| Author | Message | ||
| Valm |
Hello Everybody, While helping my neighbor with and art project with fourth graders the other day, the teacher had to instruct some boys on being culturally sensitve with their manners. You see the art project had strong Japanese influence. One of the boys piped up and said, "I bet the Japanese kids make fun of us." It would be funny if this thinking was limited to childhood. But I see this thinking sometimes here on FAF. Yes I know that SDAs are noted to be judgemental of other faiths and see themselves as God's peculiar people. Yes all of us could give countless stories of how we have been hurt. But to continue this behavior towards them once we have received the Gospel message is going against the comission Jesus gave us to love one another. One of the things that I absolutely abhored about being in a doctrine that seems to drive judgemental behavior was that behavior. I just find it distressing to come here and find the same thing going on. Now all of you formers KNOW why Adventists do not keep Easter. It has nothing to do with their deep appreciation for the death and resurrection of Jesus. Let us not make it into something it is not and give them some respect. Now Chyna PLEASE reread the posts, all of them and try to see the positive possibilities in the Adventist point of view. Trust me they do not deemphasized the historical act of the death and resurection of Jesus. They just have a strong comittment to not align themselves with anything that has pagan roots or roots in Roman Catholic theology. Now all of you. I have heard many of you out there make negative comments about the RC church also. You can not get anymore RC than celebrating EASTER! Why is it that you will ignore this despite the verbalizations I have heardc here of the RC church being cult like? I am astounded that such digging the heals in the ground and criticizing our ADVENTIST Brothers and Sisters is happening. It not only is counter to Christ's comission to love but also defies logic. Please all of you rethink your position on this one and seriously ask how much of your positon is due to the misplaced anger you have from the things you have suffered. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
I started this thread to promote the idea of how we could better enable ourselves to treat our Adventist Brothers and Sisters like they truly are our friends. Could we get back to that? Valerie | ||
| Valm |
WE have been singing this song in our church for communion through the season of lent. And I love it. It has spoken to my heart on what Jesus wishes us to do for him. Here it is: I the Lord of sea and sky, I have heard my people cry. All who dwell in deepest sin My hand will save. I who made the stars of night. I will make their darkness bright. Who will bear my light to them Whom shall I send? Here I am, Lord, Is it I, Lord? I have heard you calling in the night. I wil go, Lord. If you lead me, I will hold your people in my heart. I, the Lord of snow and rain, I have borne my people's pain. I have wept for love of them, They turn a way. I will break their hearts of stone, Give them hearts for love alone. I will speak my word to them. Whom shall I send? Here I am, Lord,....... I the Lord of wind and flame, I will tend the poor and lame. I will set a feast for them, My hand will save. Finest bread I will provide, Till their hearts be satisfied. I will give my life to them, Whom shall I send? Here I am, Lord. It is I Lord? I have heard you calling in the night. I will go, Lord. If you lead me. I will hold your people in my heart. I wished I could put the tune down. It is just wonderful. It is the best song I have heard on following our calling to love and serve one another. Valerie | ||
| Doug222 |
Amen Val! When I "really" began to question some very foundational doctrines of the SDA Church (rather tha just make excuses for them), a very wise friend counseled me not to condmem anything "just" because it was adventist. The church has much to be commended for, but like the seven churches of Revelation (and any church I imagine), it has room for considerable growth. I am thankful that God's mercy extends to it, just like everyone else. I agree with Val that the focus of our discussion should be on reflecting the image of our Lord and Saviour and not on casting dispersions against individuals or groups because they have not reached the same state of enlightenment that we have. 1 Cor 6 reminds me that the righteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God....and such was I before I was washed in the blood of Jesus (my paraphrase). Thank you for being the voice of reason on this forum Val. Chyna, I apologize if I offended you by my language. That was certainly not my intent, but my response was judgemental none-the-less. Please forgive me. In His Grace, Doug | ||
| Valm |
