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Valm
Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello there,

When I first came to FAF I was struck that the tone of "To our Adventists Friends" did not seem so friendly. And I wondered how many of us if we were on the receiving side of the correspondence would be receptive or defensive with the overall tone.

Now I wish to say that there have been many a time that I have participated in this. And I realize that I was attacking the very people I love, not the dysfunctional system in which they are captive.

I understand that all of us have been very hurt by Adventism and Adventist people. But if we were alcoholic or in a codependent relationship with an alcoholic, would we attack other alcoholics or would we wish to help them find therapy? Would it be more apporpriate to adress our anger on the dysfunction and the elements in our society that promote the dysfunction rather than the people themselves.

So I am starting this thread to discuss how can we speak to TRULY Our Friends the Adventists in the love we would wish to have given to us.

I welcome all suggestions to promote this idea.

Valerie
Valm
Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As some of you know, I have been studying Romans. And as some of you know I get a kick out of reading Peterson's translation of the New Testement entitled, "The Message" I am powerfully struck by his translation of Romans 14. It struck me over the last week that I often looked at it as talking to Adventists. But now I realize it is talking to me in how I deal with my Adventist loved ones. God really shook me up and said Hey Val, it is you I am talking too. So throuhout the next day I will type Romans 14 from The Message. Bit by Bit. The chapter is titled "Cultivating Good Relationships".

Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don't see things the way you do. And don't jump all over them every time they do or say something you don't agree with even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department. Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently.
For instance, a person who has been around for a while might well be convinced that he can eat anything on the table, while another, with a different background, might assume all Christians should be vegetarian and eat accordingly. But since both are guests at Christ's table, wouldn't it be terribly rude if they fell to criticizing what the other ate or didn't eat? God, after all, invited them both to the table. Do you have any business crossing people off the guest list or interfering with God's welcome? If there are corrections to be made or manners to be learned, God can handle that without your help.


How does this speak to you?

More later. I better get my day's work documented before the little guy gets home.
Valm
Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am back for a few minutes. Wow I have alot of work to do in my frienships both with Adventists and NONADVENTISTs!!!

I was struck at the different perspective. It is easy to view that the vegetarians of Romans 14 are the "weak" Christians. Perhaps I have taken that too literally and missed the message that irregaurdless of what the dietary habits are neither party should criticize.

More from "The Message"

Or, say, one person thinks that some days should be set aside as holy and another thinks that each day is pretty much like any other. There are good reasons either way. so, each person is free to follow the convictions of conscience.
What's important in all this it that if you keep a holy day, keep it for God's sake; if you eat meat, eat it to the glory of God and thank God for prime rib; if you're a vegetarian, eat vegetables to the glory of God and thank God for broccoli, None of us are permitted to insist on our own way in these matters. It's God we are answerable to, all the way from life to death and everything in between-not each other. That's why Jesus lived and died and then lived again: so that he could be our Master across the entire range of life and death, and free us from the petty tyrannies of each other.
So where does that leave you when you criticize a brother? And where does that leave you when you condescend to a sister? I'd say it leaves you looking pretty silly--or worse. Eventually, we're all goint to end up kneeling side by side in the place of judgment, facing God Your critical and condescending ways aren't going to improve your position there one bit. Read it for yourself in Scripture: "As I live and breathe, God says, every knee will bow before me: Every tongue will thell the honest truth that I and only I am God."


Wow. I have to go again. I hope to get to post later toight when life is at a dull roar here in my house. Would love some activity on this topic.

Valerie
Valm
Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am back. As long as the house stays calm. Continuing in "The Message"

Forget about deciding what's right for each other. Here's what you need to be concerned about: that you don't get in the way of someone else, making life more difficult than it already is. I'm convinced--Jesus convinced me!--that everything as it is in itself is holy. we, of course, by the way we treat it or talk about it, can contaminate it.
If you confuse others by making a big issue over what they eator don't eat, you're no longer a companion with them in love, are you? These, remember, are persons for whom Christ died. Would you risk sending them to hell over and item in their diet? don't you dare let a piece of God blessed food become an occasion of soul poisoning!
God's kingdom isn't a matter of what you put in your stomach, for goodness'sake. It's what God does with you life as he set it right, puts it together, and completes it with joy. Your task is to single mindedly serve Christ. Do that and you'll kill two birds with one stone; pleasing the God above you and proving your wother to the people around you.
So let's agree to use all our energy in getting along with each other. Help others with encouraging words; don't drag them down by finding fault. You're certainly no going to permit an arguement over wat is served or not served at supper to wreck God's work among you, are you? I said it before and I'll say it again: all food is good, but it can turn bad if you use it badly, if you use it to trip others up and send them sprawling. when you sit down to a meal, your primary concern should not be to feed your own face but to share the life of Jesus. So be sensitive and courteous to the others who are eating. Don't eat or say of do things that might interfere with the free exchange of love.
Cultivate you own relationship with God, but don't impose it on others. You're fortuate if your behavior and your beliefs are coherent. But if you're not sure, if you notice that you are acting in ways inconsistend with what you believe-some days trying to impose your opinions on others, other days just trying to please them-then you know that you're out of line. If the way you live isn't consistent with what you believe, then it's wrong.


