| Author | Message | ||
| Chyna |
http://www.advocateweb.org/cease/Default.htm I haven't read through this entirely, let me know what you all think Chyna | ||
| Valm |
My first thought is why should the Adventist Church be immune from something that happens in every denomination and faith in the world? The current statistics alone on child sexual abuse is that 1 in 10 children are sexually abused at some time in their life. Hardly unique to Adventism or unique to society at large. Should a site exist to help Adventist people with this issue? You bet like it should for every person of every denomination so that they get the help they need? Should a site like this exist to attack the Adventist church? No. This is not unique to Adventism and if used to attack Adventist people would be going on a witch hunt to find fault. Valerie | ||
| Colleentinker |
Wow! What a website. No, sexual abuse isn't unique to Adventism. But some studies have shown that Adventists and Mormons have much higher incidences of it than do other churches. Sexual abuse thrives in legalistic environments which are closed and in which perfection is important. A Christian student who attended a public university for two years before enrolling in an SDA university contacted us and asked what was going on at the SDA university where she is now. The parties, she said, had so much more booze and much more sex than the parties at the public university had. An evangelical pastor told me a couple of years ago that he had a parishioner ask him what was going on with Adventists. This person attended a women's Bible study group which had five SDA 20-something girls in it. "None of them will wear earrings," said the girl to her pastor, "but they're all sleeping around." When I was in an SDA college in the 70's, it was not uncommon for faculty members to date students. Some years later I was casually talking with a teacher at a public junior college about a date I had with a faculty member. This teacher reacted with shock and said that in public colleges and universities, professors are not allowed to date students. Such a breach of boundaries is reason for expulsion from the faculty. My husband had a non-Adventist ask him once if Adventists had a sexual problem. He was stunned by the rather poorly-hidden sexual practices he observed in some SDA colleagues where he worked. I'm glad to see there's a resource for people who are sexually abused within the Adventist church. I don't perceive it as an attack. When a person, even unknowingly, is enmeshed in deception, that deception will pervade all aspects one's life. Relationships are no exception. Colleen | ||
| Chyna |
Dear Valerie, Lately I have felt like there is nothing I can post that you will not disagree with, or minimize, or whatnot. I will decry SDAism for as long as it exists. I can distinguish between wanting to reveal the ugliness of Adventism and still love the people in it. It seems to me that you perceive me as having emotional problems with those inside of Adventism. It is true that my own personal experience has fueled my research of Adventism, and it's false doctrines. To be honest, sometimes when I read your posts I feel insulted, and I would appreciate it if you would allow other people to have differing opinions than you without jumping all over them as I have felt in the past. To me it's created an unfriendly environment for posting. I don't know if anyone else has felt similarly, but I certainly have felt more than hesitant to even want to read what's been posted here in the past week or so. I offered this URL because I found it and it pertains to Adventism. I view FAF foremost as a haven for Former Adventists, and for them to work out their issues more than for current Adventists. Yes, we love to answer their questions, but the forum isn't really of good use to them until God is changing their hearts. When I started posting a year ago I was quite shocked to hear people call Adventism a cult. I wasn't able to define it as such, but the more you learn, the more disillusioned you get about Adventism. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Valm |
Chyna, Reread your posts they speak for themselves. Do a bit of perspective taking from other people's postion, do you know about perspective taking. Reread some of your own posts to me. I wouldn't say you have ever thrown a warm fuzzy my way. Where were you with all your Easter self righteousness when GA and Bill were ridiculing me for celebrating LENT? I could have used so support there but you weren't around were you? If you can't handle other people's opinions well hey don't readily through out your own dose of criticism and judgement. "Pop Psychology"? Please Chyna you are training to be a doctor, you better read and understand Kubler-Ross as you will be dealing with grief on a day to day basis! And you better learn to respect the allied health disciplines as you will be needing them alot in your practice. How else can one interpret bringing up the CEASE website. Let's dig up some mud and sling it around. How else can one interpret bringing up Easter as if you honestly did not know? You are determined to expose Adventism. And you are doing it under this martyr pretense of bringing poeple our of it. Personally I find most of your posts as a smoke screen for an ax to grind over a jilted love relationship. I will always defend others from bigotry and spiritual bullying. As I have done for you in the past. But you are giving your share of it and I would sit by and just listen when I think your opinion is wrong. You let us know your opinion so I am letting you know mine. If you can not accept my words that I have true compassion for you so be it. No hey thank you Val for your kind words there. You just don't like the rest of what