The purpose of this thread is not to make it pleasing to Adventist people. I hope I did not say that. It is to make it clear that we speak in LOVE and proclaim the Gospel message in LOVE. That we do not criticize them or boast for what we have. They we do not judge lest we be judged. I keep coming back to I Corinthians 13 when I think about this issue (Along with Romans 14 above) There is the predominate theme of how love is supreme and without it we are nothing. There in the chapter it tells us that our own knowledge is dim. WE HERE ON FAF WHO PROCLAIM THE GOSPEL EVEN WE DO SO DIMLY!!!!! I will write the text here for all of us. Let us LOVE LOVE LOVE even those that it is hard to do so. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal, If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. LOVE is patient, love is kind. It does not envy it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking. It is not easily angered, it keeps no records of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It alway PROTECTS, always trusts, always hopes, always perserveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.For we know in part and prophecy in part but when PERFECTION COMES the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror, then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. I would love to be able to boast of the Gospel but the more my eyes become opened the more I realize how closed they still are. While I am grateful not to be under the Adventist doctrine anymore, it would be fool hardy for me to think I have anything on my Adventist brothers and sisters in this catagory, I still see so DIMLY. God bless all of us in this love endeavour. Valerie | ||
| Chuckiej |
Chyna, What I'm "fixated" on is that you claim that SDA's don't celebrate the resurrection b/c they don't celebrate Easter. How can that be? Did Christians before the institution of Easter not honor the Resurrection? Where does God say it's not good enough that I thank him for it everyday? That's why I'm "fixated" on a command. Without that, on what basis are you demeaning Someone else's servant for their observance of the Resurrection? | ||
| Colleentinker |
My experience of over 40 years in Adventism has taught me that the real problem with Adventists and Easter is not the pagan origins. The Easter question can be compared to the Adventist's health message. Adventism publicly states that its health message is not a religious or a salvation issue but a HEALTH issue. Those who do not grow up in the church understand the words and believe the message. Even many Adventists convince themsleves that health is the only reason for their dietary do's and dont's. Of course it's more healthful to eat vegetarian diets if they're balanced! But health is not the real, bottom-line reason Adventists preach a health message. The real reason Adventists teach the health message, although it's seldom verbally stated, is that Ellen White taught it. It's part of being a peculiar people. Ellen even said that those who eat meat when Jesus comes again will not be translated. I remember learning that for the first time when I was in jr. high school and, in a fit of guilt and fear, deciding that I really couldn't indulge in turkey with my Eastern-European family at Thanksgiving anymore. The unclean meats are even more serious offenses. Abstinence from unclean meats was on an equal par with not drinking or smoking. One could not be Adventist and eat pork or shellfish. These resitrictions were not biblical, and they were not health issues. They were requirements of the church's founding fathers and mother. As the years passed, Adventists focused on the health benefits of vegatarian diets to justify their "peculiarities". Today the real reason for the restricitions is scarcely mentioned, but it still exists. The fact that we don't talk about the real, bottom-line issues does not mean they have gone away. The Easter question is a similar issue. No one will argue with the pagan fertility origins of Easter eggs and bunnies. But in my experience, Adventists have used those pagan origins as an excuse not to celebrate the resurrection. Adventists originally did not teach that Jesus was God--merely the Son of God. It wasn't until EGW published The Desire of Ages that church theologians read that she now was saying that Jesus was actually God. James White was originally blatantly Arian. When I was growing up I never heard why the resurrection was so important. In fact, I heard that Jesus' death was important, but I never heard exactly why it was important. His death was like a piece of the puzzle: I couldn't be saved without it, but I could still miss salvation even if I accepted his death. Over the past twenty years a "new" Adventist intepretation of Jesus' death has evolved. It may not be the official one, but it is widely believed by many people from devotees of Graham Maxwell to followers of the 1888 message. This new interpretation says that God is fundamentally loving and forgiving. He could have forgiven us just because he wanted to, no death necessary--but he allowed Jesus to be killed to prove to us the depth of our depravity. Jesus' death, in