End of Chapter 14! Today when reading this chapter I couldn't help but feel that for me God was speaking to me to go beyond food. That while food was used because it certainly applies to the principles here (as well as days of worship) this was meant to learn a principle that reaches beyone the two examples.

Due to the obvious relationship that both food and holy days have to the SDA's unique beliefs it has been my tendency to think "AHA SDA's look what the Lord has said". Today I am hearing, "AHA Valerie, Look at what God is saying to you about how you treat others, all people of all beliefs....."

Friends of FAF forgive me if I have been or seemed critical of you. One of you has (in private) lovingly named me Val-uh-tol. I truly try to keep my words directed at issues not people. And I am a very passionate person. And I will try to keep that part of me in better check.

And SDA folks, forgive me if my opinions on your doctrinal beliefs strike you as critical and condescending. It is not directed at you; it is directed at the doctrine. I would sincerely like to consider each and every one of you as my Friends, The Adventists.

Valerie
Doug222
Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie,
I love the language the author used in his paraphrase. Yes, he's absolutely right, when we start judging others for what they are or are not doing (or do or do not believe), we show that we do not have a complete understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit. God, patiently works with each of us to bring us to a full knowledge of the truth (isn't it great to realize that this is not a set of denominational doctirnes). I think God is helping me to see that with my newfound understanding of grace, that I should not use it as a tool to beat someone over the head with. If they have not come to understand things the way I've been shown, it is not convince them otherwise--that is the work of the Holy Spirit. By the same token, I do not have to be at the same level as others. I can "rest" in His promise that He who has begun a good work in me is faithful..." and thet "His grace is made perfect in weakness." This is true freedom! Praise God for His mercies.

In His Grace and Lovin' it

Doug
Valm
Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well I am headed off to slumber land. But wish to close the thread I started with a prayer I found. I found it on christians-in-recovery.org which is a site one of my fellow FAFers reccommended to me.

I struggle with minor addictive behavior as well as petty dysfunctional behavior. One of those petty things is balancing whether what I am pursuing with an individual is really of help to either of us or not. This is something I am evaluating in my participation here at FAF

So here is the prayer I found.

Dear Lord, I humbly come before you this day to ask that you give me one more day of wholeness.
Free me of all cravings, addictive and dysfunctional behavior.
Show me how I can serve you this day instead of serving false idol and obcessions.
Fill me with your strength, that I may have hope.
Guide me, that I may walk in your path and not mine.
Cast out all darknes within me and replace it with light,
That I may shine before others who need a helping hand.
Sherry2
Posted on Friday, March 30, 2001 - 6:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Valerie so much!! You, to me, are such an incredible blessing. I needed those words too. I tend to end up hating them (not wanting it to be but finding it so) when it needs to be about grieving the lies, and not the people themselves. I often have felt the same about those words. I know I judge too harshly. I guess it's hard knowing where to stand when my husband is still SDA. I get frustrated and torn. Why doesn't he see? And I'm constantly reminding myself "God's time, not your time." Learning to trust my maker for His will be done. But how I hunger to go to church with my hubby week to week. But thank you. I have realized that the judmental attitude I gained in SDAism can haunt me in this new Christian walk as well, and do I want that? I just want to get on with the business of learning to walk in Christ, and enjoy the fellowship of all believers.

Thanks a million.

Hey are you a member of CIR? I was for a long time and I've got one friend over there I still e-mail to. See 12 step programs are not just for alcys and druggies...it's for all of us in my humble opinion. :)
Valm
Posted on Friday, March 30, 2001 - 6:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry,
I did not sign up for the membership on CIR as one site of communication is about all I can handle. But found the PRAYERS and some of the other information very helpful. I would reccommend the site to anyone who wished further support though.

Although my husband is not and never was an SDA. He is not a regular church going person and I long for that too. There was a point and time that I would use various "cards" to hang over him to make him go. But what a foolish thing to do. He was miserable and hence I was too. Now when he goes from time to time, I am absolutely thrilled and when he doesn't I just pray for then next time that he will. YOU CANNOT COERCE BELIEF no matter whether you are male or female, husband or wife, parent or child. You can only love and live your daily walk with Jesus.

