that you are saved. nope nope |
