| Author | Message | ||
| Doug222 |
I would like to share two amazing websites with the other forum members. Both will bring tears to your eyes. One will bring tears of laughter (or sorrow depending on your perspective) and the other will bring tears of joy. The first is found at www.adventistreview.org. Look at the past editions and look at the feature article for March 15th. The title of the article is "My Journey to Graceland." It is the story of one man's journey to a newfound "understanding" of grace. I do not fault the man because we are all on the same road, but at different stages. I am appalled that the SDA Church would put make this the feature article in their official publication. It says a lot about their "understanding" of grace. The other site is found at www.wcg.org. This is the official website for the Worldwide Church of God. As many of you know, the WCG has had beliefs that were very similar to adventism. In the last several years, they have come to understand that they were wrong. The church has made a public statement of this and has adaped its beliefs--even at the cost of money, membership, and public opinion. For example, they now acknowledge that the Sabbath is not binding on Christians under the new covenant. In most locations they continue to meet on Sabbath, but not out of obligation. They simply do not feel compelled to change the day they worship simply because they have received new understanding (in fact, some of their congregations do meet on Sunday). I am not endorsing the WCG. I do not know much about them, and even if I did, I would not want to suggest that they were the "true" church because I (as do they) do not believe there is any such thing. I place this information here to say how impressed I am that an organization would be willing to do this. When you go to the site, you HAVE to read their "Brief History." What an amazing difference between the perspectives on these two sites. What are your thoughts? | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Doug, Jeremiah 31:34 and Hebrews 8:12 and surrounding text's are a study all of themselves. But at face value when I look at this and other "forgiveness" text's, I must disagee with Keavin Hayden: "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." Keavin said: "Memories are found in the form of jewels, Cadillacs, photos of worldly success, **records** hanging on walls, and of course, Presleyís grave." And: "Itís another story of one humanís quest to find happiness and contentment in a world not conducive to such mental luxuries. There are no jewels, no Cadillacs. **There are lots of records, but these are of sin.** Thatís why the glory of my story is about the King of Graceland, Jesus Christ." I just fail to see how he could honestly be in Graceland when there are "lots of records" of sin???? Are they his sins?? I had to conclude that they were because it was about his OWN journey. As to my own personal SDA upbringing. This extremism that he so vividly described was a carbon copy of my upbringing. Some of the remnants of the offshoot of SDAism I was raised in are in Arkansas. That name is very familiar to me and will ask my "offshoot" friend if Keavin is connected to my old offshoot group. Yes, this was an amazing story for the Review to publish! I can only praise God that I don't have to focus on MYSELF and what I do to maintain my salvation like I felt was a focal point in Keavin's story. I praise God that He died for all my sins, past, present and future. I praise God that He remembers my sins no more. I praise God that all this is possible by my believing in Him. I praise God that He sent the Holy Spirit to live in me, to guide me, correct me and the peace and security I enjoy by Grace alone though Christ alone! Maryann.....IBC=Insured By Christ | ||
| Dennis |
Doug, I discovered that despite the Worldwide Church of God changing many of their beliefs, they are still actively struggling with legalism in their churches. One lady told me she is thinking about visiting an Adventist church after her local WCG switched worship times from Saturday to Sunday. Some of their churches have services on both Saturday and Sunday to accommodate the divided views in their midst. Many are still loyal to the teachings of the Old Covenant and the late Herbert Armstrong. Others, in the WCG, are still emotionally attached to festival observances. Some still will not participate in communion services more frequently than once a year during the Passover season(like they traditionally believed). It is, indeed, very difficult for an entire denomination to change its belief system without many problems(i.e., the loss of members and financial support). Also, many still hesitate in publicly sharing their faith in the community. Still others believe that New Covenant teachings should only be mentioned, if at all, in private conversation. Sadly, even some of their sermons, by lay leaders, are often legalistic. Let's pray for these dear brothers and sisters in their pursuit of Biblical truth. Corporate belief transitions(like personal belief transitions), at best, are not without trauma. Initially, many members were not well instructed about the changes in a solid Biblical manner. The pastor's were not familiar with some of the new teachings themselves; this brought added confusion and discord in many of their churches. I wholeheartedly applaud the WCG leadership in their new paradigm of faith. Joseph Tkach's book, TRANSFORMED BY TRUTH, is a must-read. They have already paid a heavy price, as a denomination, for teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. Dennis J. Fischer Email: fischerdj@msn.com | ||
| Doug222 |