It is my belief that there is not a single person on this forum who wishes to hurt, demean, condescend an Adventist sister or brother. I think we do it from time to time due to our own deep UNRESOLVED HURT, ANGER and GRIEF. And also due to our own insecurities about the spiritual decisions we have made. We therefore misplace our emotions. It is that way for me atleast.

I hope that all of you realize that this was the spirit of intent in my postings. It is that all of us, particularly me, can regain a focus on what is happening inside of us and HEAL. It is so that we will take a course of action that will also enable healing for those still within the SDA faith. Remember we were there once too and we did our share of damage to others (unwittingly so). And until we really let God heal us we will continue to do damage to others on this side of SDAism.

God Bless all of you and have a great morning.

Valerie
Valm
Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2001 - 7:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am resurrecting my topic! Why? Becuase I am deeply impressed that all of us need to work toward ths goal of truly embracing our friends the Adventists with the love and compassion they need to come out of the doctrine they are suffering in. This does not mean just loving the ones that come here ready to come out of Adventism, those are the easy ones. But loving those who have their feet firmly planted in their faith and represent all of the hurt we experienced under the doctrine.

All of us have been hurt. All of us have real needs. All of us have felt the anger reguarding our experiences. All of us are somewhere in the grieving process over this. But unless we work on this when we say "OUR FRIENDS" it will only smack of the contempt we are feeling. Which will never accomplich the comission our LORD JESUS has given us to teach the gospel message.

I care for each and everyone of you. But I am distressed at the angry voices towards this group of people that I hear. Remember they are living in their on suffering! It is our duty under the new comandment of Jesus to love them and give them our compassion. We are servants to them!!

I would appreciate some discussion here on how we could turn the emotional climate of our forum and the emotional tone when using the phrase Our Friends the Adventists to one of warmth and welcome to the most hardened of Adventists!
Colleentinker
Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2001 - 12:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've missed you all for many days! I've been up to my ears in grading essays, etc. Grades are due this coming Tuesday, and next week I begin a two-week Easter break! I can hardly wait!! One thing I love about my school is that they give as much importance to Easter as to Christmas. They intentionally call the spring break Easter break, and they make sure we're out of school over Easter, even though we're out-of-sync with many other schools' spring vacations. (We're especially out-of-sync with the Adventist schools' vacationsóthey were out this week.)

Easter (Richard and I often call it Resurrection Sunday) is one of the most wonderful new realities of our new lives as Christ-followers. We've been studying Hebrews in our Friday evening Bible studies, and the reality of what Jesus did is so overwehlming that sometimes it makes me feel like crying. His death was not just a legal requirement. His shed blood actually healed an invisible but very real chasm in the universe: sin. Humanity was literally prevented from being in contact with God after Adam and Eve sinned, and Jesus' blood created a new, "living way" for us to directly approach Christ.

In Hebrews 10 it points out that the division between the Holy and the Most Holy was forever destroyed when the curtainóChrist's bodyówas torn. Jesus himself was the one who stood between sinful humanity and the glory of God, saving us from destruction and saving us for salvation. When He died, his blood healed the rip in the universe, and we can now be again in the presence of God.

Without the resurrection, however, we would not have had eternal life. Jesus' death healed the rift of sin, but it was his resurrection that gave us eternal life so we could live in the reality of forgiveness! And it was his ascension that made it possible for Jesus to send us the Holy Spirit. (He said that he would not be able to send the Holy Spirit unless he returned to his Father.) But the Holy Spirit is what (who) gives us the new birth.

It is amazing and overwhelming that Jesus became human and literally took all of humanity's curse on himself and gave us his life. It is one of the great joys of my life that I can now celebrate the meaning of Easter (Resurrection Sunday).

It's interesting to me that the church's major holidays have been attached to significant pagan holy days. Christmas is associated with the winter soltice, and Resurrection Sunday is associated with Easter, a fertility holiday. Even though the organized church may have intentionally made these connections in the early centuries after Christ's life with the intention of making Christianity politically acceptable, that possibility does not negate the fact that Jesus' death and resurrection are the most powerful events in history. What Jesus did far outshines what Satan tries to make people believe.

Celebrating Jesus' resurrection is not remotely related to celebrating a pagan holiday. When I think of Easter and Christmas now, instead of seeing them as more or less unholy and un-Christian, I think of them as having been transformed from celebrations of darkness into revelations of light. In the same way that Jesus' death transformed the most heinous of symbols, the cross, into a symbol of love and redemption, so his birth and resurrection have transformed pagan celebrations into days that glorify Jesus!