other words, was an object lesson to convict us of our desperate degradation. We trampled the divine forgiveness and killed the Christ. The Bible, however, says that Jesus' blood was absolutely necessary to atone for sin. There was no other way atonement could happen. God, for whatever reason beyond our finite comprehension, could not forgive our sins without the blood of Jesus. That's why Jesus is the Lamb slain from the creation of the earth. Before God created us, Jesus was already slain in eternity. It just had to be worked out in time. Jesus pleaded in Gethsemane for the cup to pass by him, but he accepted God's will. It was God's will that he die. That is why Jesus came to the earth. He did not come to the earth to destroy sin by living sinlessly. He came to earth to destroy sin by dying. But only a sinless Savior who was both man and God could die a death capable of atoning for sin. Jesus' death paid for the curse of sin. Jesus' death opened a living way for us to approach God. But here's the second part I never learned as an Adventist. Jesus' resurrection is what grants us eternal life. It's not his death that promises us life, it's his resurrection. Jesus' resurrection life is what grants us eternal life. It's what makes us alive eternally as forgiven sinners instead of dead as forgiven sinners. It's what promises that our bodies will be redeemed as well as our spirits. Jesus' death was a singularity that only he could perform. It was a willful act of giving up his life (no, we didn't kill Christ; he gave up his spirit) at the hands of evil men who caused him unspeakable physical suffering in the process. He cancelled the debt of sin. His resurrection, however, was the promise of power for us. He became our sin so we could become his righteousness. His life becomes ours. His spirit resides in us. This miracle could never have happened if Jesus had not risen from death and ascended to his Father. All the power of our salvation and our new births is dependent upon Jesus' resurrection. These are things that have begun to become clear in a deep and profound way as we have been studying Hebrews. I can wholeheartedly say that I did not learn these amazing truths as an Adventist. Even though I heard the words about the resurrection, the truth of its power and central position in my salvation was never mentioned. Only my being righteous in the judgment was mentioned as central to my salvation. My personal belief is that while Adventists "believe in" the resurrection, on the whole they do not perceive its deep and profound centrality in the new birth of a Christ follower. But one cannot well say, "We don't celebrate Easter because we believe that our sanctification is the key to salvation. Furthermore, to honor the resurrection on Sunday would be breaking the 4th commandment." That would be considered cultic. Instead, the public argument is, "We don't celebrate Easter because we disagree with the pagan overtones of the day." And no one can argue with that reason. I am not trying to be hostile to Adventists. Most of my husband's and my families are Adventist. These are people we love. But I believe that it is necessary to tell the truth. I understand that individual Adventists perceive the importance of the resurrection. But I also understand the nature of the deception that colors every Adventist practice, even those of the most liberated or evangelical. Only as one begins to embrace one truth at a time as the Holy Spirit reveals it, and only as one consequently begins to walk away from Adventism does the true nature of the Adventist deception begin to be clear. I could never have imagined how different Easter would look after I left the Adventist church. And as sincere as many Adventists are, one can be sincere about a deception. I believe that the real reason Adventists as a whole do not celebrate Easter is not truly the pagan overtones. Rather, it's Adventism's deep, preconscious, undefined lack of respect for Jesus' shed blood and the power of his resurrection life. Jesus did an unthinkable thing when he died. He did an unimaginable thing when he rose to life. He did an "impossible" thing when he granted us the indwelling Holy Spirit. We are one with him! Praise God for salvation! Praise Jesus for his shed blood! Praise the Holy Spirit for resurrection life! "Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost"! Colleen | ||
| Chyna |
The reason I have theorized that Adventist do not value the resurrection as shown by their decided lack of celebrating the resurrection is because through former adventists I have met here, I have surmised that the deepest fault of Adventism is self-salvation: salvation of works. we see this from: health message, to keeping the sabbath, to not drinking alcohol, to not dancing, to the IJ message etc. al. this is why I made the connection because if you don't feel like Jesus paid it all for you, because you are constantly maintaining your salvation, then Christ's resurrection isn't as important; because it seems from former adventists' testimonies that the whole picture of Salvation is lacking for Adventists. that they are still clinging to the Old Covenant. that is my substantiation for my line of thinking. Thank you Colleen for your posts, I always find them enrichening, in Him, Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