Thanks for the information Denis. What you are saying makes perfect sense. I would not expect an entire denomination to make that kind of transition easily. Just imagine if the SDA's should suddenly shift their focus. There would certainly be much turmoil. Its interesting that you would write this today, because I ran across a woman today who was having difficulty with an issue on her job. During the course of the discussion I learned she was a member of a group that kept the seventh-day Sabbath, and looked forward to the soon coming of Jesus; however, they are not part of an "organized" church. It peaked my interest, so I asked her if she was SDA. She told me that the group to which she belonged used to be SDA, but not any longer because the SDA Church was an apostate church. She said they had departed from the teachings of their "founding fathers." I asked her if she was involved with Shepherd's Rod. She said she had heard of them, but she was not part of that group. I then asked her if she'd heard of Janine Centron (sp). She said Janine was a part of their church. As it turns out, I knew this woman from several years ago. She and a friend attended the SDA church, but left because they did not think the church was following our teachings strictly enough--particularly in the area of the health message. I say all this to say that even if the church were to suddenly "see the Light" (pun intended), there would be those who would refuse to change, and I am sure there would be those who would go along in body, but "stay put" in mind. By the way, how do you have knowledge of the WCG? Have you had personal involvement? In His Grace (and growing more everyday) Doug | ||
| Sherry2 |
I vouch for the Transformed by Truth book. Very awesome story. Sounded so much like SDa, I couldn't believe it. It was a very helpful book when I was leaving. It is such a blessing that God got that book to me just when I was leaving! That is such a miracle of God. A friend pointed it out to me, and she had purchased one for myself. She had been dilegently studying to help me and to understand the Sabbath issue herself (she's a Baptist friend of mine). Just so cool how God works! | ||
| Colleentinker |
I agree; Transformed by Truth is a wonderful book. I interviewed Joe Tkach when I was managing editor for Adventist Today, and we talked at length about the changes his church and his family specifically were facing. Their experience with backing away from the Sabbath as a divine mandate was exactly like our experience. He told me the leaders of the WWCG (the transformed church, not the old one), were considering establishing Sunday services in addition to the Saturday ones for the very reason that they didn't want to subconsciously hold onto Sabbath keeping as a sort-of insurance plan in case it was required. I recommend the book (Transformed by Truth) to anyone who hasn't read it. Praising God for freedom, Colleen | ||
| Doug222 |
I looked it up on Amazon.com today. Most of the reviews on the book were not that favorable. Granted, these folks were former members, but they felt like he left a lot of information out. If I get the chance, I'll look at it myself, but the book is currently out of print. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Dennis |
Doug, My perceptions of the Worldwide Church of God are entirely first-hand. My wife and I attended the local WCG for several months because we basically agreed with their doctrinal statement. Also, we felt they could use our encouragement in their new paradigm of faith. We eventually felt that we needed more spiritual food than they were dispensing. Being many were still struggling with legalism, we felt that having been a part of the Adventist brand of legalism was more than sufficient without adding another version to our spiritual journey. We felt somewhat deceived by their online statement of beliefs versus a different reality in the church we attended. While attending their church, we did meet people from several other nearby congregations that seemed similarly unwilling and/or uninformed to fully embrace the new covenant teachings of Jesus. Having an active, online chaplaincy ministry, I still regularly communicate with some WCG members. They are wonderful people; we do miss seeing them regularly. Pray that their doctrinal changes will someday penetrate every heart. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sherry2 |
If you have a Family Christian bookstore where you live, they may still have the book Doug. They do here in Michigan on the clearnance racks for $4 right now. I picked myself up a few to share. Call any of your local christian bookstores and they might be able to locate you one where you live. | ||
| Cas |
I have also read Transformed by Truth. Our Family Christian Book store has them for $2.97! I should pick up some extras also. It is well worth the read. | ||
| Colleentinker |
It's interesting to hear the stories, such as yours, Dennis, about recent contacts with "reformed" WCG congregations. It really underscores that conversion is individual. Even when a person is confronted with truth and accepts it, as did the WCG leaders, even though they acted with integrity and changed the doctrinal statements and attempted to lead the church into the New Covenant, the members didn't necessarily want to change. I've heard people I respect say they're praying that the Adventist Church will repent of its deception and embrace the New Covenant, but even if the leadership did, the church may not follow. You can't, it seems, standardize and legislate conversion and truth any more than you can legislate morality and have it truly work. Ultimately we each must decide whether or not to respond to Jesus. Yhat response leads us only to him, and he puts us in fellowship with other believers. It makes me sad to think that there are so many WCG congregations who have "stuck with" the official church as they attempted to change, but the people apparently haven't internalized the reality of living in grace. If your local bookstore still has a copy of Transformed by Truth, however, it's well worth the read. Joe Tkatch told me that much of what he originally put in the book, details he condsidered to be some of the most significant information, had to be left out on the advice of the church's legal counsel. Thanking God for Truth, Colleen |