I have to say. Kinda like the Adventists will view what you have to say as hostile, HUH? EVERYONE It is time for me to go into a cease read and then lurk mode for a while. You can not argue or coerce love. And right now I am not feeling any love from any of you or feeling like giving any. And aside from two or three out there NO ONE has seemed to see or be able to comment or my posts about not judging and just loving. It is a mute point. If you all want to live in anger at the Adventists the rest of your life, so be it. I have just come to the realization that the "exposure" work this site does wil do nothing to get Adventist people to listen, it just reaffirms in their minds that they are persecuted and reaffirms in our minds how right we all are. Speak of self righteousness, we all spend the day just typing how much we all have the Gospel. Doesn't the Bible say none of us should boast? Oh yes, wait a minute, we aren't boasting when we are praising God for his revelation and tisk tisking those poor Adventists with the veil over their eyes. Actually, many of us have left Adventism and just changed one situation for another. We are still judging, criticizing, looking at other people, etc. we are still not open to working through the psychological ramifications as we have a phobia about psychological care. Oh I could go on but the definition of insanity is repeating yourself over and over again thinking that perhaps the results would be different the next time around..... Happy Easter all. Dress in your finest on that day. Get your high dose of Catholicism and paganism and when it is convenient for you, go back to bashing the Catholics and pagans again right along with those people the Adventists that we allegedly have a mission for. And by all means feel self righteous about having GRACE and an understanding of the Gospel message while your Adventist Brothers and Sisters do not. Valere | ||
| Violet |
Chyna, The church I was in last (SDA) there was a young girl (13) who accused a man in the church (not a member, just regular attendee) of toucing her breasts. The pastor was notified and the only way I found out was through the grapevine, although I have an 11 year old daughter. I understand that no jury found him guilty, but the church swept it under the rug. The man was still allowed to be around the children ect. Personally I do not know what would of been the proper action to be taken, but maybe a web site like this one would of helped the parent know how to handle this man with our girls. The church I attened did not screen who was allowed to teach in the children's rooms or go on a campout with the Pathfiners. I understand the need for a SDA specific resource, as many still stuggle with the taking another believer to court. | ||
| Lori |
I served on the church board for several years in a church in the Southern US--I was appalled at what they chose to "sweep under the rug". A family had wanted to transfer in to our church. However, the church tranferring the membership "out" offered the information that the father had had charges filed against him for sexual abuse three times. Our church accepted the wife and families memberships but denied the mans. The man was working in a childrens division. His daughters babysat and even had a few of those children spend the night in their home! It was suggested by a member of the board that we post a notification that a person was in our congregation on a regular basis that had been charged multiple times with sexual abuse just to bring it to the attention of the parents that our church was not necessarily a safe place to leave your children unattended. This request was of course denied! What was done? Absolutely nothing. The pastor told us all the we were not to take this information out of the board room, it was to be mentioned to no one. Our pastor had a 2 1/2 year old at the time, I had a 3 year old. I immediately made the comment, "So, you won't even tell your wife abou this so she can protect your son?" He had no reply. When questioned further he said, "We can't let this "out"; we could be sued for slander!" I replied "Oh, so you rather take the chance that a childs life could be ruined forever over something that you could have prevented, aren't there legal implications concerning that also. It's not like WE don't know". Again, no comment. I asked him one more time, "This isn't going to leave the board room, right? Your wife and son are not present here and therefore they should not ever have any knowledge of these sexual charges against this man, correct?" No reply. "Is your silence saying that you are going to tell your wife?" If so, then why should your wife receive information concerning the welfare of your child that you are denying the rest of the mothers of the congregation?" He never answered my questions. His only comment was "According to the conference we can take no action whatsoever to identify this man or even infact to make the congregation aware of the known existence of perpetrator in our congregation until such time that he actually convicted of a crime. Even then we can name no names". We weren't asking to put the persons name on something we were only asking that we be able to make the families in our church aware of the fact that such a person was in our congregation week after week. Keep your children with you. Our requests were denied. This individual was just a church member, he was not a pastor or an elder, but he remained working in the childrens division becoming a familiar figure to the children. (Sick isn't it?) If this is the cover up that a member receives then you can well know what kind of cover up surrounds a pastor. | ||
| Billtwisse |