also Valerie, Jesus didn't pull any punches when He referred to Pharisees as: "White washed tombs" and vipers asps, whatnot. and to various opinions, from SDAs themselves have told me that SDAism is Pharisitical. no one so far on this site to my knowledge has really blasted Adventists. to my knowledge we are against the institution not the people. although we all have experienced various hurts and frustrations with those that are still currently in SDAism. I don't believe that FAF is full of vitriol directed at SDAs. I believe FAF is full of people lending support to one another, and discussing the various things that made them into Formers, and discussing what things are happening in the current SDA church/education system/politics etc. al. whether the consensus is good or bad. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Lori |
To all: Valerie, I understand your assertion that we be civil and not judgmental toward the Adventist. However, you can separate the belief from the person. You can judge the belief without judging the individual (after all we can not know the motive and intents of the heart) BUT we can know the validity of a statement or a stand as compared to the word of God. And, I don't think that you can read any of these post and make the statement that they are pointing fingers at an individual and passing judgment on an individual. Christ was real up front with the Pharissees and the Sadducees. He didn't "walk on egg shells" around them. He perspiciously stated the truth. We can perspiciously state the truth as well. And we can also perspiciously state the false doctrine. False doctrines are identified in scripture. Easter is the representation of the "Day of our Lord". The Day that our New Life could begin in Him!!!! To ignore or minimize this Day--is to ignore and minimize the completion of the work of the cross. The Adventist beliefs are SO directed to the Sabbath that they MUST NOT direct any attention to the day of Sunday (even though it is the day that Christ arose from the dead, the day of victory over death, the day of victory over sin, the day of salvation, the day of His blood making us free-his death meant nothing until he was victorious over death). Val, you were adamant about the doctrine of election-how important this doctrine was in connection to salvation. Isn't the resurrection of our Lord just has important? Why belittle it? Why protect those who choose not to publicly rejoice in it? Isn't that what it boils down to? Adventist chose NOT TO publicly participate in the celebration of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Isn't publicly proclaiming these things part of us "knowing our brothers and sisters IN CHRIST"? There is no reason that Adventist should abstain from this Christian aspect of Easter celebration. They abstain because IF they did participate it would compromise their Sabbaths. It would bring attention to a SUNDAY. And this CAN NOT happen for any reason!!! We can be friends with the Adventist but we don't have to be friends with their doctrines. To be friends implies that you lovingly embrace them. I can lovingly embrace an Adventist individual--I did this week, I had lunch with a dear friend who is an Adventist. However, I did not lovingly embrace her doctrines--she lead the conversation to religious issues and I was not "friends" with the doctrines, I scripturally stated my stand against them. However, we still embraced each other in love when we part. I abhor the doctrines of Adventism--some of them worse than others. And I WILL NOT placate the Adventist by pretending to agree with them on doctrines that are not scripturally sound just so they will feel more comfortable. Adventist need to feel uncomfortable enough to search for the truth. Isn't that what happened to all of us? Wasn't there a point that a certain doctrine rubbed you the wrong way, made you uncomfortable enough to search for a new position? Adventist abstain from Easter for one purpose only-the bottom line is they CAN NOT compromise their Sabbath stand by acknowledging a Sunday (just because it was the day Christ had victory over death)! | ||
| Lori |
I'll have to say that Valerie's point was "lost" on me until just a moment ago. I know what the basis for the Adventist belief concerning this is. But it doesn't really matter what the basis for their belief is. The point is: that Romans 14 allows for people to have "a more sacred day". Just as it allows for others to have "all days the same". This being "the reality" (because scripture is always reality and our experience doesn't change the reality of scripture) then we must conclude that it doesn't matter how we feel about it or why they do what they do. It is still done "unto God" and as Romans 14:22 says, "whatever you believe about these things keep it between you and God". In regards to this chapter(Romans 14)we step over our bounds as Christians to argue over this subject. Valeries' perseverance has finally caused me to "see" my error. | ||