I love the way Jesus tranforms everything he touches. I love the way he reveals more and more truth as we live in commitment to him. One of my growing discoveries is that the longer I am gone from Adventism and the more I study the Bible, the more sinister and evil I realize Adventism is. But the flip side of this discovery is that I feel increased conviction to pray for my Adventist friends. I feel less and less like I want to avoid contact with them, and instead I feel that God is asking me to hold certain of them in continuing prayer.

I find it fascinating that growing up Adventist we could indulge in an Easter-egg hunt on the lawn, and the Easter bunny was a cute if fictional fantasy--sort-of like Santa Claus. In fact, many if not most kids I knew got Easter baskets and/or colored eggs and enjoyed a little frolic on Easter morning.

At the same time, however, it was not OK to celebrate Easter in a religious way. Easter was Catholic at best and pagan at worst. Sunday, of course, could not be--even once a year--a day of worship. I know Adventists who still disdainfully talks of Easter by saying they wouldn't dream of honoring the "venerable day of the sun".

Yes, Adventists may have had it right that Easter is descended froom a pagan holiday. But that doesn't make the Resurrection pagan, and that doesn't mean we can't celebrate the resurrection on Easter! It does seem a bit contradictory that as Adventists we could participate at home in the pagan Easter symbols, yet disdain the celebration at church of Jesus' resurrection!

I'm realizing that as I discover the reality of living in Christ, the secular symbols of Christmas and Easter seem trivial and out-of-place. Santa and reindeer, bunnies and eggs, although cute, really don't mean anything to me on those holidays.

As former Adventists we are called, I believe, to love our Adventist friends. It is never appropriate to humiliate or belittle them. We have no room for arrogance. We are also called, however, to speak the truth as God makes it clear to us. That may sometimes hurt our Adventist friends' feelings, but if we are speaking in love and not from a desire to win, we have to leave the results in God's hands.

I ask God to help me say what he wants me to say whenever I post on the forum. That doesn't mean I always communicate my ideas clearly or "right", but I do want God to direct my thoughts and responses. I believe that if we all made it a practice to pray as we post, we would discover that we would allow God to speak through us and to change our own feelings and perceptions to reflect him more.

The beauty of life in the body of Christ is that no two people are alike or have the same function. He gives his gifts as he determines they should be given, and he assigns us our work.

I praise God for everyone here, and I pray for us all.

Praising Jesus for his amazing sacrifice,
Colleen
Valm
Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2001 - 8:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

You have a positive approach to both holidays which I believe was the aproach of the early church.

I enjoy both aspects of the holiday although I am not crazy about seeing them intertwined. I would rather our church did not have an egg hunt for the children but did somehting more spiritually symbolic. Although at Anthony's birthday party yesterday we had an egg hunt as kids love them irreguardless of the date on the calendar. (What a party 16 boys 5 and 6 years of age!)

My favorite part of the Easter holdiday is participating in Holy Week services. These services take you through the last supper, garden to Gesthemame (SP?)cucifiction and death of our Savior. They just prepare me so much more for the wonders of Resurrection Sunday. (By the way did you know that the Jehovah Witnesses have a Sunday in May I think which they call and celebrate Ressurection Sunday?) The REsurrection Sunday is a wonderful climatic point to this week long celebration.

I suppose it is a matter of where and when you grew up. When I was younger we were still allowed to indulge in the ancient pagan rituals. But I do know now that my brothers will not allow their kids to do so. They have gradually become more conservative as well as live in a more conservative area of the country.

Why don't they? Their reasons for not celebrating both the spiritual and the pagan aspects of the holiday I have mentioned before and are consistent to the remainder of their beliefs. It has nothing to do with a deemphasis of the resurrection.

While it is a good and joyous thing that we are free to celebrate and enjoy both, it is not a good thing for us to presume why and criticize our dear Adventist Brothers and Sisters over this matter. I can only respect them for following the dictates of their beliefs and conscience.

Is there anyone brave enough to come out of their closet and say that they can have respect for our Adventist friends on this doctrinal difference?

Valerie
Chuckiej
Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2001 - 9:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One thing about Easter, rather than Christmas is that Easter takes place on the day when the events actually happened. Many commentators think Christ was crucified on a Friday Passover, which places his Resurrection on the Sunday following. And of course Easter falls during the Passover season.