Valerie accuses Chyna: Where were you with all your Easter self righteousness when GA and Bill were ridiculing me for celebrating LENT? That is one of the most outrageous and devilish accusations I have ever encountered! I did post a humorous (of the cynical type) and challenging post around a month ago, making fun of the Irish Catholic practice of 'pigging out' on fish and chips on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. This is something that I have witnessed in my personal life and community countless times. As others have already pointed out, I was in no way aiming my cynicism at Valerie. I had forgotten the details that she might have stated on this board (I haven't checked) of her particular observance of Lent--completely. I do remember some discussion of that issue earlier; when Valerie said she attended a liturgical church--but in no way did I have her primarily in mind with my comments. I myself have observed some form of 'seasonal abstinence' at numerous times. However, I think it is wise to observe the command of Christ--to not brag about your piety before men. If I observe any season of sacrifice and abstinence, it is very different from that of the hypocrites--and it will NEVER be on Good Friday (Christ did not die on a Friday). I eat 'fatted calf' on that day--to confuse the hypocrites and make them think that I am unspiritual. Let deceived men and women think that they are right! God will judge them quite apart of my opinion. Chyna, you have the Spirit of God in you--in spite of the accusations of other human beings. I love you in Christ! Really, where is former Adventism if it is not based on the Bible? It is still hung up on its Adventist roots in the 'foolish philosophy' (Colossians) of Methodism and Roman Catholicism. --Twisse | ||
| Colleentinker |
The work of the Holy Spirit is to convince us of the reality of Christ and to lead us continuously into truth. As people who used to be Adventists, we have certain vulnerabilities. One area where I've become aware of needing God's healing is in a type of reverse arrogance. (Other formers have said this same thing to me.) It's tempting, as Valerie pointed out, to feel arrogant because we now have the real truth! And I can say from experience, Adventists do have an intellectual arrogance and competetiveness! Spiritual things are intellectualized and analyzed--probably because most Adventists don't actually practice living with the power of the Holy Spirit. I'm speaking here from personal experience. I have become acutely aware that the arrogance I unconcsiously had as an Adventist was nonetheless real and offensive, and I have had to admit I've been arrogant and ask God to root it out of me. The flip side of this coin, however, is that telling the truth can sound accusing. Jesus asked us to speak the truth. He gave us his Spirit and commissioned us to proclaim the truth about Him. Proclaiming that truth often means pointing out deceptive fallacies. Jesus said many false prophets would come and deceive many, and Paul and the author of Hebrews give repeated and serious warnings not to be deceived and fall away. Psychological health and recovery (which I believe most if not all former Adventists need) is not separate from spiritual recovery. I frequently, in private conversations, recommend people to Christian counselors. Richard and I have gone to Christian counselors at various times in our lives, and we have received great blessings from the experiences. But psychological healing is not truly possible apart from spiritual healing. And spiritual healing is not possible unless we are willing to recognize, own, and tell the truth. The truth is the truth about our lives, ourselves, and our situations and relationships. It is also the truth about creation and the universe and science and history. And overarching all these truths is Jesus, who is himself the truth! All truth we learn and embrace, even personal truth, comes from Jesus. Satan does not deal in truth. Truth is seminal and life-changing, and it is a gift of God. Truth often sounds intolerant, but truth ultimately is the only way to spritual and psychological healing. By truth I do not mean cruelty--the thoughtless trampling of others' feelings by criticism or accusations. Truth from God is not always comfortable. It is often painful and demanding of us. But in truth lies freedom. This website is dedicated to people who have left Adventism. It is a place where we can speak of the truth God has been helping us to see, and it is a place where we can ask questions and share experiences. It is not a place dedicated to ministering specifically to Adventists, although they are welcome to be here. If they find it uncomfortable, though, that may be because they do not share our experiences. Their discomfort may not be so much that we are being insensitive as that they have not walked the path we have walked. I am not advocating insensitivity. But I am saying that we are obligated to build up one another in the Lord, and we are obligated to speak truth. We are obligated, as Christ-followers, to speak and act in love, even when we speak the truth. We are obligated to pray for those who oppose or attack us, whether they are Adventists or not. Grace is not something about which to boast. Grace is completely out of our hands, and it is available to everybody. Grace is something for which to praise God. I pray for all of us, and I pray that the Holy Spirit will be present on this site and will minister truth, peace, love, and healing to everyone who posts and lurks here. I praise God for his love and mercy which never let us go; I praise Jesus for making us his own, and I praise the Holy Spirit for persistently confronting us with the ways in which we need to grow and heal. Colleen | ||
| Billtwisse |