| Sherry2 |
As an SDA still about 12 months ago, and just heading out the door, this site was one I came to. I found the "To Adventists Friends" some of it harsh, but some of it, even though I left ticked off, got me questioning and digging deeper. I had already sent in my resignation letter, but there were some doctrines I still clung to. This site has helped me see things differently. The Sabbath was one of those issues. My husband and I just had a long talk the other day. I asked him why he would not become a member of any other religious body, even the Church of God 7th Day, which believes in everything he does, minus the Remnant Church idea, EGW, and the IJ. For the sake of unity in our family, why couldn't we at least go there. I told him I would be willing to go to any Christian church with him - his choice, but he would have us as a family regularly (I'm not talking about him visiting with me and I with him - I'm talking about a reg. place of worship as a family), and he says I'm the one causing the wall of seperation, not him. Even though he claims not to believe in EGW. It's all about the remnant church. This is a false gospel to me and must be stood against, and yet I am indeed called to love my enemies. And to seperate the doctrine from the person is something I have to get down on my knees every day about and ask God's help. I have not found this site to be against people, but against doctrine. I was on the outside looking in once upon a time. I speak from where I was. | ||
| Violet |
I agree, the Sabbath was an issue I clung to until the very end. If it was not for this group, Max where are you? I would of never of seen the light. The one area I have not dealt with is soul sleep, but the verse in Revelation about the souls crying out for their blood to be avenged keeps nagging at the back of my brain, so I am sure that is where the Lord is leading me to study next. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Violet, soul sleep was the last doctrine (well, soul sleep followed by hell) that I dealt with, too. You can trust Jesus to lead you to what he wants you to read and study next. Sherry, what you have stated about this site not being against people but about taking a stand against false doctrine is our goal for this web site. I don't think that Adventism is more false than other false doctrines. It's just the one that is closest to us, and sometimes we have to address what we have the most experience with. Since I've come to believe that God really is sovereign and that he wastes nothing and redeems everything, I've come to see that my past Adventism even fits into his plan for me. I praise him for it, because the New Covenant makes so much more sense having lived under the old one for so long! I praise him that he is faithful and completes the work begun in each of us. I praise him that he leads us to truth as we want it and trust him. Sherry, I feel for your dilemma with your husband. I understand what you're up against. I will keep him and you in prayer. By the way, for what it's worth, I have a friend who has commented with me over the past several years that it seems as if spiritual attacks become more intense around Christmas and Easter. Maybe it's not always so, but it does seem that these are particularly vulnerable times. I'm sure that there could be many psychological explanations for such observations, but I also believe that Satan wants to distract people from the reality of the singularities associated with those times of remembrance. As Paul said in Ephesians 6:13, "Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand." I do pray for us all, and I praise him for those who come to this site and pray that they will see him and know him increasingly. Colleen | ||
| Tree077 |
After a week of being offline I just got caught up on all the messages you guys posted. I really appreciate your help! You guys are great. On the "paganism," thingy... I find this kind of funny, not b/c the SDA don't celebrate "Easter," (or the pagan god "Ester,") but the JWs claim the same idea...they don't want to partake in anything of pagan origin. Why is this funny? Just about everything in our Society has it roots in paganism in one form or another. JWs and SDAs don't celebrate Easter but I'll bank money that they use a calander or day planner. Do guys realize that days of the week and months of the year are named after pagan gods? I don't see to many SDA's or JWs making a beef about this, do you? I guess they have never consulted an Encyclopedia on these issues? This is what I call majoring in the minors. Another words, people like to feel as if they are contributing to their salvation by abstaining from various activites, foods, celebrations etc... this kind of behavior leads to SPIRITUAL ELITISM! The big NO NO, PRIDE! The very sin that caused Satan to get ousted out of heaven! I often wonder if these guys ever stop and ask themselves this; Is God really impressed with what I'M doing? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh before I forget, something I wanted to share with you guys that I realized while studying the law of God. It appears in Scripture that the ones who PUSH the law (nomas)and insist that others "keep the law," are themselves the biggest law breakers! Paul (I think it was in Rom.) said that God is blasphemed by the Gentiles on account of them (the religious Jewish leaders,) interesting eh? It kinda took me for surprise! I love you all in Jesus Theresa Ü | ||
| Colleentinker |
Good point, Theresa! Speaking of Easter, on Friday this week our school has an all-morning chapel before we leave for Easter break. From 9-10:15 we meet for the first half entitled "Dead to Sin". From 10:30 to 11:35 we meet for the second half entitled "Alive in Christ." They even have communion for the school body. It's streamlined--there are tables on both sides of the chapel with large bowls of bread chunks and bowls of grape juice for dipping the bread. (Dipping the bread in the wine is called "intinction", I learned from my Episcopalian friend when I went to Ash Wednesday services with her a few years ago.) It's really a wonderful way to start vacation, and it leaves me very conscious of Passion Week which begins next week. It's really a moving and wonderful thing to think about what Jesus did each day of the last week of his life, and to review those events as the week goes by. I am thankful for the blessing and privilege of experiencing the Passion week and the resurrection in new ways--with new meaning! Colleen | ||
| Violet |
Colleen, I am so new to Easter and the celebration of it. Do you know of a web site I could get information about Passion Week, I would love to start this with my girls, ages 11 and 8. I feel like I am floundering as a mother in teaching them the Bible right now. It use to be so easy, send them to a Adventist school and church and they taught it all, now its up to me. I do not even know how to start with my 8 year old. It threw me off the other day as I was talking about Enoch, she goes "Who?". I felt so bad but I threw out all the Bible Story Books ect now I am lost, can you or any one else help? I never knew how dependent I was on the ABC! | ||
| Jtree |
Violet, here ya go. I have a web site just what you were looking for, songs to sing, stories to share with your children. Poems, the whole 9 yards for you. ENJOY, Happy Easter, HE IS RISEN... http://members.tripod.com/~terryz2/indexeaster.html | ||
| Colleentinker |
Violet, we've found that our boys also respond to us simply reading Bible passages to them and then discussing them. You could also try reading the Passion Week stories from the gospels. Matthew 26 begins with the plot against Jesus. The other gospels have some other details as well. Have you seen the Visual Bible's video series of the book of Matthew? It is absolutely wonderful. The script is only the NIV book of Matthew, but the acting and the interpretation are phenomenal. There is a ministry in Texas that makes this 4-tape set available for about $40. Darrell--are you reading this, and can you help us with the name and address of that ministry? The tapes are also available from Christian bookstores, but they're much more expensive there. Madeleine L'Engle also has a wonderful book about the life of Jesus illustrated by Giotto reproductions (he was a 13th century Italian artist who painted church art). The book is called "The Glorious Impossible", and it is beautiful and wonderfully written. Some Christian book stores sell Madeleine, some don't. You can also buy or order her books from regular book stores. | ||
| Doug222 |
You can also purchase a Chronological Bible. I have the Narrated Chronological Bible by F. LaGard Smith. For the gospels, it combines the record from all four gospels into one book (while preserving the integrity of the scriptures). The portion on the Passion Week actually takes you through each day of the week. I hadn't thought about it before, but I think this year, I may study each day's events as part of my morning devotions. Anyway, the Chronological Bible, which costs about $35 (hardback) is a worthy investment because you can use it all year round. I have been using it for my personal devotions. Instead of reading the epistles in the order they are printed in your Bible, you get to read them in their historical perspective. So instead of reading the entire book of Acts, you read Acts until Chapter 15 (the Jerusalem Council) then you switch over and read Galatians. You then come back to Acts. It contains minimal commentary at the beginning of each book. I highly recommend the Bible. It is written in the NIV Translation so it is not that difficult for kids to understand. In His Grace, Doug |