Growing up Adventist, I never got into the habit of celebrating Easter, although I see nothing wrong with it. I don't think it's necessary to emphasize Christ's sacrifice. The Lord gave us His supper to remember His death (Mt. 26:28, Lk. 22:19, I Cor 11:26). Also, those who seek a strict division between paganism and Christ aren't unscriptural. On the one hand, Paul seems to advocate this mind-set in 1 Cor 10 and 2 Cor. 6. On the other hand, with the food sacrificed to idols, he seems to be saying it's not wrong in itself, but it could be if it causes one to stumble. I suppose it's another one of those issues for everyone to be fully persuaded in their own mind.

Collen, I certainly understand your love fro the book of Hebrews. It's my favorite book of the NT outside the Gospels. Sometime if they're talking about something dull in church, I'll break out my Bible and start reading form it! lol. It's truly a beautiful illustration of Christ's work on our behalf.
Chyna
Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2001 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

it just seems to me like celebrating the day of Christ's resurrection is far more important than any other day, as Collen pointed out one of the two events that changed the destiny of mankind. The only reason we can have life is because Jesus conquered the gates of hell. And I still think that Adventists not celebrating the day of Christ's resurrection reflects their attitude toward Salvation.

Chyna
Chuckiej
Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2001 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it's dangerous to impose unscriptural litmus tests on people to determine whether the Resurrection is really important to them. If celebrating that day were so important, we would have a clear scriptural command to do so. However, no such command exists, even in I Cor. 15, which is Paul's most extensive treatment of the issue of Christ's Resurrection. I think it's pretty clear that SDA's aversion to Easter comes from 1) its connection with Sunday worship and 2) its pagan origins. To say it has to do with some devaluation of Salvation is inflammatory and unfounded.
Chyna
Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2001 - 3:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's not unfounded. Salvation is the direct result of the Christ's resurrection.
Doug222
Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2001 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna,
Why is what someone else does such an important issue to you. I say this in love, but you've been "beating this drum" for over a week now. If you want to celebrate Easter, no one is condemning you. Have the same courtesy for others to choose to do (or not do) something where there is no clear scriptural mandate.

Doug
Lori
Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2001 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's what Adventist think of other Christians:

"I am instructed to say to Seventh-day Adventists the world over, God has called us as a people to be a peculiar treasure unto Himself. He has appointed that His church on earth shall stand perfectly united in the Spirit and counsel of the Lord of hosts to the end of time".--Letter 54, 1908. EGW (Jan. 21, 1908.)

Do you notice how "God" only instructed EGW to tell Adventist that they were his treasure? Here lies the basis for-I'd rather be known as an Adventist than a Christian!

The only way to make this site "pleasing" to Adventist is for all of us to take the Adventist view and abandon ours.
Chuckiej
Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2001 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is unfounded is the charge that Adventists don't value Salvation or the Resurrection because they don't celebrate Easter. Easter is not necessary to honor the Resurrection because if it were, there would be a command in Scripture to observe it as such. There is no such command.
Chyna
Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2001 - 6:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug, what you and Chuck are fixated is on a command/lack of command.

I'm also disappointed that it seems like you are saying Doug, that I can't express my thoughts or opinions about SDAism. and that bothers me greatly because this is a forum, and not supposed to be dictated by one person or another. I can post all I want about Easter and the negligence of SDAs. you can't understand how odd it is for a Christian to hear that SDAs don't really celebrate the resurrection of Christ. :), what I'm trying to say is it's really odd! to a Christian! to many Christians :) that SDAs act in this manner. That is my point and from it is all a matter of interpretation, which I am free to do.

Next time the books open up on my life and why my SDA ex and I broke up. I'm going to tell them:

A. they think Jesus is Michael the Archangel
B. they think there is going to be a National Sunday Law
C. that they think that celebrating Easter is paganistic.

and just watch the jaws drop, cos they always do, Christians and nonChristians.

What I'm fixated on is the spirit behind the negligence.

Dear Lori, I agree with you completely, the only way to make FAF palatable to SDAs is to pander to their doctrine.

it's important to realize we're dealing with people involved in a cult, spiritually blinded beings. there isn't anything we can say or do that isn't offensive because our beliefs directly controvert theirs.

in Him, Chyna
Chyna
Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2001 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and furthermore my discussion of Easter has never been about the validation of the day for me, i have never felt badly about the day :), ever. I was curious about the the decided lack of hullaboo by the SDA church about celebrating Christ's Resurrection. Do SDAs celebrate Christmas? I think they do.

and Doug, there is no drum to bang <- I find that expression rather condescending. I can have my theories about SDAism and their neglect of Easter. And have freedom to post them on the forum, speculative or not.

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