I'll just make a few points and then sign off for good. Anyone wanting further correspondence with me will have to go back into the archives and find my email address! I do not agree with all that Colleen has said above. However, out of respect for her, I will not enumerate my differences and resurrect issues that have already been debated. I will simply agree that we all need 'spiritual healing'--not as former Adventists--but as former citizens of the kingdom of darkness. I don't view Adventism as a unique heresy, although I was part of it a long time ago. For me, leaving it was simply a part of a spiritual journey out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. I think that evaluation constitutes the difference between myself and the mainstream who are posting here. I see Adventism as simply a very minor sect promoting some very major heresies that have been prominent ever since the 'great apostasy' started when Paul was still alive. As far as 'intellectual arrogance' is concerned, well, Paul was accused of the same thing. Much learning has made a lot of us mad. Me too! But the issue is whether we are taught of God or the philosophers of this world. You can't have it both ways. Either truth matters or it doesn't. Those who defend the gospel have a 'doctrine' (Acts 2:42) and believe that it is right. What was my contribution here? The most that I ever hoped to accomplish was be instrumental in causing some Christians to re-think their assumptions. I want believers to seek out further wisdom that is always available--wisdom from the Bible and from other great Christian minds (other than myself). This is not merely the professed 'instant answers' that are readily available in a local church or immediate sphere of associates. I have been accused on this board of promoting a God who is not worthy of our worship. Well, I will leave the truth or error of that proposition to the sovereign of the universe. I truly love all of you in Christ, --Twisse | ||
| Violet |
Friends, I find that old habits die hard. The way I was taught to relate to the "others" while in Adventism,( confident, that you know the truth,) is considered confrontational when used on the Adventist themselves. It is a learning process. I am learning a whole new way of talking to people, but please note I am learning not there yet. This is probably not real uncommon at this site. We all need to be patient with others as they progress though their transition into grace. in Christ Vi | ||
| Colleentinker |
Good point, Violet! Bill, if you check this board, know that we'll miss you. You have challenged us and made us think. And just because you're not posting does not mean you are out of mind. I'll still be praying for God's blessings on you! Colleen | ||
| Dennisrainwater |
Colleen, Thank you for taking a stand, and re-stating the purpose of this forum. I found it by chance a bit more than a year ago, and reveled in the sweet spirit and refreshing truth I found here. (Having just recently made my exit from Adventism at that point, I needed the healing and learning I found here.) I posted some -- here and there -- for quite a while. But, over time, an argumentative SDA or two, and two or three non- or former-SDA "hair-splitters" and their spirit of dissension seemed to to eclipse the warm, friendly rays of 'the truth, spoken in love' I had found at first here. I know that I am not the only one who had noticed this, as I have remained in e-mail contact with a couple of folks who felt similarly, and have also drifted away. I felt a rush of that old familiar 'fresh breeze' on my face as I read your above post. Thank you for having the courage to speak your mind. Perhaps I'll find the time to hang out here more often again. God's Peace to all, Den<>< | ||
| Colleentinker |
Welcome back, Dennis! Yes, I remember you, and we've missed you. Glad you're still around! Colleen | ||
| Sherry2 |
Well Chyna, that CEASE is a good site. I'm glad that there are SDA's dealing with the reality of the problem within the church. I found it so different when I attended the church I go to now where anyone who works with the children goes through Child Abuse Prevention classes at the church, children are protected on every side, you have to fill out an application to be certified to change diapers so they can do a police check on you and make sure you've got a clean record. I was like "Wow!" That was really awesome to me to see such regard for protecting the kids. When I was abused as an earliteen by other teen boys, I told my teacher on several occasions but nothing was done. It was my problem that I didn't stay in the teacher's sight constantly. Oh, and I could give tons of stories in high school boarding academies. So I am glad to see it being honestly dealt with rather than hiding behind it now. That is moving in the right direction. Thank you for your post Dennis. I certainly do not like to see unnecessary hostilities between people on the forum. It does no one any good. Violet, your post is right on for me as well. Learning to listen without defensiveness, learning to seperate beliefs from a person are important things we are all learning. I am daily. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Sherry, our church also requires those working with minors to be certified. I was really surprised and gratified when I learned that the church was requiring that. By the way, I share your concerns about boarding academies. I'm just so thankful that God wastes nothing and redeems everything, even the most shameful or embarrassing episodes of our past. Colleen | ||
| Sherry2 |
Good point to remember Colleen. I never thought of Him as redeeming our past and not wasting it. I just thought of the forgiveness aspect. I would love to see Him redeem some of my past. | ||
| Colleentinker |
He will/is, Sherry! He is so faithfuil. Colleen |
